| Who do you love unconditionally? |
| Nobody, not even myself. |
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36% |
[ 12 ] |
| Only myself |
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12% |
[ 4 ] |
| Only my kids |
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6% |
[ 2 ] |
| Only my family |
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21% |
[ 7 ] |
| My family + my friends |
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3% |
[ 1 ] |
| Only people of my nationality |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Everyone |
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21% |
[ 7 ] |
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| Total Votes : 33 |
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enrico_dandolo
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 21, 2011
Posts: 866
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 Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: | 
He's a neurotypical Hun  I'm an autistic Teuton. |
He's obviously a Mongol. There were no Huns in the Middle Ages. The Hunnic Empire crumbled after Attila's death in 453. The bow is characteristic of the Mongols, although presumably, Hunnic bows were probably similar. The armour on the dead guy doesn't look typical of the Late Antiquity either. The sword is medieval too.
Also, the other doesn't look like a Teuton at all. (I assume that by "Teuton" you mean a German, because he's not a member of the Germanic tribe defeated by Marius in the late 2nd century BC and he doesn't wear the white coat of the Teutonic Order.) To my knowledge, there was only one battle involving Germans and Mongols in Northern Europe, somewhere around 1245. I can't say much about the sword, the shield or the armour, but the helmet looks rather more Russian/Slavic. The Mongols (Golden Horde) mostly fought the Russians principalities in this region, so it is much more likely.
Last edited by enrico_dandolo on Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12710
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| enrico_dandolo wrote: | | He doesn't look like a Teuton at all. (I assume that by "Teuton" you mean a German, because he's not a member of the Germanic tribe defeated by Marius in the late 2nd century BC and he doesn't wear the white coat of the Teutonic Order.) To my knowledge, there was only one battle involving Germans and Mongols in Northern Europe, somewhere around 1245. I can't say much about the sword, the shield or the armour, but the helmet looks rather more Russian/Slavic. The Mongols mostly fought the Russians principalities in this region, so it is much more likely |
The Huns were in fact Mongols, with perhaps some Turkic ancestry. The did in fact battle Germanic peoples constantly.
As for Teuton - the word Teuton has come to mean anyone of Germanic stock and or language. The funny thing is, the Teutoni tribe defeated by Marius might have been Celtic (the jury has been out on that, and will doubtlessly never be resolved). But regardless, because the Teutoni had accompanied the Cimbri (who were either Germanic, of mixed Celto-Germanic origins, or at least of mixed culture), the Teutoni have lent their name to Germanic peoples in later centuries.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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enrico_dandolo
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 21, 2011
Posts: 866
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | | The Huns were in fact Mongols, with perhaps some Turkic ancestry. |
That would be conceptually confusing. Both came from the steppe in what is today Mongolia and had the same ethnic background, but at completely different eras, with 700 years in between. In fact, the Mongols were one of the many steppe tribes united by Genghis Khan in the early 13th century -- another being the Tatars, whose name is also applied generically. Saying Huns and Mongols are the same is trying to see too much continuity between the two: there are different phenomena by any standard, at least in European history. They were both Turkic peoples, as where most (all?) Central Asian nomadic conquering tribes.
Besides, apart from probably the first wave, the Huns were mostly a broad confederation of accultured people who accepted to join them -- Goths, Alans, Vandals, even Romans and Greeks. "Attila" is a Gothic name.
| Kraichgauer wrote: | | As for Teuton - the word Teuton has come to mean anyone of Germanic stock and or language. The funny thing is, the Teutoni tribe defeated by Marius might have been Celtic (the jury has been out on that, and will doubtlessly never be resolved). But regardless, because the Teutoni had accompanied the Cimbri (who were either Germanic, of mixed Celto-Germanic origins, or at least of mixed culture), the Teutoni have lent their name to Germanic peoples in later centuries. |
I know, I just don't like it! I will disagree until people stop using "Teuton" so wrongly. (I didn't know that they might be Celtic, however, interesting!) |
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CrazyCatLord
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 25, 2011
Posts: 2177
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| enrico_dandolo wrote: | | [Also, the other doesn't look like a Teuton at all. |
I didn't say the dead guy in the image was me I never took an arrow to the neck. But I have to admit that I don't really know if the guy with the bow is a Hun.
