Dealing with temper and violence

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Moderator Note: this post is a split from this thread: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt129284.html; the first two paragraphs have been left there, and the lower part split here.



That being said, at almost 10 years old, we are still struggling with my son's temper and his violence, and I'd love some feedback from parents who have dealt with that. Outside of the school year he's does OK at home - but today, we had a playdate where there was play wrestling, and he got upset and, without saying anything, punched his poor playmate in the temple as hard as he could. He has some kind of sensory boundary issues that set him off with physical play, but they are very unpredictable (he'll go for months without hitting anyone, then suddenly we're in the Principal's office)

At home, he's hitting myself and my husband less - especially now that school's out (his anxiety level is extreme during the school year, and he tends to direct that mostly at us) During the school year, if he's in a "mood" he will hit us whenever he hears the word "no" or doesn't get his way. While it looks like defiance, to me it seems like an automatic reaction, almost seperate from him somehow: I used to divide his temper tantrums into "grand mal" and "petit mal," in my head, because there is something seizure-like about them, even though there is definitely an aspect of him trying to have his own way.

Our standard response to any kind of hitting is that he loses privileges for a day, and social privileges (playdates) for the week - and if he hits me (which was a serious problem last year) I don't hug or touch him for 24 hours, which has had some positive effect although it is very hard. We seem to be chipping away at this behavior, but he is really suffering socially, mostly because the other kids are scared of him.

Has anyone else experienced this? How did you handle it? Any Aspies with ideas?

All I can say is we are in the same boat. My son is only 5, and he really only hits me. My husband has 0 tolerance for this. I have tried to explain to my husband that he has a lack of impulse control, but my husband just thinks he is being defiant.

I would also love to hear of any suggestions for discipline. So far we just take away privileges, but I might try the no hugging or touching for 24 hours. I am not sure if I can do it though!! !

Momsparky, I think you'll find some feed back in other threads, as well, but here I'll address some of your specific questions.

On the play wrestling situation - don't allow it. My son is NOT allowed to play wrestle. As you noted, something trips. Kids like ours have boundary issues. My son has been taught to stay out of certain situations because history has taught that he cannot handle them, and play wrestling is one. He is responsible for staying out of the situation, although I know it can be hard to do so at times. He is given the "out" of simply telling kids his mom does not allow it, and I'll back him up on that. I will also tell kids like my daughter's friends that they are not allowed to chase and play-tease my son and do all those other things little girls like to do to boys for the simple reason that I know my son cannot handle it. I tell my daughter's friends that if they do that stuff they will end up hurt, and they won't have my sympathy, because they've been warned (my son still gets a consequence).

We do have standard consequences for hitting in our household less because they work than that they are needed to send a consistent message that hitting is serious, and not to be treated lightly.

At age 10 your son should be learning to monitor his own moods and stress levels, and take responsibility for them. Teach him steps for calming himself down, and for extracting himself from difficult situations. Keep an eye out yourself for the triggers, and help him with the monitoring. Help him avoid trigger situations, and help him figure out what they are. Encourage him to engage in self-calming behaviors like stimming at socially acceptable times and places (at home). Give him a process (which he should be involved with choosing), and teach him to use it. You aren't going to be everywhere with him, so he needs something beyond statements and lessons - he needs tools and a process.

Angelbear, at 5 I found physical restraint effective (using that term really makes me hate it, however). I held my son's arms so that he could not harm me or himself, saying, "you may NOT hit me." If he needed to exert beyond that, I could sit him in my lap facing outward and hold his arms straight jacket style. The message was, "I will let you go when you have gained control. You may NOT hit me" My son hated that, but it was effective. I could feel it when he finally surrendered his anger, and then we could talk about what triggered the outburst.

DW, I don't want to hijack this thread - I did some searches, but could you point me in the direction of the threads you're thinking of?

I really appreciate your feedback - and this is what we're moving towards. However, the one roadblock is the something that never I never thought would be the problem: my son refuses to acknowledge his own difference in any way. Whole new thread, I know.

Wow - Momsparky, are you at my house with my son?

He's 10, much more stable when school's out and has some sensory trigger to violence. There are two types of meltdown. One that is slow building and he just wants to be rescued by ME. If that doesn't happen, he will eventually go into full meltdown. It's a problem with school because school makes him anxious (my words not his) and he sneaks to call home. If I don't come get him - he will meltdown. If there is social anxiety, he will stay longer than he should until he melts down. He cannot play with a group of children unsupervised.

