Albert Einstein and AS

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Hi, all. Nice to meet you. I didn't know this forum existed...though how I missed it, I don't know. I'll spare you the gory details, but my oldest son has sensory integration dysfunction, my middle son is full-on ASD (I call it "regular autism," which typically produces giggling fits at IEPs--NTs have senses of humor too!), and my father was almost certainly an Aspie. And I...oh sh*t, did I not just say I'd spare you? I haven't spared you. Sorry.

Anyway, I'm going to be eating this forum right up. Visually, I mean. I am glad to have found it.

I wanted to have a discussion about Albert Einstein. I have been Googling something in particular today and came across "Albert Einstein had AS" over and over...AND OVER again. This drives me CRAZY. Einstein had a speech delay. He could not have had AS. He could have had ASD somewhere along the curve or spectrum or under the umbrella or what-have-you. Sure.

But saying he was an Aspie with speech delay is like saying "So and so has 20/20 vision, except she's nearsighted. But what she DOES see is super-pixilated so that proves she has 20/20 vision!"

Hope that makes sense.

Einstein spoke, according to written family accounts (v. myth and rumor), at a little over 2.5 years of age in response to his new sister coming home from the hospital and BTW, said NOTHING about soup being cold or toast being burned, which is another myth. Sure, Aspies can have trouble with language up one end and down the other, as far as syntax...appropriateness...voice...inflection. BUT they are not DELAYED initially in their speech...period.

Why does this annoy me so much? Because it underlines the pervasive belief that "regular" autistic people are morons; hence a smart person could not possibly have just ASD. He or she must have had the far more fashionable and inherently brilliant (huh?) Asperger syndrome.

No. Sorry. One AS criterion is that there be no intellectual delay but there's nothing saying the person must be a genius, either...simply that he or she is not intellectually delayed (what once upon a time was called "mentally ret*d").

I am almost positive I have undiagnosed AS and I am a freaking moron, so...my point is proven right there. I'm not technically intellectually delayed, no. But don't ask me to count higher than 20--I only have two hands and two feet...give a girl a break. Nor did I know until yesterday (I am 42 years old, BTW) that Canada was so...big. Where did I first notice this? On a Bigfoot documentary.

Yes. Seriously. (No, I don't actually believe in Bigfoot.)

Meanwhile, my middle son is ASD, definitely not AS (still very very speech delayed at age 6), but I swear he can already run circles around me with math.

Okay. What say you all on the subject?

It wasn't until just before last year that I came out about being autistic. Until very recently (and in many cases still is) autistic disorder has been considered a form of mental retardation. I'm a computer programmer, electronics technician, and locksmith. I am also a Biblical scholar. I don't think I have done so badly for being a "ret*d."

actually, one of my reasons-for-grumble is the distinction between low and high functioning. seems to have to do with whether someone uses "language" or not--language also narrowly defined as "some form of communication which NT's can comprehend." seems to me there's a very specific bias there: how assimilated can one be?

that having been said: i do tend to obsess over various distinctions. i agree. speech delay is considered a sign of ASD, not AS. that's my two cents, anyway.

Yes--my point exactly! It makes me CRAZY when people describe, or hint at, AS as "the smart form" of autism. This presupposes that AS means genius--untrue; and that ASD means intellectual delay--untrue.

The fact that AS criteria include no intellectual delay does not mean that AS people are all geniuses--and does not mean that all (or even most...or many) ASD people have intellectual delay. Gaaaaaaaah. But this idea is so incredibly pervasive that Einstein "had to be" AS...as if it were a compliment...and NOT ASD...heaven forbid.

This is a pet peeve of mine...on so many levels. I suspect mostly in defensiveness of my son.

Thanks for responding.

Last edited by NowhereWoman on 02 Jul 2009, 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Exactly. But people figure he "had to have" AS and not ASD because he was, well, smart.