Last edited by CrazyCatLord on Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12710
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| enrico_dandolo wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | The Huns were in fact Mongols, with perhaps some Turkic ancestry. |
That would be conceptually confusing. Both came from the steppe in what is today Mongolia and had the same ethnic background, but at completely different eras, with 700 years in between. In fact, the Mongols were one of the many steppe tribes united by Genghis Khan in the early 13th century -- another being the Tatars, whose name is also applied generically. Saying Huns and Mongols are the same is trying to see too much continuity between the two: there are different phenomena by any standard, at least in European history. They were both Turkic peoples, as where most (all?) Central Asian nomadic conquering tribes.
Besides, apart from probably the first wave, the Huns were mostly a broad confederation of accultured people who accepted to join them -- Goths, Alans, Vandals, even Romans and Greeks. "Attila" is a Gothic name. |
Regardless, skulls of Huns are of a Mongolian type, and the description of the Huns left by the Romans fit an Asian type, regardless if they had gone by that name, or not. While the Hunnish king could draw on Germanic and Sarmatian tribes, as well as his own Hunnic warriors, it's doubtful that most non-Hunnish tribes would have had the same social standing in the confederation as the Huns had. After all, after Attila's death, the Germanic tribes ruled over by the Huns had successfully rebelled, after which the Huns disappeared into obscurity.
And to be sure, there was a great deal of acculturation that went both ways between the Huns and their Germanic vassals and allies. Attila had a Gothic name, and the Huns had adopted the higher material Germanic culture. But also, skull deformation practiced by the Huns is found among both east Germanic vassals, and west Germanic allies, such as the Thuringians. Even more, apparently Odavacer, the Germanic mercenary leader who had deposed the last Roman emperor in the west, and was declared King of Italy, was of mixed Hunnish and Germanic ancestry. Graves as far west as central Germany show how intermixing between Huns and Germans had been going on, probably among the Thuringians, who admired the martial skills of their Hunnic allies.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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enrico_dandolo
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 21, 2011
Posts: 866
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | enrico_dandolo wrote: | | [Also, the other doesn't look like a Teuton at all. |
I didn't say the dead guy in the image was me I never took an arrow to the neck. |
Oh... Quite true! My bad.
| Kraichgauer wrote: | | Regardless, skulls of Huns are of a Mongolian type, and the description of the Huns left by the Romans fit an Asian type, regardless if they had gone by that name, or not. While the Hunnish king could draw on Germanic and Sarmatian tribes, as well as his own Hunnic warriors, it's doubtful that most non-Hunnish tribes would have had the same social standing in the confederation as the Huns had. After all, after Attila's death, the Germanic tribes ruled over by the Huns had successfully rebelled, after which the Huns disappeared into obscurity. |
There were ethnic Greeks in Attila's direct entourage. (Or at least, there was at least one, AFAIK, as told by... some Greek chronicler whose name I have forgotten.) The Huns did not strongly discriminate on such criteria. Those who were useful to them and followed their practices were integrated to Hunnic society, whatever their background. This is to be understood as people who actually became Huns, not just their Germanic and other allies. As I understand it, the Confederation dissolved by lack of leadership, its constituent parts did not "rebel" in the way we understand it, and certainly not according to ethnic divisions. (I may very well be wrong, however, on that last point.)
Things were not so black and white as they appear today.
We are completely off-topic, however... |
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CrazyCatLord
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 25, 2011
Posts: 2177
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:16 am Post subject: |
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I should probably have picked one of these images (also by Angus McBride):
Picture resized
The top image shows Attila, an Ostrogoth warrior in Attila's army, and a captive soldier of the Bosporan kingdom. |
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enrico_dandolo
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 21, 2011
Posts: 866
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:20 am Post subject: |
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Indeed, these are Huns!
On an interesting note, during the two world wars, "Hun" was a derogatory term for... the Germans! |
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donnie_darko
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Age: 23
Posts: 1794
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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Aren't Celts and Germanics kind of the same people anyways? Being the first Celts came from Austria and the modern day Celts mostly speak a Germanic tongue (English) now? Genetically speaking, there is not a very large difference between the Irish and the Norwegians or Dutch. I will say the Welsh seem different though.
