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MissConstrue
Aquarius
Joined: Feb 05, 2008
Age: 26
Posts: 10333
Location: Anywhere but HERE!
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 Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Khan_Sama wrote: | | MissConstrue wrote: | Question-
Maybe this sounds just as ignorant as the topic but why Islam?
Doesn't that put women down if not more than Christianity from a female perspective?
Don't men have the upper hand in the religion by having more than one wife. Also if a woman is suspected of adultery or having sexual relations before marriage, isn't she automatically stoned to death or ostracized by family and friends?
Maybe I missed something here...  |
| Sophist wrote: | | To Christians, Muslims, and Jews women have traditionally been child-bearing chattle. |
Incorrect, if you study the social attitudes of pre-Islamic Arabia, you will understand that Islam liberated women. The reason why Muslim women are covered from head to toe, is quite simple really, to protect her modesty and so that men can treat her for who she is, a human being, and not an object. As for the multiple wives concept, Islam limited polygamy, the pagan Arabs had multiple wives and used to kill firstborn female babies, leading to an unbalanced sex ratio. Islam changed this, and plus, Muslim men who choose to have more than one wife must treat their wives with equal respect. Each wife must have a separate house, equal number of servants, equal number of gifts, etc. As women aren't allowed to have more than one husband, they do have the right to declare their marriage null and void, while the husband must choose divorce. Although divorce is permitted, it "shakes the throne of Allah", while making the marriage null and void does not do so. The Quran states that men and women are equal, but have different duties. A woman is allowed to work, but must only do so if her husband is incapable. It's her duty to raise her children well, while it's her husbands duty to provide his wife and children a good lifestyle. Women were treated almost like slaves in pre-Islamic Arabia. Most of you westerners imagine that women are oppressed in the middle east, which is completely untrue, they are over-protected. Too over-protected IMO.
Regarding adultery, stoning to death goes against Islam. It's a western misconception that was created after a Nigerian woman was stoned to death for having an illegitimate child, this was actually an ancient African practice that Muslims in the north of Nigeria adopted. This is the actual punishment for adultery:
| An-Nur 24: 2, The Holy Quran wrote: | | The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment |
Pardon me for defending my faith. |
I wasn't trying to offend your faith as I said it was going to sound as narrow minded as the topic itself about women. I don't know much about Islam except from documentaries and books. I just asked why Islam when Averick suggested jokingly how women would take over by including Islam and Paganism. Islam is obviously a male dominated religion just as Christianity and Judeoism.
As for women covering themselves, I don't think I mentioned anything about that. I really don't care if they do or don't. To me personally, I think it would still attract attention anyway since a guy "can't control his sexual urge" (Yeah right.) and knows there's a woman covered up in that burka.
I think NLG was right about how damaging this topic is. It brings out other issues. To me this title represents a double standard to everything. You hear crap all the time about how all women are this and women are that which to me is hypocritical to everything else. People can dish it out but can't take it when it involves something of themselves personally.
_________________
Oh you can't help that. We're all mad here.
__Cheshire the Cat
6thSin:Envy |
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Khan_Sama
Snowy Owl
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 169
Location: India
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| D1nk0 wrote: | | northern_light_girl wrote: | | Khan_Sama wrote: | | The reason why Muslim women are covered from head to toe, is quite simple really, to protect her modesty and so that men can treat her for who she is, a human being, and not an object. |
Why isn't the modesty of Muslim men protected too, with a head to toe vail? The same argument can be made that they need the head to toe veil, so that women would treat them for who they are, human beings, not objects (beautiful bodies/faces). Judgement would not be passed based on how the man LOOKS but solely on how he thinks, talks and acts (kind of what happens virtually too). |
The thing is NLG, women certainly Do judge men objectively but more often than not they tend to judge men on things Other than their (pure)physical appearance. Ive noticed that for a man to be good looking is just NOT ENOUGH for him to 'get the girls'. He has to show signs of status and wealth for women to really want him. Ugly guys(who arent fat mind you  )with finely honed social skils actualy CAN get very pretty girls. However, I personally would not object in the LEAST if Both sexes had to be covered head to toe except for their faces  . Why do western women feel so outraged that there are culture which do not allow women to show off their bodies?? |
Exactly. Something my sister will never understand. She's completely western minded, and I can't do anything to change her mind. Sadly, I've given up trying to tell her what kind of monsters men can be at times.