This idea is like nails on a chalkboard to me. Who doesn't it denigrate? It's implying that ASD people are delayed--well, except for "savants--like Rainman!" (GAAAAAAAH) and AS people are "all WEIRD geniuses" "like Einstein--so be grateful that's what your child 'has' (or "...what you 'have')!"

No. And no.

Class dismissed.

I even have had medical personnel tell my mom that they think I have Asperger's. This make my mom as mad as hell. She is quick to tell them that I have "classical" autism. I mean Aspergers is an autism spectrum disorder, but like others here have said, it does not mean that all Aspies are geniuses, or that all of us "Kanner's" auties are ret*d. To tell the truth, I wish there was no official separation between Aspergers and autistic disorder.

Know what drives ME crazy? People who come into these forums convinced that their experience, or the book(s) they've read or whatever their individual magic charm, has somehow wondrously blessed them with a psycho-therapeutic pedigree that stretches all the way back to Freud and Jung and supersedes any and all other wisdom. Take a chill pill.

I don't know whether Einstein was an Aspie or not. I remember an interviewer asking him why he wore the same suit every day and Albert answered that he didn't - he kept identical suits so he wouldn't have to waste time each morning deciding what to wear. That's about as Aspergian as any thought process I've ever heard uttered - not just because he'd found something he was comfortable with and stuck with it endlessly - but I also completely understand the maddening mental circles one can get trapped in when faced with even the most mundane decision-making. Don't get behind me at Arby's.

Does my experience prove anything about Einstein? Hardly.

But Al's speech delay doesn't either. The only difference between those with Asperger Syndrome and those with High Functioning Autism is that speech delay, and now many in the field seem to be of the mind that there is no essential difference between the two forms, meaning the speech delay is a completely separate issue.

Other than the fact that television sitcom writers are using the phonetic semi-pun ASS-BURGERS to ridicule those of us with a disorder they can't even be bothered to look up, I can't imagine what's given you the idea that AS is in any way 'fashionable'. I share your frustration with the intellectually lazy public assumption that autism is virtually synonymous with Downs Syndrome, but I don't feel that the world treats me with any extra dose of respect because my autism is at the High Functioning end of the spectrum - less in fact, because they can't imagine that anyone so articulate could possibly have a problem. I'm just weird, and easy to take advantage of. No problem for anyone there.

That would drive me crazy, too! Luckily, I am none of what you describe above, nor have done what you describe above; so shall I halve that chill pill to share with you? I haven't decided "what (I) read" or "(my) experiences" determine whether or not Albert Einstein had a speech delay, and never said I did. It is his family who gave written accounts of the issue and it is their accounts I rely on to say that, as far as we know, Albert Einstein had a speech delay. (Ergo, who, again, is the one who's playing "pop specialist" by disregarding actual accounts from actual people, rather than surmising based on a whole lot of blogs on the internet?)

As for "my experiences," I was attempting to give a background/introduction as nobody here knows (knew) me. (Hey. Where's that chill pill again? Go ahead, they're small.)

(psst...and, quick correction to another comment you made in your post: No, speech delay is not the "only" criterion that draws that thick black magic marker line between AS and ASD; lack of intellectual delay must also be present for the AS diagnosis, but is not required for the ASD diagnosis. )

Guessin' your an Aspie based on the defensive reply? (Another edit: God, I am really not expressing myself. By this I don't mean Aspies are defensive, though I am, heh...I mean the response to my saying I am distressed at the higher status some/many professionals and parents alike seem to give AS...this is just my assumption...I am guessing here, but I did want to clarify that.) Anyway, nice to meet you.

Oh...ETA: Now I see what got you so hot and bothered. My "fashionable" comment. It was tongue-in-cheek. I have seen (yes, this is MY experience...which apparently either A) counts for absolute squat or B) somehow means I'm dreaming I'm the second incarnation of Jung) parent after parent proudly proclaim that his/her child "isn't autistic...he has Asperger syndrome...just like Einstein!". Yes, it IS the fashionable new way to say that one's child, or sometimes oneself, isn't "just" the "standard" form of autistic--which the majority of the NT world seems to think means either Rain Man or, for those of us who are over 35, Sonrise.