I've always thought the difference between Celts and Germanics was mostly linguistic and to a lesser degree cultural, they seem by and large the same people to me. Yodeling sounds quite similar to the way the Cranberries and other Celtic artists sing, their mythologies are both full of little people and Celts and Germanics look very similar physically too when it comes to light eyes and hair color and to a lesser extent, facial appearance. The Germans were largely Celts before Germanic languages spread from Sweden and so were the English, Dutch, and for that matter the French, Spanish and northern Italians too. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12710
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| enrico_dandolo wrote: | | CrazyCatLord wrote: | | enrico_dandolo wrote: | | [Also, the other doesn't look like a Teuton at all. |
I didn't say the dead guy in the image was me I never took an arrow to the neck. |
Oh... Quite true! My bad.
| Kraichgauer wrote: | | Regardless, skulls of Huns are of a Mongolian type, and the description of the Huns left by the Romans fit an Asian type, regardless if they had gone by that name, or not. While the Hunnish king could draw on Germanic and Sarmatian tribes, as well as his own Hunnic warriors, it's doubtful that most non-Hunnish tribes would have had the same social standing in the confederation as the Huns had. After all, after Attila's death, the Germanic tribes ruled over by the Huns had successfully rebelled, after which the Huns disappeared into obscurity. |
There were ethnic Greeks in Attila's direct entourage. (Or at least, there was at least one, AFAIK, as told by... some Greek chronicler whose name I have forgotten.) The Huns did not strongly discriminate on such criteria. Those who were useful to them and followed their practices were integrated to Hunnic society, whatever their background. This is to be understood as people who actually became Huns, not just their Germanic and other allies. As I understand it, the Confederation dissolved by lack of leadership, its constituent parts did not "rebel" in the way we understand it, and certainly not according to ethnic divisions. (I may very well be wrong, however, on that last point.)
Things were not so black and white as they appear today.
We are completely off-topic, however... |
Yes, I recall the Greek or Roman who had started out as a Hunnic slave, but had won his freedom, and thus became a dedicated Hun. I can't remember the name of the writer either, but he had met this man, as well had spent time in Attila's court, personally.
And actually, there had been a rebellion by the Ostrogoths and Gepids to free themselves from their Hunnish overlords after Attila had died, and all the Hunnish nobles and chiefs vied for power against Attila's legitimate heir.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12710
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| donnie_darko wrote: | Aren't Celts and Germanics kind of the same people anyways? Being the first Celts came from Austria and the modern day Celts mostly speak a Germanic tongue (English) now? Genetically speaking, there is not a very large difference between the Irish and the Norwegians or Dutch. I will say the Welsh seem different though.
I've always thought the difference between Celts and Germanics was mostly linguistic and to a lesser degree cultural, they seem by and large the same people to me. Yodeling sounds quite similar to the way the Cranberries and other Celtic artists sing, their mythologies are both full of little people and Celts and Germanics look very similar physically too when it comes to light eyes and hair color and to a lesser extent, facial appearance. The Germans were largely Celts before Germanic languages spread from Sweden and so were the English, Dutch, and for that matter the French, Spanish and northern Italians too. |
While there had been cultural similarities, the Germans and Celts had been different ethnic and linguistic groups. Genetically, the Celts are of the R1b haplogroup, while the Germanic peoples tended to be of a Pre-Celtic R1b subclade, as well as R1a (to a greater or lesser degree, depending where the tribe was located) from the eastern steppes, as well as haplogroup I1, which has it's origins in Europe's last Ice Age. To be sure, there were a lot of Celtic loan words in the Germanic languages, and there was a definite ethnic and linguistic contact zone on the Rhineland and the Low Countries where there was much intermixing between Germans and Celts often referred to as the Nordwestblock.
As for Austria - while this is today a German speaking country, of Germanic ethnicity (to one degree or another), this was hardly the case when it was the prehistoric cradle of Celtic Hallstatt civilization. The German speakers only came much later, after the fall of the Roman Empire in the west. Fragments of tribes, such as the Alamanni who had been refugees from Frankish expansion had settled there and neighboring Bavaria, while Longobards and Thuringians, part of whom had invaded north Italy, also colonized the region.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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donnie_darko
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Age: 23
Posts: 1794
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: |
While there had been cultural similarities, the Germans and Celts had been different ethnic and linguistic groups. Genetically, the Celts are of the R1b haplogroup, while the Germanic peoples tended to be of a Pre-Celtic R1b subclade, as well as R1a (to a greater or lesser degree, depending where the tribe was located) from the eastern steppes, as well as haplogroup I1, which has it's origins in Europe's last Ice Age. To be sure, there were a lot of Celtic loan words in the Germanic languages, and there was a definite ethnic and linguistic contact zone on the Rhineland and the Low Countries where there was much intermixing between Germans and Celts often referred to as the Nordwestblock.