Men, in Islam, are supposed to cover themselves minimally from the knees to the waist (fardh - compulsory). However, it is sunnat (pious) to cover the whole body, to grow a beard, and wear something to cover the head, such as a cap. For women, covering their whole body including the hair is fardh. The main purpose of these divine instructions is so that we may learn to judge others for who they are, and not their appearance, in every aspect, from business to relationships.
| MissConstrue wrote: | | I wasn't trying to offend your faith as I said it was going to sound as narrow minded as the topic itself about women. I don't know much about Islam except from documentaries and books. I just asked why Islam when Averick suggested jokingly how women would take over by including Islam and Paganism. Islam is obviously a male dominated religion just as Christianity and Judeoism. |
I understood you weren't trying to offend anyone, I'm just trying to clear the misconception that you have. Most non-Muslims (all over the world) have this misconception that Islam promotes oppression of women, promotes murder (terrorism), promotes suicide (terrorism), promotes war, etc. In fact, Islam is completely against any of these. Another misconception is that we're moon worshipers, lol, the silliest misconception of all. I've even come across articles linking Islam to the worship of the Goddess Cybele of Phyrgia. 
| MissConstrue wrote: | | As for women covering themselves, I don't think I mentioned anything about that. I really don't care if they do or don't. To me personally, I think it would still attract attention anyway since a guy "can't control his sexual urge" (Yeah right.) and knows there's a woman covered up in that burka. |
I mentioned the hijab/burqa as most people target Islamic modesty. Personally, as a male, I don't get aroused when I'm with women who wear the hijab. I can converse with them without a problem. It's like the whole social barrier is absent with them. Most importantly, I end up having a lot of respect for them.
Sadly, the only women who wear the hijab in my family are the old women, such as my grandmother. |
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MissConstrue
Aquarius
Joined: Feb 05, 2008
Age: 26
Posts: 10333
Location: Anywhere but HERE!
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Good, glad we got that covered. 
Hmmm.....Goddess Cybele of Phyrgia.
Guess I'll have to look that one up. 
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Oh you can't help that. We're all mad here.
__Cheshire the Cat
6thSin:Envy |
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D1nk0
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Age: 29
Posts: 1589
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps Jesus believed that he was an earthly reincarnation of the egyptian god Wasir(Osiris)
AFAIK the cult of Cybele Never made it to the Arabian pennisula. Before Muhammads conquest of Mecca, the city was the center of the cult of Al-Uzzah(the moon God). |
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frankcritic
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 25, 2008
Age: 27
Posts: 145
Location: United States, AR
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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How did we get to ten pages on this subject?
If I posted a thread entitled, "Babies are Satan's pudding and quite good on toast!!!" would we get to ten pages of discussion?
-Frank |
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Averick
Self-Proclaimed Sage of Foolish Idiotry
Joined: Mar 06, 2007
Age: 28
Posts: 1607
Location: Ubiquitous, unfortunately for you
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps what I was getting at in my post is that women have had control the whole time, making men think they've had the control. ~ Sweet lemons, sour grapes.
And no, Slowmutant, I'm nowhere near being a woman or like one. In fact women would be intimidated with my perspective had I the strength to state it.  |
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D1nk0
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Age: 29
Posts: 1589
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Averick wrote: | Perhaps what I was getting at in my post is that women have had control the whole time, making men think they've had the control. ~ Sweet lemons, sour grapes.
And no, Slowmutant, I'm nowhere near being a woman or like one. In fact women would be intimidated with my perspective had I the strength to state it. |
The English Philosopher Samuel Johnson once said: "Nature has give women so much power that the law has wisely given them very little".
I couldnt agree more  |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 57
Posts: 6182
Location: The Emerald Forest
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| MissConstrue wrote: | Question-
Maybe this sounds just as ignorant as the topic but why Islam?
Doesn't that put women down if not more than Christianity from a female perspective?
Don't men have the upper hand in the religion by having more than one wife. ? |
This made me snort into my coffee, having been in non Muslim polygamist situations I have found that the first wife is always the invisible head of the home.
Merle |
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D1nk0
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Age: 29
Posts: 1589
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| sinsboldly wrote: | | MissConstrue wrote: | Question-
Maybe this sounds just as ignorant as the topic but why Islam?
Doesn't that put women down if not more than Christianity from a female perspective?
Don't men have the upper hand in the religion by having more than one wife. ? |
This made me snort into my coffee, having been in non Muslim polygamist situations I have found that the first wife is always the invisible head of the home.
Merle |
Its so curious how polygyny is fairly common among many non-western cultures of africa, south asia, and the pacific but polyandry is Extremely rare. The ONLY documented occurance of polyandry is in Tibet and a certain tribe in Papua New
Guinea. |
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LoveableNerd
Velociraptor
Joined: Apr 24, 2008
Posts: 435
Location: Kentucky, USA
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| LePetitPrince wrote: |
| Quote: | | Women generally don't like nice guys even though they pretend like they do. |
No, women generally like masculine guys and it just happen that most bad guys have masculine traits and most nice guys usually lack many masculine traits. |
I thought aspies had an "extreme male" brain. Wouldn't that make us more masculine, and therefore more appealing?
