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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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 Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | skafather84 wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | Sounds like you're advocating secular bigotry over religious principles. |
what rights are you having taken away? |
First tell me why you'd care, because all indications have been that you don't.
And that's the crux of the matter: No one cares about Christians' right to religious expression.
The now-politically-charged term "tolerance" was invented in order to be intolerant to Christians. |
Same old lie. As I said, you guys think anything less then Christianity being a state religion is "oppression" by "evil secular bigots."
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5745
Location: United States
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: |
1) We as in We the People. There will always be discrimination, we just are accepting of the discrimination we have, and unaccepting towards others. I don't really have the same definitions that people have when they use things like discrimination, racism, hatred, etc. Keep that in mind, it's usually semantics. |
I did not agree to that, and Lysander Spooner, argued in his paper "No Treason" that there is no "we". I understand that discrimination will always exist, but I don't want to be a party to the discrimination that I don't agree with.
| Quote: | | 3) What do you mean by some people have religion? I'm trying to see this context. Do you mean that they have religion and prefer not to be told what to do because of it? Yes. But there are ways you can make laws with consideration towards the People, the Religion, and the Tradition. I don't pay much mind to the latest waves and shits in trend because it can change to anything. |
You said "you believe in a State", and I was just mocking that.
| Quote: | | 4) A marriage is a contract. I would like people to be more penalized when a marriage is disrespected. |
Why? They didn't agree to stiffer penalties. I don't see a problem with them seeker stiffer penalties for violation of the marital contract though.
| Quote: | | 5) I am aware of that definition, but usually the title Tyrant is given as an emotional outburst. Especially when it is against a person who expresses his beliefs. |
Ok, and I am just am using it.
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6) The tradition argument comes in play and you know it does. This is why there are the two major branches in politics labeled Conservative and Liberal. As a conservative I have to take into account the tradition (both local, national, and international), see how it fits with my personal beliefs, and if the conflict between other's interest is worth taking into consideration. |
And I don't believe in either conservatives or liberals. |
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | | greenblue wrote: |
well, I'm for secular principles over religious bigotry. 
not saying there are no religious principles.
not saying there are no secular bigotry.
But I know we all here would not perfectly agree on what constitutes bigotry and what constitutes principle, and to say it better, the use and misuse of any of them. |
I always had this discussion with my mind: Considering that the majority in America profess on being of a religion, why not allow laws that are respectable to both religion (all religions) and secularism? After all, we are not a truly secular nation. |
The founders set up the US as a secular country in order to PROTECT freedom of religion. The mingling of religion and government leads to persecution of minority beliefs. This is why the attack on secularism by the Religious Right is so disturbing, Official secularism is NECESSARY for freedom of religion to exist.
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3734
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Odin wrote: | | The founders set up the US as a secular country in order to PROTECT freedom of religion. The mingling of religion and government leads to persecution of minority beliefs. This is why the attack on secularism by the Religious Right is so disturbing, Official secularism is NECESSARY for freedom of religion to exist. |
False. The US was founded on Christian principles. We extended toleration to different religions, but even in this we were limited. For a long time there was distrust of Catholics, as it was thought their loyalty to Rome might trump their loyalty to America. Atheists were long prohibited from acting as witnesses and offering testimony because it was believed that, without a God, there was nothing to bind them to an oath. Religious toleration originally was primarily for different sects of Protestantism. I don't really agree with that system, but it's what was historically there. I could point you towards Supreme Court cases affirming the Christian nature of this country (including one that ruled it unlawful to establish a school that didn't include Biblical instruction) if you like.
I don't mind you advocating for greater secularization, but please don't rewrite history in the process.
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skafather84
Platypus God
Joined: Mar 21, 2006
Age: 24
Posts: 4725
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | The US was founded on Christian principles. |
yeah because the majority of the deists were heavy into christianity. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2043
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | ... |
1) I don't agree with Spooner's assertion. I understand his positions but I'd rather see a bigger government (certainly not fascist/totalitarian however). I tend to follow the Social Contract Theory, though more Hobbesian.
2) This is one of my problems with the government, since it is in charge of acknowledging marriage currently. If they were really honest about it, they'd punish those who broke the legal contract.
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2043
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| skafather84 wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | The US was founded on Christian principles. |
yeah because the majority of the deists were heavy into christianity. |
They knew more about the Bible than you do.
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3734
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| skafather84 wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | The US was founded on Christian principles. |
yeah because the majority of the deists were heavy into christianity. |
Do you have dismissive sarcastic comments for the rest of my points?
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skafather84
Platypus God
Joined: Mar 21, 2006
Age: 24
Posts: 4725
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | skafather84 wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | The US was founded on Christian principles. |
yeah because the majority of the deists were heavy into christianity. |
Do you have dismissive sarcastic comments for the rest of my points? |
citing past wrongs doesn't make the current one any more acceptable. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3734
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| skafather84 wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | skafather84 wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | The US was founded on Christian principles. |
yeah because the majority of the deists were heavy into christianity. |
Do you have dismissive sarcastic comments for the rest of my points? |
citing past wrongs doesn't make the current one any more acceptable. |
You obviously did not read my post all the way through.
| Orwell wrote: | I don't really agree with that system [only a limited degree of religious tolerance] ...
(snip)
I don't mind you advocating for greater secularization, but please don't rewrite history in the process. |
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FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5745
Location: United States
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: |
1) I don't agree with Spooner's assertion. I understand his positions but I'd rather see a bigger government (certainly not fascist/totalitarian however). I tend to follow the Social Contract Theory, though more Hobbesian. |
Well, I know you would not agree with Spooner's ideas, however, I am not much of social contract theory as it is practically a blank check to the state. I have probably already stated my take on the government though.
| Quote: |
2) This is one of my problems with the government, since it is in charge of acknowledging marriage currently. If they were really honest about it, they'd punish those who broke the legal contract |
Well, then it would have to define violations of that contract. |
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skafather84
Platypus God
Joined: Mar 21, 2006
Age: 24
Posts: 4725
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | skafather84 wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | skafather84 wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | The US was founded on Christian principles. |
yeah because the majority of the deists were heavy into christianity. |
Do you have dismissive sarcastic comments for the rest of my points? |
citing past wrongs doesn't make the current one any more acceptable. |
You obviously did not read my post all the way through.
| Orwell wrote: | I don't really agree with that system [only a limited degree of religious tolerance] ...
(snip)
I don't mind you advocating for greater secularization, but please don't rewrite history in the process. |
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okay but to say that it was founded on christian principles isn't being completely honest. the christian influences more reflected the culture of the time than it did the founding fathers or the intent within their writings.
edit: also, i was doing this in between builds at work...can't read everything fast enough to respond to every point.
Last edited by skafather84 on Mon May 19, 2008 10:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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skafather84
Platypus God
Joined: Mar 21, 2006
Age: 24
Posts: 4725
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | | skafather84 wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | The US was founded on Christian principles. |
yeah because the majority of the deists were heavy into christianity. |
They knew more about the Bible than you do. |
10+ years of catholic school. i know the history, the context, and core contents of the bible. i may not be able to cite bible verses by heart but i know more than enough of it to hold my own against most christian nutjobs. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2043
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| skafather84 wrote: |
okay but to say that it was founded on christian principles isn't being completely honest. the christian influences more reflected the culture of the time than it did the founding fathers or the intent within their writings.
edit: also, i was doing this in between builds at work...can't read everything fast enough to respond to every point. |
What does Christian principles mean to you?
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | False. The US was founded on Christian principles. |
WRONG, TOTALLY WRONG!!! Most of the founders were Deists and secularists, THAT IS A FACT.
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