Then, there is the sensory trigger. This comes in a few ways. One - if he takes a surprise hit to the head, a ball hits him, an accidental push - he immediately triggers. It is a full blown violent outburst. There is no "burn" period. It is immediate. Then there is the other sensory discomforts... If we are at a loud place that he loves - he will slowly get agitated and often melt down once we get to a more quiet place. Also if he is hungry. He has an issue with bowel control, so he often has a little "waste" in his pants. He will usually melt down when it is suggested that he clean himself. I am not sure if that is sensory or anxiety based.I have described it as seziure like because once it starts....Oh my, my child is gone. Giving him his way does not fix it.

I have been told that this is Bipolar. I have been told that he's AS. I have been told that he's both. ARRRGGGHHHH! I don't really know how to manage.

When he hits and loses priveleges at school, it increases his anxiety and he melts again - So I'm unsure on how to manage.

HE has gone from melting down probably 300 minutes in May to 10 minutes in July. SO clearly school is an issue.

BTW - DS is allowed NO contact sports or games. He can't wrestle, he's a big kid and has been encouraged to go for footbal (um NO!), now even soccer has me worried. He is taking medication and at this point I'm not sure what works and what doesn't. I can tell you that my 140# kid violently melting down in public has me really worried about safety - his and everyones. I am worried that if the authorities are involved, he can be hurt.

I just don't know what to do.

I normally don't worry too much about hijacking threads - everything we deal with here tends to be sort of "one thing leads to another" - but since I have the tools, and since this is such a common problem, I've split it off (not as neatly as I would have liked to, but such is life).

I guess I was punting because I'm so swamped in real life right now, and because my memory gets hazy as I move past obstacle A and onto obstacle B, but it is a key issue and question, so we should spend some more time on it.

As you've already noticed, the tantrums that result in hitting do seem to have a direct correlation to the amount of life stress he is currently under, and don't seem to be strictly anger related. Even though there is always going to be some element of "trying to get one's own way," I don't think these are manipulative. They are most likely to be real autistic meltdowns, as in a reaction intended to show the child cannot cope. Hence, the volume of incidents increases when there is a lot of stress in his life, and the volume decreases when there is less. Sure, our kids can get angry just like other kids, but the whole process tends to be different, and they are not going to learn self-control just by being told they have to. I've often said that one way I knew the difference was this simple test: when your child has lost control, change your mind. Does it fix the mood? My NT daughter will pretty much instantly pick herself up and get out of the temper. My AS son cannot, and in fact will get even more upset. At that point the temper has nothing to do with the trigger. Could our kids learn to fake a temper to get their own way? Supposedly, but I've seen no evidence of it with my son. His eyes change when he loses it, and I know that look. In fact, the eyes tend to change a decent while before he has really lost control, and watching for that is how I was able to teach him what to watch for, and was able to teach him to pull out and self-calm.

Think about the situations that result in the loss of temper. What is going on? The first thing to do is to make sure you never say no for your own convenience, in situations that really are stressful for your son. I used to drag my son around on errands, and was always trying to squeeze in one more. Or stayed at an activity because his sister wanted to, even though he really wanted to go home. Many of these requests reflect real needs on the part of an AS child, even if we can't relate to it. Your child needs to feel that you are responsive to his needs, even as he learns that life means you can't always get what you want.

Tracker has an excellent discussion on these boards about the anatomy of a meltdown, where he breaks down all the steps and how your child might be feeling at that moment, and what he might be able to do. Hopefully with the new thread title and split tracker will find your post and respond.

The wrestling situation was different, as I posted about earlier, and I do bet it's sensory. Which is why I strongly recommend a zero tolerance rule for physical play. My son is happy with that rule, for the most part; even though sticking to it isn't always that easy - he is a sensory seeker, and very drawn to physical contact, and hugs can turn into wrestling matches on a dime.

The solidly positive thing about my son is that he has never, ever hit another child at school or at someone else's home. He has taken to heart that restriction, and works really hard at self-mitigating. Home, however, is his free place in more ways than one, and that means hitting does still happen here - not to me or my husband, but with that ever irritating and prodding sister Quite honestly, I've gotten tired of issuing strong consequences to him for it; she really does bait him, and he is feeling very much like he never gets a fair shake around her, so that is a whole other layer I'm trying to think through. BUT ... that is another topic. The point really is that rules can be different for behavior at home, and I think with our kids should be. They need a free place, although hitting does not have to be part of being free. Still, allowing everything else (bad manners, stims, pacing, weird noises, whatever) helps your child self-calm and reduces his sense of not having any other tools to use besides aggression. Make sure he has tools, and make sure he can freely express anger and frustration in a safe way. That really makes a difference.