It is, in other words, and in my view, a way to cause separation, status, a "good/bad", a "high-functioning/low functioning"...a "he has a future/he has nothing at all, poor kid, if only he were another Einstein", not necessarily accurate delineation. As I see it...this separates, rather than unites (or barring that, at least accepts) different neurological states. And yes. That absolutely bothers me. I think it bothers a lot of people.

Hope this explains everything.

Last edited by NowhereWoman on 02 Jul 2009, 9:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

So do I, not the smallest reason being even the professionals can't seem to tell the difference...so is there one, really? Okay, Asperger stated the people he observed had no speech delay and no intellectual delay. But what does that mean? He could just have been pulling a group out of a larger group...much as...well, not much as, I'm oversimplifying, but, as if I were to say you're only autistic if you meet certain criteria AND have sleep disturbances...or meet all the criteria but aren't a short height for an adult...or something like that.

Also, effectively, is there a difference? I mean practically? My ASD son has more life skills than all the other children in his class but he's the one who was "gently" pushed out this year because he stims (oh heaven forbid). There are two DXd Aspies in the class who are wonderful, sweet and whose life skills, well, never mind. Meanwhile there's a classically autistic little girl who remains nonverbal and seems to have few life skills, and a boy with ADHD who can't make friends at all...the definition just doesn't always fit a smooth line from "low functioning" to "high functioning" to, you know, passing...IMO. So I can't see how useful it could be...but I CAN see how harmful it can be sometimes...not the least toward the kids who, despite appearances, really are listening to what the adults around him or her are saying.

I find the division often either self-made, or gently handed over by doctors who are shocked that an ASD person could be "so smart!" or allow you to burn toast without him shrieking and hitting his head, and therefore saying, "We're going to re-DX your son, Mrs. H. He has Asperger syndrome. I mean he's just so...smart."

Gets my goat...again, not for me, but probably out of defensiveness for my son...or at least that's what initially made me notice it. Now, it seems like it's the same bad information passed on again and again...even by professionals. I mean, Doctors X, Y and Z...if you're not even going to follow your own criteria, why put the labels on at all?

That's how I see it and that's how I came across this forum, actually.

Last edited by NowhereWoman on 02 Jul 2009, 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I also wanted to make mention that, yes, I am partially "self-taught" in what I know (or what the latest everchanging data is) on sensory integration issues simply because this stretches back for me nearly 30 years, starting with my father and moving on to my oldest son, now 23, whom nobody on earth could help. That was back in the days when you had to actually call and speak to doctors and go to a real library. J remains un-DXd to this day...and completely unable to live with another human being. (ETA: But C does have a diagnosis; "classic" or sometimes "Kanner" autism.) I love him to death, he's a bright light and funny.

Non-DXd doesn't mean green, inexperienced, self-inflated or even wrong. Not always. I do feel defensive right now, so that's why I sound it...because I am. I won't pretend that one post didn't hurt my feelings but OTOH...maybe it came off really...wrong somehow. I think I was pretty explanatory and am willing to discuss this further with anyone who asks. I wrote how I feel and it remains how I feel.

You won't be looked down on around here for being self-taught. A lot of us are self-taught, and it's not at all uncommon for an autistic with a special interest to get to the level of understanding that someone educated formally would only get at the post-graduate level. It's not like you have to have a school to learn. The sort of focus you get with an autistic mind often makes it happen nearly automatically, just because it fascinates you so much. I'm not saying we are all genius scholars; some of us have special interests in non-academic areas, and others (me included) switch special interests often and don't spend a lifetime studying one thing; some of us aren't really good at academics to begin with.