_________________
Murphy's Law for NiceGuys™:
When you are in a platonic relationship with the girl of your dreams, she will go out with countless insensitive jerks who treat her like dirt and you will have to painfully listen to her lament over her misfortunes in the arena of love. She will describe for you the sort of man that she is REALLY looking for, but she will never realize that she is describing you to a tee. The reason for this is that she does not really want the sort of man she describes. Most women prefer jerks whether they realize it or not. |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 57
Posts: 6182
Location: The Emerald Forest
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| LoveableNerd wrote: | | Most women prefer jerks whether they realize it or not. |
oh, we realize it. . . like a moth to a flame and with the same results. we admire them for the virtues we project onto them and despise them when they some how fail us for those were not their virtues at all. the drive to reproduce induced by our hormones impel us towards those men that are thoughtless enough to **** like bunnies with purpose mostly to just continue the species. few women are intellectually inclined to drain the emotional swamps while immersed in the biological hot tub. It takes presence of mind to work against those primal urgings and hone our intellectual capacities to chose against type while the pulse of our own chemical make up attracts the hormone drenched emotions to the lowest common denominator.
but. . after the hormones fade, and the woman is her own, again, the truly discerning woman will always prefer a man of talent
Merle
_________________
"Karma...it's everywhere your going to be"
Last edited by sinsboldly on Sat May 10, 2008 3:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Pobodys_Nerfect
Toucan
Joined: Mar 11, 2008
Posts: 260
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| The man of talents won't respect her though |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 57
Posts: 6182
Location: The Emerald Forest
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| Pobodys_Nerfect wrote: | | The man of talents won't respect her though |
no man of talent need scruple against biological need.
it would be his choice to respect or not, surely.
Merle |
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Jainaday
in uncertain taste
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 1232
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:27 am Post subject: Re: All women are demons from Hell that like to mess with me |
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| KenM wrote: | I posted this in another thread but I need to know why every women I have been interested in lately has done this crap to me.
I just broke it off with a girl I was seeing for like 6 months. After our first date, she told me that she just wanted to be friends, for now. That she has some issues she needed to work out and not ready for a reltionship. As we stay firends and hang out, she tells me about these other guys she is meeting and interested in but she gets upset when they tell her that they just want to be friends. I told her "i thought you just wanted to stay friends you were not ready, ect." Then she tells me that there is no spark between us and even before we went out, she already made up her mind that she was going to be just a friend with me. Not even considering me for a deeper relationship, even though I told her from the start I was looking for a reltionshiip.
I hope there is speical place in Hell for women like this. I was coming off another relationship where that girl sent me alot of mixed signals and this new girl did alot of damage to me. |
Without reading all ten pages preceding, I'd like to say
I have more or less done this.
If you want a girl to be completely honest with you, make it clear in your actions that
It is more important to you that she be honest, and that she not be with you if she doesn't really want to be with you, than it is for her not to hurt you.
Otherwise, if she likes you, she may just try to give you what she thinks you want. . . try to make you happy. . . try to give you a gentle let down. . . and, not knowing the harm she has done, continue to move on with her life.
The honesty of women who are choosing to reject a relationship with a man is not a widely or highly valued thing in our culture. |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 57
Posts: 6182
Location: The Emerald Forest
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| D1nk0 wrote: | | sinsboldly wrote: | | MissConstrue wrote: | Question-
Maybe this sounds just as ignorant as the topic but why Islam?
Doesn't that put women down if not more than Christianity from a female perspective?
Don't men have the upper hand in the religion by having more than one wife. ? |
This made me snort into my coffee, having been in non Muslim polygamist situations I have found that the first wife is always the invisible head of the home.
Merle |
Its so curious how polygyny is fairly common among many non-western cultures of africa, south asia, and the pacific but polyandry is Extremely rare. The ONLY documented occurance of polyandry is in Tibet and a certain tribe in Papua New
Guinea. |
I could not enjoy "Legends of the Fall" because all I could think about was how the three brothers and their father and one woman on the cattle ranch would be perfect were they all in Tibet (where there is limited land, so it is passed down to all brothers who marry one woman. She can have only one child a year so slows the birth rate sharply, considered what proper upstanding Tibetans do)
Merle
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(my mother had two husbands concurrently in the same house for 22 years. but that is another story.)
no I didn't live in Tibet nor Papua New Guinean, I am from Kansas! |
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