I remember feeling, when my son was 10, that I was rushing against a deadline for getting it all under control. I dreaded him being bigger and stronger to where I could no longer physically constrain him in the way I suggested earlier for a 5 year old. I knew that issues often increased when the child hit puberty. All that panic came through in one of our IEP meetings at the school, at a time my son was having increasing issues with homework anxiety and tantrums related to homework, and the school was able to get us a referral to community mental health. After various meetings there, and a very long wait, my son was put in a group that was focused on anger management and social skills. I wasn't there; I don't know exactly what the group did, but it was very timely. Whatever message they gave him, it stuck and took hold and, more important, he felt like he was in control of his choices when it came to dealing with anger. He was the most socially able child in the group, and facing a lot less than the other kids; he saw that right off, and was grateful to be him. That group did make a difference at a very key point in time, but it is really hard for me to say how or why, because I was never a part of it. He went for one school year, every week. The non-profit wasn't able to continue anything similar the following year, but my son had graduated regardless. I remember when the counselor from the non-profit came to my son's first IEP at middle school (this had been set up by the elementary school) and gave her report; the woman running the meeting looked at me and said, "how did you get so lucky as to get her?" Apparently the non-profit is highly thought of but highly impacted. Which means ... let every professional around you know how concerned you are, that you really believe your child can be taught to manage it, but you don't have the professional expertise and you can't stop believing that there is something "more" out there that can be found to help your child help himself and that it doesn't come in a pill. One person on my son's IEP team contacted that non-profit and got my son "in," and I do believe those sessions were a valuable part of my son learning self control at a very crucial time.

My daughter has these issues also.

#1 I would never withhold love as punishment

What I did (and it seems to be working) is post THE RULES on posterboard in the house. The rules and consequences are clearly spelled out. If X happens then Y WILL happen. My daughter is very visual and rule bound so this has helped a lot. Also, I must abide by the rules also or I get the punishment as well (to prevent complaints of it being "unfair").

We also have a schedule and that schedule has greatly eliminated outbursts. We don't get her in a situation that produces meltdown (I schedule ALL errands when I am not with her). Now I know this is not a good long term strategy but my hope is to get her anxiety reduced to a point where she can learn to control as DW said.

My daughter also has the immediate triggers such as embarrassment or injury as KailuaMom mentioned. In those instances there is not a lot I can do but ride them out and learn from them. It is sad that we have to learn to let go of so many NT situations that our kids can't succeed in (such as the wrestling) but hopefully in time they'll be able to handle them better. Until that time, I limit triggers as much as humanly possible.

Thanks for splitting, DW, and for your very informational post - I especially appreciate the "test" because sometimes my husband still can't quite get his head around the idea that he's not being manipulative, and my son is just not able to stop a temper tantrum until he's done with it, period.

We do have a rule about no wrestling, but unfortunately he doesn't respect it at all. I think it is because it's "normal" for his peersto wrestle - and he wants more than anything to be, or pretend to be, "normal" (his perception, not mine) He seems to percieve that the rules that I make that involve accomodations for his differences are about me and not about him - though we do try to backtrack and show the consequences when we can talk about the violence calmly. I suppose I could come down harder on him for it, but since it involves a social situation where he'll be embarrassed in front of friends, and consequences with a delay don't seem to work for him, it's difficult to figure out how.

We took away all toys involving shooting projectiles: nerf guns, etc. and found that made playdates at our house go better. Unfortunately, we can't police what happens at other houses without disclosing why (and, frankly, the Moms who know - even the one who has an AS kid herself, don't police things like nerf guns and wrestling; many seem to think the problem is that I'm too strict.) On a somewhat better playdate, he can delay his reaction until we get there to pick him up, and then will have a "grand mal" tantrum either as we're leaving or on the way home, which often includes hitting us.

Pretty much never works with AS kids.

What does work is logic. You keep re-framing the arguments and the discussion until something gets through and sticks. It's a long and slow process, but it is the one that WORKS.

You'll need to break down the discussion into every little piece, especially when talking about something with a social component. What your son's goals are, and how his behavior is counter-productive in the big picture. Ask questions; provide information. See it from his side, and teach him to see it from yours.

momsparky wrote (in part): ...While it looks like defiance, to me it seems like an automatic reaction, almost seperate from him somehow: I used to divide his temper tantrums into "grand mal" and "petit mal," in my head, because there is something seizure-like about them, even though there is definitely an aspect of him trying to have his own way... - momsparky - The idea of temper associated with some kinds of seizures does occasionally come up at epilepsy discussion boards. In some cases some posters feel it is the seizure itself; in other cases, they may feel the medicine for epilepsy is the cause/part of the cause and may very slowly shift to another medicine for epilepsy. That's my understanding. It's a big topic - temper - and there can be a variety of reasons behind it all as I'm sure you know. - pgd