Einstein? Yes. Classic autism, technically; though like many classic autistics he would have been clinically indistinguishable from Asperger's as an adult. Huge amount of intelligence, and huge amount of focus, and a special interest in the right area. That combination made him a very good physicist. Lots of people who made great scientific discoveries and started new trends in art, music, and literature have atypical brains of some sort. It's not that they are smarter than people with typical brains; it's that they tend to think in ways that most people don't think, and so will think of new things rather than old things--new concepts which aren't necessarily any more complex than the well-known, but simply located in new territory that nobody has thought of before. An atypical brain is more likely than a typical one to do that, so it makes sense that the neurologically odd should be over-represented among pioneers in just about every field.

Great thoughts, Calista. Thank you.

Yup, I have interests too. Right now I've been interested in post-Roman European history (pre-William of Normandy England, specifically, approx. 430AD-1066AD as the scholarly "cutoff" date--but I'm not picky, I've investigated the rest of European history of the era too...just not as much) since (counting back) 1998. Oh, my gosh. I had not realized it had been that long. But before that, it was Indigenous American history, though I have no Native American blood. That was from...I don't know. 1987 (roughly) until 1998. I guess I switch every 11 years! Time to find a new obsession...

Though I've splintered off and have taken an interest in the Black Death (then simply called "the Pestilence" or very occasionally, "the Plague"), a slightly later development. I have any number of books on the subject. It's kind of neat to meet up with other people who have just certain similarities.

Sorry to get off-track there...

Hmm. I forgot to include my general "It is impossible to diagnose a historical figure who lived and died before the diagnosis was properly defined and was never evaluated for it." Oh, well, consider it added. Einstein "was probably autistic" but there is no way to tell for sure because we can't very well resurrect him and plop him down in a psychiatrist's office....

Yes, agree. I think that's part of my beef with this...the seemingly unilateral decision on the part of the (loudest segment of the) professional community (they can't ALL feel this way) that "Einstein HAD AS". Is that so? My intent wasn't to prove that he definitely didn't (which, as you say, I can't!) but rather to say that there is at least evidence that whatever he had, it probably wasn't AS simply due to eyewitness recollections of his speech delay.

So...I can't say Einstein was definitely ASD at all, nor can anyone. It just gets my goat that this "professional" decision has been made that "Einstein had Asperger's", and this among the medical community...despite the fact that, although there's no evidence at all of what he definitely did "have" (if anything), there IS written documentation supporting that he almost certainly DIDN'T have AS (the speech delay recollections).

And that, jutting from this possibly or even probably incorrect assumption, the decision--spoken or unspoken--among "pros" and parents (and people) alike that AS is "the smart" form of autism or even "not autism" at all...and that Aspies are geniuses and ASD people are...well...never mind, I can't go on with that, again, at that point it gets/feels very personal because of my son.

This oddly backward-feeling "delineation" has cost my son speech and other programs that were "only meant for non-autistic kids"...while AS kids who had MORE behaviors and more difficultly learning and retaining than my son, stayed on...so my son didn't get the help he needed when we needed it. (Yes, we fought it. Yes, we had an advocate. Yes, we lost.) So it's not just a matter of me or other parents or AS or ASD people grumbling...this is a serious issue that is seriously causing problems and is almost absolutely causing a sort of "bias" in the medical community that trickles down to how a child is or isn't helped, and how an adult is or isn't treated. I feel it's important and more than just a rant.

Hope that makes sense.

A delay in the acquisition of speech doesn't necessarily rule out AS (as after all, many institutions use Gillberg's AS criteria, which allows for such; not to mention that Hans had people with delayed speech in his extended group).

But anyway, it's more likely that he had Schizoid PD rather than AS. This is going by memory; his reciprocal social interaction seemed fine to me. I'll check out some clips of him interacting later.

But I many times have come across in many forms of information NOT WIKIPEDIA lol that aspergers' sufferers don't neccessarily have speech delay I have asked two well informed specialists on this and both said not neccessarily I am unsure I spoke at 2 I think which counts for sspeech delay I think it may of been older I might be meeting my dad for further information as I suspect he is an aspie