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pandd
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 16, 2006
Posts: 1909
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 Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| zen_mistress wrote: |
How is it a personal attack? |
| Quote: | | I am sorry your assessment of these kind of belief systems is that they are valid and that people should be able to teach their children that Hitlers death camps were ok, |
Whereas_I_actually_said
| pandd wrote: | | I deplore the views of these parents, and I am greatly disturbed by the idea of a young mind being exposed to such an intellectually and socially hostile environment. |
| zen_mistress wrote: | | which is why I dont know what your point even is. |
At what point does teaching your children your "world perspective" become something the state should declare illegal child abuse? Who's standards do we apply in choosing what values parents may attempt to instill in their children?
At what point does someone's subjective political/social views become illegal child abuse? Who decides which view points are legal?
| Quote: | | In fact it is you who are attacking me |
How_so? Have_I_pretended_you_hold_a_view_you_have_already_stated_you_do_not_hold,_for_the_purpose
of_attempting_to_insult_you_personally? I_thought_I_had_stuck_to_the_subject_matter_of_the_discussion_respecting_that_your_views_are_as_
you_have_stated_them.
| Quote: |
It is all very well for people to say that these people have a perfect right to raise their children in a white supremacy environment, |
Aha.
| pandd wrote: | | I deplore the views of these parents, and I am greatly disturbed by the idea of a young mind being exposed to such an intellectually and socially hostile environment. |
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zen_mistress
* ENFP *
Joined: Jun 12, 2007
Age: 32
Posts: 2195
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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1) Again you have completely missed the point. I am expressing surprise that you seem more concerned about civil liberties than the disturbing idea of raising a child as a white supremacist. I am also surprised at this as you initially expressed your dislike of it, yet seemed ok with these people being allowed by society to continue with their teaching this to a child. I am not saying you are a racist, I dont think you are, but I cant understand the order of your priorities.
This child was taking her teachings to school with her and the teachers are to just accept this? A child doesn't grow up in an isolated little bubble, they have to interact with other members of society. A white supremacist child can cause a lot of friction in a school, and I am sure non-white students would benefit from an environment free of racism where they could just get on with their school work and play. I dont just see this as a matter for 2 parents and 2 children.
2) Your initial post in response to my post was a personal attack, and you are the one who has been criticising my posts piece by piece. I have very good reasons to be upset at the idea of white supremacy, you dont know me, or my history, yet you seem to think I should hold your opinions or I am wrong. I saw your post before I posted and I was happy to let you have your opinion, until you got stuck into me. |
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pandd
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 16, 2006
Posts: 1909
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| zen_mistress wrote: | | 1) Again you have completely missed the point. I am expressing surprise that you seem more concerned about civil liberties than the disturbing idea of raising a child as a white supremacist. |
Which-again-ignores-what-I-did-say-and-replaces-it-with-what-I-did-not-say.
| pandd wrote: | | This kind of situation presents a conundrum. |
If-in-fact-I-were-more-concerned-with-civil-liberties-then-why-would-any-such-situation-be-a-conundrum?
| Quote: |
I am also surprised at this as you initially expressed your dislike of it, yet seemed ok with these people being allowed by society to continue with their teaching this to a child. |
I-have-never-stated-or-implied-that-I-am-ok-with-such-a-thing.--Can-you-not-argue-your-own-case-without-attempting-to-discredit-others-by-falsely-attributing-negative-positions-to-them?
| Quote: | | I am not saying you are a racist, I dont think you are, but I cant understand the order of your priorities. |
The-law-works-on-generalities.--Either-it-is-or-is-not-acceptable-to-remove-children-from-their-parents-on-the-basis-of-parental-teachings-about-social-and-political-issues.--If-it-is-legally-acceptable-then-there-must-be-answers-to-hard-questions-such-as-how-to-differentiate-between-legal-teaching-of-parental-values,-and-illegal-child-abusive-teachings.
| Quote: |
This child was taking her teachings to school with her and the teachers are to just accept this? |
Emotive-hand-wringing-does-not-change-the-fact-that-if-society-is-to-remove-children-from-their-parents-either-it-does-so-arbitrarily-or-according-to-clear-rules-of-law.--If-the-latter-(and-who-would-want-arbitrary-removal-of-children-by-the-state),-then-how-are-we-to-legally-test-when-views-are-illegal-to-teach-to-children?--The-complexity-and-difficulty-and-lack-of-empirical-testing-(of-the-answer)-that-characterizes-this-question-is-what-concerns-me.
| Quote: |
A child doesn't grow up in an isolated little bubble, they have to interact with other members of society. A white supremacist child can cause a lot of friction in a school, and I am sure non-white students would benefit from an environment free of racism where they could just get on with their school work and play. I dont just see this as a matter for 2 parents and 2 children. |
I-do-not-see-where-I-have-suggested-that-it-is.
| Quote: |
2) Your initial post in response to my post was a personal attack, |
I-cannot-see-how.
| Quote: |
and you are the one who has been criticising my posts piece by piece. |
Even-if-you-choose-to-call-responding-"criticizing",-there-is-a-difference-between-criticizing-someone's-comments'-and-making-up-nasty-associations-about-them-(such-as-implying-they-are-ok-with-some-rather-nasty-opinions-to-associate-them-with-racists)-that-are-contrary-to-their-comments.
