Ever Had a Narcissistic Significant Other?

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en_una_isla
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16 Jan 2006, 4:56 pm

Narcissists (N) will seek out people who can give them narcissistic supply (NS) and whom they can control. Adoring fixation (which I have been guilty of and seems to be an aspie trait, perhaps more so of females) can be the NS for the N and weak social abilities can be what makes the AS person easily controlled. I have a read a couple posts by AS people here asking for help with their spouse when it did sound to me like the person was married to an N. I have had 1 relationship with an N and there is a N in my immediate family. I don't know if AS people are more likely to get involved with Ns but I think AS people are more vulnerable to abuse, in general, which would make them easy targets for Ns. Not all Ns are constantly bombastic and noisy, either. Some are the quiet pretentious types, or they can switch back and forth depending on what gets them more NS. I was completely shattered by my "relationship" with a narcissist.


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danlo
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16 Jan 2006, 9:48 pm

Aylissa wrote:
Not only do they lie, but they lie to themselves. There is no "there" there. It's almost like they don't have a soul because it's buried beneath so many layers of bull****, and a lot of it is self-protection. And the sad part is they have no idea that their whole existence is a lie - they are so well-shielded. When you uncover that mask it's horrifying to see what's really underneath - a very scared person who will NEVER be able to come out and play - or have a meaningful relationship.

It’s one thing to share your experiences. It’s another thing to attempt to subdue your emotional traumas by pretending that narcissists hate their existence, that they’re some pitiable lonely creature hiding from the world. Save your pity; they don’t need it nor do they want it. “Not only do they lie, but they lie to themselves.” It’s plainly evident that you see yourself as being better than narcissists. In your post, you’re distinctly categorizing into an "us" versus "them" mentality; "they" lie, "we" don’t. The condescension comes from that attitude of "we" are better than "them".
Talk about your experiences, Aylissa, by all means. I’m not attacking you, or belittling your experiences. I’m attacking the anti-narcissist attitude everyone is expressing on the forums. You have every right to expect some level of support. As far as I can see, you are receiving some. But there will be no forthcoming support for an anti-narcissist attitude from me.



MsTriste
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16 Jan 2006, 11:03 pm

Your rants remind me of Hamlet: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

Keep going so we can get this thread locked up :)



NeantHumain
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17 Jan 2006, 12:27 am

danlo wrote:
I’m attacking the anti-narcissist attitude everyone is expressing on the forums. You have every right to expect some level of support. As far as I can see, you are receiving some. But there will be no forthcoming support for an anti-narcissist attitude from me.

It looks like someone's been investigating the methods of the profligate troll.

I realize you're playing devil's advocate here, danlo; but it does seem aylissa is getting rather worked up over it, so it's probably best to back off a little, and I'm speaking as someone who has trolled before.

No one is seriously going to defend the behaviors that define pathological narcissism.



danlo
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17 Jan 2006, 1:43 am

You don’t see how it applies? You’re obviously forgetting the previous comments along this vein. Let me refresh your memory:

1. Aylissa was polarizing, commenting on the fact that they (narcissists) lie to themselves.
2. I commented that everyone lies to themselves on a daily basis, in an attempt to remove a "validation" for Aylissa’s polarized view.
3. You commented that ‘regular’ people know they are doing it, and can even stop doing it if they want.
4. I introduced the term glavering, to focus your attention on the lying that everyone does, that they don’t know they do, and that most people can’t stop.

Now, I know you were talking about narcissism. But when you responded to a comment of mine that was directed towards Aylissa, you stopped talking about narcissism. The "glavering" comment was utilized to focus your attention on what I was saying. The problem now lies in the assumption that I am talking about the same thing you were, that is to say narcissism itself, when I am actually simply trying to deconstruct the polarized view that is happening on this thread. In short, it is a hate thread directed towards narcissists.

hermit wrote:
might be better served with Immanuel Kant's version "the variety of beings should not rashly be diminished." The scope of the mind is limitless, and the push and pull between motivations (in the psych sense) creates a very complex system that is at best hard to figure out.

So what makes you think you can reduce all narcissists into a single category of people who have poor egos? Even in psychology, there’s this urge to polarize, and to further complicate things, there is also projection issues. "People can’t really like being mean to others, deep down they only want what we want, so what other explanation can we come up with?" Occam’s Razor is a two-edged sword, and nowhere is it more vital than in psychology.

hermit wrote:
Then I fear I rended all arguments of mine invalid, for I do not see this. It's not manipulative.

I suggest you go back and read the rest of my paragraph, for I wasn’t referring to manipulation, but to egocentricity, and how it renders one incapable of seeing things from another perspective. Specifically, by not reading what is said, but by selectively choosing what to address and what context to read in. My comment regarding people in power developing narcissistic traits was made to support my argument that narcissism is not developed to protect some weak and scared inner person, but a love of power and control that can occur on many different levels.

hermit wrote:
It is morally WRONG to manipulate others for your enjoyment.