Sounds like my 4 year old. He is smiling and laughing the whole time he is hitting or doing whatever to me, but he will get mad and bite his brotheror hit him. I take away whatever the object of whatever caused him to lash out away from both of them. I was taking away outside time, but giving him some time to run and play outside makes bedtimes a little easier, andkeeps him from getting anxious in the house. Instead I unplug the tv and don't let him watch any of his shows for the day. It's slow process and I'm doing trial and error, but I don't know what else to do. I did find that when he would get overstimulated and I could see it by him basically vibrating with energy, I'd get down on his level, and tell him to breathe deeply and slowly, and focus only on me counting, and I would count to 10. That seemed to work enough to where I was able to take him grocery shopping for the first time since he got too big to sit in the cart. When he doesn't get his way, lately, he will try to go around whatever I did to thwart him. The most dangerous is when I tell him he cannot go outside. I was letting him go outside alone with me checking in on him frequently because he knew his boundaries. He started running to the area he wasn't allowed and I told him that he could not go back outside alone because he went where he wasn't allowed and lost my trust. I told him he could now go out tomorrow, but it would have to be when I finished housework and it was cool enough outside to have his baby sister outside. He climbed the gate we had set up, and ran out the back door one time, then the next time he unlocked the front door and ran out it when I was in the laundry room. *That* and his new obsession with razor blades scares me.

I found this song very useful when my son was little: http://new.music.yahoo.com/sesame-stree ... -173372116

We've since switched to an actual adult-style relaxation tape, but it was good to get the idea planted in his head.

My 8yr old daughter can become violent at times. What I find with her is that a lot of the times when she gets mad it's like the flood gates have been opened. Her level of anger isn't always in proportion to whatever has made her mad. I will take away priviledges or give her a timeout (1 min per year of age). Then when she has calmed down I try to talk to her about that it was okay to be mad, but it was not okay to do XYZ. This hasn't gone so well in the last few months because she's taken to covering her ears and refusing to listen. Her counselor said something about that she might be refusing to listen because she doesn't like to acknowledge any wrong doing (rule bound issues). Maybe if your son is open to listening you could help him understand how to control the "flood gates" so to speak - I truly think this is where a lot of my daughters problems are regarding anger and violence and it may be the same with your child. Now, if you figure out how to help him control his flood gate, let me know what you did!

Right - I think that definitely the key to this violence is some kind of prevention and self-regulation on his part.

FWIW, my son also covers his hears, and it does seem like defiance - but our counselor confirmed what I'd thought; at a certain point, he just can't take in information anymore, it makes it worse for him. Giving him time alone when we see him do that - sometimes a lot of time- seems to work; we just make sure to continue the discussion when he's calmer.

Yeah, when she gets really mad I don't bother to try and talk because it does no good. She gets overwhelmed by her emotions and her reasoning skills go out the window. I will wait until she is calmed down later in the day, sometimes even the next day and I will try and talk to her and up go those hands, lol. She will get mad at you for bringing it up. Apparently, I'm just supposed to let her mistakes go even though she calls others out on their mistakes with no hesitation. Hopefully she will outgrow the hands over her ears thing.

Maybe it's a 8 YO Asperger's girl thing? LOL. I'm trying to find some humor in our situation - it's either that or cry.
My 8 YO daughter does the same things. The hands on the ears when she just can't take anymore in. Unfortunately, the hands go over the ears while we are asking (and then telling) her that we need to go for a walk so that we can remove her from the situation before things get worse. She also has rule boundary issues - who am I kidding? She has issues with rules in general, and minimal respect for authority (I do think that we will soon hear that she also has ODD). Although, my thought on the oppositional/defiant thing is that it comes from her feeling like she's being "attacked" by whatever it is. A rule that she feels is unfairly applied, a request that seems illogical to her, a situation that isn't the same as what she had planned out in her mind - it all seems like an attack to her, and her instinct is to stand and fight, where a lot of kids might cower or withdraw. It gets her into to trouble - and I can't seem to get her to disengage from the situation, no matter what the consequence might be.
We also hear "if you just leave me alone, I'll calm down" - the problem is, she's usually already very agitated at this point, has already hit someone, and needs to be somewhere else to protect herself and who ever else might be within range, as we're not sure what's going to happen next. She *might* calm down, but she's just as likely to hit again and/or continue the behavior that got her into trouble in the first place.
We too have the issue with bringing things up later - she's immediately defensive and angry that we've brought it up. - she "knows all about it" and why do we keep bringing it up? We're "making me angry (or frustrated, she also uses that a lot)" by talking about it again.