There-is-a-difference-between-addressing-the-actual-stated-views-or-comments-made-by-another,-and-trying-to-shift-the-discussion-to-commentary-that-intentionally-and-falsely-associates-negative-views-with-the-other-person-for-the-purpose-of-attacking-them-personally-rather-than-addressing-their-actual-comments-or-arguments.
| Quote: | | I have very good reasons to be upset at the idea of white supremacy, you dont know me, or my history, yet you seem to think I should hold your opinions or I am wrong. |
No,-I-just-assumed-you-could-discuss-your-opinions-in-an-adult-like-manner.
| Quote: | | I saw your post before I posted and I was happy to let you have your opinion, until you got stuck into me. |
If-you-do-not-wish-to-discuss-your-opinion-it-is-somewhat-mysterious-to-me-why-you-would-post-it-on-a-public-discussion-forum.  |
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Hashberry
Sea Gull
Joined: May 04, 2008
Posts: 249
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Its a bastard when the space bar stops working! |
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pandd
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 16, 2006
Posts: 1909
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Hashberry wrote: | | Its a bastard when the space bar stops working! |
Yes,-I-wonder-if-I-can-assign-the-spacebar-function-to-some-other-key.... |
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zen_mistress
* ENFP *
Joined: Jun 12, 2007
Age: 32
Posts: 2195
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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I guess I am, not only able to type without dashes between every word, probably at a disadvantage, I am not easily able to be objective when it comes to the idea of bringing up children with a belief system that condones and admires the idea of genocide.
Maybe I am very emotional. I happen to care a lot about people of different races being comfortable in this world, including myself, though I know that at times issues may be raised and feelings may be hurt.
I do not look at an article like this with an analytical eye because that is not who I am, and I do respond emotionally to many situations, though I know that many other people in the world are also built like me.
I dont believe I am better or worse than people who are more analytical but this is the way I am. I also believe that I am not irrational in feeling that white supremacy groups are a problem that belongs to a whole society.
It can be brought into question how things like this are handled but I think ultimately I support the idea of teachers and social workers being involved with the situation.
Im sure the social workers would be in there if the child brought hard-core porn to school, and people would have less objection to social workers intervening, but people seem rather desensitised to violence and violent ideas at times. |
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ShadesOfMe
Bunny Pirate on the seven seas!
Joined: Jul 01, 2004
Age: 18
Posts: 18290
Location: California
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| pandd wrote: | | zen_mistress wrote: | | I think it is good that she is taken away from her parents. She is with an aunt anyway. Her parents are nuts. Nobody that nuts should be warping a child. Children should be protected against stuff like that. Just because someone is a biological parent doesn't mean they are the best people to be looking after a child. |
I was not aware any psychiatric evaluation had been conducted on the parents. Unless by "nuts" you mean "holds views that you personally dislike". |
I agree. They may hold awful terrible views, but they obviously aren't crazy like the parents of baby Adolf Hitler...
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zen_mistress
* ENFP *
Joined: Jun 12, 2007
Age: 32
Posts: 2195
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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There are loads of interesting comments on the news article from people who hold all sorts of views. This comment in particular sums up how I feel:
| Quote: | redjello wrote:
The line in the sand is clear.
You can't infringe on a parents right to teach their children their religion or lack thereof.
You can't infinge on a parents rights to teach their children their own value system.
BUT, when you teach a child hate, that is abusive.
For example, I personally think it is wrong to teach a child "Intelligent Design" as opposed to Evolution. However, I have to grudgingly accept that it is the parents right to do so even though it is bunk. When that child becomes an adult they do their own research and make their own decisions on this.
However, teaching a child hate toward another group is not something that can necessarily be undone by education. And further, that child could ACT on the hate they've been taught.