Is it? What is human interaction and socialization if not manipulation? Why is it morally wrong? It isn’t, not really. Everyone does it. What you find morally reprehensible, is because the narcissist is so good at it, others don’t get the same feeling. It’s all one-way traffic to the narcissist. That’s the problem.

I have made no reference to your intelligence, Hermit, only to the strength of your egocentricity. In truth, it is very hard to overcome egocentricity, and intelligence is of no help. I do, in fact, consider you to be quite intelligent, merely locked into a single worldview. I don’t know what you find belittling, as I have no hesitation in saying the same about myself. It’s just my worldview is so much prettier than yours.

hermit wrote:
If you are claiming to be/support the NPD POV, you won't get a lot of backup on this thread, or probably even this board.

I am not supporting the NPD worldview. I am merely trying to point out that they aren’t the monsters some people would have you think. They aren’t horrifying, they aren’t wearing a mask, they aren’t pitiable, they aren’t all that dangerous. Theirs is just another system of interaction, another way of viewing the world. They can be great people.



hermit
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17 Jan 2006, 5:29 am

you know, I didn't even bother to read that?

I realized yesterday that I didn't actually want to discuss this, or any other topic with you.

So.... forget it. I didn't read it, I'm not going to.



SB2
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17 Jan 2006, 5:45 am

I find this fascinating.
But i am not too experienced in these matters, nor given them much thought.

Would it be ok, if i didn't offer an opinion, and simply watch and learn?


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danlo
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17 Jan 2006, 11:14 am

Hey Neant. I think I would have to agree with you. Whenever the worldview of an Autistic is challenged, and the validity of that worldview questioned, they close up shop and resort to crude attempts at emotional manipulation. Autism decidedly shares some narcissistic traits. It is unfortunate that their own autistic, daresay narcissistic, view causes them to polarize and hate the narcissist for himself also possessing a similar view. For instead of turning the lens of analysis back on oneself and seeing where they themselves are narcissistic, their hatred of their own narcissistic qualities are projected onto the focal point of their attention.
The inability to question the validity of their worldview, stems from the mistaken belief that their view is always right. This is both the strength and weakness of the narcissist. Any challenge to the worldview, shakes the very foundations of their fragile existence, and causes narcissistic injury. It is to avoid this injury, that defense mechanisms such as ignoring the source of contention are employed. Herein lies the easiest means to defeating a narcissist. Boundaries will often as not simply provide a greater source of entertainment for the narcissist intent on breaking them.



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17 Jan 2006, 7:04 pm

still good stuff, from an emotionally withdrawn point of view.

still, debateable.

although i am just observing this one.

keep up the good work, people.


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NeantHumain
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19 Jan 2006, 4:29 pm

danlo wrote:
Hey Neant. I think I would have to agree with you. Whenever the worldview of an Autistic is challenged, and the validity of that worldview questioned, they close up shop and resort to crude attempts at emotional manipulation. Autism decidedly shares some narcissistic traits. It is unfortunate that their own autistic, daresay narcissistic, view causes them to polarize and hate the narcissist for himself also possessing a similar view. For instead of turning the lens of analysis back on oneself and seeing where they themselves are narcissistic, their hatred of their own narcissistic qualities are projected onto the focal point of their attention.

I realize you were in a trolling mood when you wrote this, but I am going to respond seriously because that's the mood I am in! :D The pervasive developmental disorders and narcissistic personality disorder are not, to my knowledge, correlated although I do not doubt it is possible for narcissistic autistic people to exist. I do not suspect that the majority (or anything close to) of autistic people resort to narcissistic tactics to improve their personal situation. People generally dislike pathological narcissists because narcissists are selfish, manipulative, obnoxious, and condescending according to diagnostic criteria.

You see, we disagree, actually.

Now does anyone else know a narcissist personally? I can probably only think of one, and she was a girl I happened to fall in love with. I don't know why I didn't fall for one of those other girls instead of the beautiful, friendly one instead.



en_una_isla
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19 Jan 2006, 7:26 pm

My anecdotal conclusion just from having been around for 32 years is that the aspies / aspie-ish people who end up settling down do so with either another aspie or with someone with OCD traits. I don't think it's "common" for aspies to attract narcissists but if an aspie landed on a narcissist's doorstep he or she would probably see an easy meal.

My husband is OCD but has good social skills.



danlo
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20 Jan 2006, 12:05 am

NeantHumain wrote:
I realize you were in a trolling mood when you wrote this, but I am going to respond seriously because that's the mood I am in! :D The pervasive developmental disorders and narcissistic personality disorder are not, to my knowledge, correlated although I do not doubt it is possible for narcissistic autistic people to exist. I do not suspect that the majority (or anything close to) of autistic people resort to narcissistic tactics to improve their personal situation. People generally dislike pathological narcissists because narcissists are selfish, manipulative, obnoxious, and condescending according to diagnostic criteria.

You see, we disagree, actually.