As for Austria - while this is today a German speaking country, of Germanic ethnicity (to one degree or another), this was hardly the case when it was the prehistoric cradle of Celtic Hallstatt civilization. The German speakers only came much later, after the fall of the Roman Empire in the west. Fragments of tribes, such as the Alamanni who had been refugees from Frankish expansion had settled there and neighboring Bavaria, while Longobards and Thuringians, part of whom had invaded north Italy, also colonized the region.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Where do the English fit into this? Are they a mix, are they Germanized Celts, or are they straight up Germanic? Also I think a lot of these migrations were relatively small in number, I could be wrong but I would think the descendants of the original Celts of the Alps would be German speaking Austrians, Bavarians and Swiss today in the same place who gradually became Germanic, I don't think there was much if any migration from Austria of the Hallstatt people to Ireland, Scotland etc. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12710
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| donnie_darko wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: |
While there had been cultural similarities, the Germans and Celts had been different ethnic and linguistic groups. Genetically, the Celts are of the R1b haplogroup, while the Germanic peoples tended to be of a Pre-Celtic R1b subclade, as well as R1a (to a greater or lesser degree, depending where the tribe was located) from the eastern steppes, as well as haplogroup I1, which has it's origins in Europe's last Ice Age. To be sure, there were a lot of Celtic loan words in the Germanic languages, and there was a definite ethnic and linguistic contact zone on the Rhineland and the Low Countries where there was much intermixing between Germans and Celts often referred to as the Nordwestblock.
As for Austria - while this is today a German speaking country, of Germanic ethnicity (to one degree or another), this was hardly the case when it was the prehistoric cradle of Celtic Hallstatt civilization. The German speakers only came much later, after the fall of the Roman Empire in the west. Fragments of tribes, such as the Alamanni who had been refugees from Frankish expansion had settled there and neighboring Bavaria, while Longobards and Thuringians, part of whom had invaded north Italy, also colonized the region.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Where do the English fit into this? Are they a mix, are they Germanized Celts, or are they straight up Germanic? |
The English language has Germanic origins, brought over by invading tribes from the continent, such as the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, even some Franks and Scandinavians, and later Vikings. While the people of southwest England are genetically almost indistinguishable from North Sea Germanic groups, in particular the Frisians, other parts of England had remained largely Celtic it seems, with Anglo-Saxon overlords and their immediate retinues of warriors (with probably some women and children in tow) had enforced their language on the local Britons, who later came to consider themselves to be Anglo-Saxons, too. Wales had remained free from Germanic rule long enough, and thus still has preserved their language and ethnic identity up to modern times.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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donnie_darko
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Age: 23
Posts: 1794
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: |
The English language has Germanic origins, brought over by invading tribes from the continent, such as the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, even some Franks and Scandinavians, and later Vikings. While the people of southwest England are genetically almost indistinguishable from North Sea Germanic groups, in particular the Frisians, other parts of England had remained largely Celtic it seems, with Anglo-Saxon overlords and their immediate retinues of warriors (with probably some women and children in tow) had enforced their language on the local Britons, who later came to consider themselves to be Anglo-Saxons, too. Wales had remained free from Germanic rule, and thus still has preserved their language and ethnic identity up to modern times.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
So English people are basically the same as the Irish, Scottish and Welsh and for the most part not 'really' German, just more completely Germanised in a socio linguistic sense? |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12710
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| donnie_darko wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: |
The English language has Germanic origins, brought over by invading tribes from the continent, such as the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, even some Franks and Scandinavians, and later Vikings. While the people of southwest England are genetically almost indistinguishable from North Sea Germanic groups, in particular the Frisians, other parts of England had remained largely Celtic it seems, with Anglo-Saxon overlords and their immediate retinues of warriors (with probably some women and children in tow) had enforced their language on the local Britons, who later came to consider themselves to be Anglo-Saxons, too. Wales had remained free from Germanic rule, and thus still has preserved their language and ethnic identity up to modern times.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
So English people are basically the same as the Irish, Scottish and Welsh and for the most part not 'really' German, just more completely Germanised in a socio linguistic sense? |
Again, depending on which part of England you're talking about. As I said, southeast England is very Anglo-Saxon. I forgot to mention, northern England has a lot of Germanic blood, brought in by Viking colonists. But western England is very much Celtic in their heredity. Just the same, there has been so much intermixing since then, that Germanic and Celtic genes have spread throughout these differing areas.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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