Abuse of a malleable mind, plain and simple. |
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2009/06/04/mb-nazi-custody-hearing.html#socialcomments
Signing off from this debate. |
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greenblue
¸.·´´¯`··.¸.·´
Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 9003
Location: Home
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| ShadesOfMe wrote: | | I agree. They may hold awful terrible views, but they obviously aren't crazy like the parents of baby Adolf Hitler... |
What Hitler's parents have to do with this?
| pandd wrote: | | I was not aware any psychiatric evaluation had been conducted on the parents. Unless by "nuts" you mean "holds views that you personally dislike". |
I was not aware either that saying someone is nuts necesarily or absolutely means that they are doing a psychiatric evaluation on other people, heck! I never heard any doctor using the term nuts to their patients, much less anyone here implying the mental condition of the parents in a clinical way, I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, most people would understand what the term "nuts" actually implies.
| pandd wrote: | | This kind of situation presents a conundrum. Ideally children would not be exposed to the kind of environment where Adolf Hitler is praised, but ideally children would remain with parents who lovingly provide the essentials of life. I do find it rather disturbing that some scribbles on a kid's arm can cause the involvement of child protective services. |
well, I don't think the law already does that based on the indoctrination, but, I think I understand why some would like that, and well, what I can say about it is this, things we defend like freedom and rights, they seem to come with a catch, that is, there seems to be a price to pay for the sake of freedom.
_________________
"I realized, nothing really exists". |
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pandd
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 16, 2006
Posts: 1909
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| greenblue wrote: |
I was not aware either that saying someone is nuts necesarily or absolutely means that they are doing a psychiatric evaluation on other people, heck! |
Neither-am-I,-which-is-why-it-seemed-prudent-to-ask;-as-it-transpires-there-does-appear-to-have-been-some-psychiatric-input-questioning-the-mental-health-status-of-the-parents.--Whether-or-not-zen_mistress-was-referring-to-this-or-not-in-her-original-comments-I-do-not-know,-but-I-do-know-more-than-I-would-if-I-had-not-asked.
| Quote: |
I never heard any doctor using the term nuts to their patients, much less anyone here implying the mental condition of the parents in a clinical way, I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, most people would understand what the term "nuts" actually implies. |
I-have-encountered-examples-of-people-using-it-to-describe-someone-they-believe-has-a-clinical-psychiatric-condition,-and-to-describe-someone-who-holds-a-different-opinion-to-them-(but-who-they-do-not-perceive-as-mentally-ill).
| Quote: | | there seems to be a price to pay for the sake of freedom. |
I-do-not-perceive-that-anyone-is-suggesting-otherwise. |
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zen_mistress
* ENFP *
Joined: Jun 12, 2007
Age: 32
Posts: 2195
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| Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:06 am Post subject: |
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I am just writing another post to say that I have been thinking and I regret the original post I made with the word "nuts" in it. It was judgemental of me, though I do feel that a person who thinks the Holocaust was a good idea must have had some kind of psychological damaging that has occurred to them somewhere down the track.
I guess that we all have our hot buttons and this is one of mine. I get very angry when reading about white supremacists, hate groups, etc... I guess there are reasons for this. But anyway I shouldnt use a forum to vent these feelings.
I do still feel that people should get involved in these issues and that people shouldnt just stand aside and let people run cults and groups that harm or pose a threat to other people, or involve children in such things. Not that I think anyone else in this thread is condoning this themselves.
I think I also misinterpreted the meaning of some of the comments that were made in this thread, and reacted in a way which wasnt good, and for that I am sorry. |
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Katie_WPG
Velociraptor
Joined: Sep 08, 2008
Age: 23
Posts: 441
Location: Winnipeg, MB, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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How the case is progressing, it seems pretty clear how this is going to end.
Basically, the step-father and the aunt are fighting to have the kids. The step-father is a proud skinhead, the aunt is a social worker. The step-father and bio mother (when they lived together) spent most of their time drinking, smoking pot, and watching white supremacist videos. The children have been living with the aunt, and the toddler is apparently doing much better.
Both of the biological parents are deadbeats at this point. The biological father shows up to court hearings, and makes it clear that while he doesn't want the children with the step-father, HE doesn't want anything to do with them himself.
The biological mother has buggered off to Quebec to escape this conflict, but still insists that she wants her kids back.
It seems like a no-brainer that the aunt will receive full custody. |
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Shadowgirl
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2006
Age: 21
Posts: 500
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history_of_psychiatry
Poopenheimer
Joined: Dec 23, 2006
Age: 25
Posts: 1233
Location: America's penis (Florida)
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| Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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People like that should not be allowed to have children.
_________________
"You look like the piss boy."
"And YOU look like a bucket of sh1t!" |
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Dox47
Phoenix
![]()
Joined: Jan 29, 2008
Age: 27
Posts: 1246
Location: Seattle Area
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| Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| For my two cents, infringing on civil liberties is a greater evil than teaching a kid white supremacy. If nothing else, think how many people who are brought up a certain way later reject it entirely, the many former Catholic atheists being but one example. Involving the state in what is and is not OK to teach your children is just too dangerous, it's far too slippery a slope and far too prone to abuse to even think about going down that road. |
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