Perhaps. I see, though, that you are concentrating on the personality side of things, ie selfish, manipulative etc. This is not related to what I was saying. I was speaking about specific identifiable traits, such as the egocentricity and inability to see the other person's point of view. Both of which, I might add, cause the individual to appear selfish, selfabsorbed, insensitive, and obnoxious. They don't do it for the same reasons as the "pathological narcissist", but it is nonetheless the same trait and exhibits in the same manner.

Lets also look at some other descriptions of Narcissistic traits that coincide with autistic traits:

  • The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves.
  • Narcissists have little sense of humor. They don't get jokes, not even the funny papers or simple riddles, and they don't make jokes, except for sarcastic cracks and the lamest puns. This is because, lacking empathy, they don't get the context and affect of words or actions.
  • Narcissists have a weird sense of time. Years can pass without touching narcissists. Narcissists often look, or think they look, significantly younger than they are.
  • Narcissists are totally and inflexibly authoritarian. In other words, they are suck-ups. They want to be authority figures and, short of that, they want to be associated with authority figures.
  • A narcissistic individual is preoccupied with fantasies of his brilliance as well as his unlimited success or power. He fantasizes about beauty or ideal love.


Everyone has narcissistic traits, and it's when those traits become exaggerated in an individual's personality that NPD occurs. Narcissistic traits are exaggerated in autistics, I think you'll agree, just not to the extent as that of the pathological Narcissist. Indeed, so closely does the autistic childhood mirror that of the hypothesized cause of NPD, it's more of a wonder that there aren't more NPD autistics around. I would imagine it is because autistic egos are better protected from the opinions of other people, than the narcissist is. But it's not a far jump from autistic personality to narcissistic.



NeantHumain
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20 Jan 2006, 9:35 am

danlo wrote:
Lets also look at some other descriptions of Narcissistic traits that coincide with autistic traits:

  • The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves.
  • Narcissists have little sense of humor. They don't get jokes, not even the funny papers or simple riddles, and they don't make jokes, except for sarcastic cracks and the lamest puns. This is because, lacking empathy, they don't get the context and affect of words or actions.
  • Narcissists have a weird sense of time. Years can pass without touching narcissists. Narcissists often look, or think they look, significantly younger than they are.
  • Narcissists are totally and inflexibly authoritarian. In other words, they are suck-ups. They want to be authority figures and, short of that, they want to be associated with authority figures.
  • A narcissistic individual is preoccupied with fantasies of his brilliance as well as his unlimited success or power. He fantasizes about beauty or ideal love.

None of these remind me of autistic traits. Many of these sound like the inverse of what is common among ACs (autistics and cousins).



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20 Jan 2006, 10:09 am

Since this is still going I will add to it again.

Danlo, I apologize for getting upset and removing myself from the discussion in the manner I did. It took me until this morning before I was able to read this thread again, including your response that I said I didn't read (I didn't until today). I am glad I did, it was interesting and pertinent. However, I was and am having trouble seperating my emotions from my rational arguments in this discussion, so I will remain out of it.

I'm pretty sure I do understand your view, and what you are trying to say, but I just disagree. Is it safe to leave it at that? I hope so.



danlo
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20 Jan 2006, 10:30 am

NeantHumain wrote:
None of these remind me of autistic traits. Many of these sound like the inverse of what is common among ACs (autistics and cousins).

The inverse, lol? You must focus too much on the technical side of things, Neant, if you haven't noticed or seen some of these traits exhibit themselves, or even let alone heard of them. One other trait I forgot to mention, is the constant comparisons between themselves and others to develop their views of themselves. One only has to look at the forums to see all the "What is your IQ" threads and the like. Grandiose visions of themselves? You bet. Perfect love? What do you think is up with everyone's desperation to find a SO when they're barely out of their teens? Not to mention the lofty heights of their standards. I remember listening to people on the chatroom talk about how they wouldn't associate with the 'dregs of society' because they were beneath them. Authoritarian? I'm sure I don't have to explain that one to you, lol. Lack of sense of humor? How can you claim that this one doesn't remind you of autistic traits?

You must be employing that infamous dry sarcasm of yours :)



danlo
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20 Jan 2006, 1:51 pm

hermit wrote:
Danlo, I apologize for getting upset and removing myself from the discussion in the manner I did. It took me until this morning before I was able to read this thread again, including your response that I said I didn't read (I didn't until today). I am glad I did, it was interesting and pertinent. However, I was and am having trouble seperating my emotions from my rational arguments in this discussion, so I will remain out of it.

I'm pretty sure I do understand your view, and what you are trying to say, but I just disagree. Is it safe to leave it at that? I hope so.

Don't apologize, hermit. As you can see, I'm not so good at preventing my own emotions from spilling out into my own arguments, either. Often I will get too engrossed in the other point of view when I make it my own, and forget that it is only a game. I think I let my fondness for the game's machinations, outweigh the game's purpose of freeing the mind's bondage to a single worldview. I actually do agree with you, that narcissicism can be a bad thing. I simply disagree that this makes them bad people.