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Radiant
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Oct 20, 2009
Posts: 36
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 Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Janissy wrote: | | Greentea wrote: | | Why would the teacher pressure me to tell, if telling is unacceptable? I don't understand... Out of selfishness? Same at work, what do they expect you to do when you have 2 equal bosses giving you opposite instructions, one against the other? I've been fired twice in a row for not knowing what to do in this kind of situation. |
Telling is unacceptable to other kids. To teachers it's important. So kids have to decide which is more important to them in a given scenario- what is unacceptable to fellow kids? Or what is asked for by teachers? You chose the kids. Wise, given that it was just a kiss and nothing more. |
I disagree. Telling is acceptable to many kids. I work with children professionally and it is not as black and white as you present it.
There are many safe avenues to handle various situations that arise. Children are being trained to tell a trusted adult when it is a safety or important rule issue. Kids may protest being told on; however, in the end it is how the situation is handled that is important.
Greentea, in regards to the firings... next time, keep a private journal to refer back to. If there is a union, join it. If the company has an Employee Assistance Program (EAP), use it. |
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Radiant
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Oct 20, 2009
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| willmark wrote: | | Greentea wrote: | Question to the NTs (apart from the one in my previous post):
I get a 50% discount on these parking lots for being a resident of the city. I have a badge given by the municipality, to show I'm a resident. The badge must go onto the right side top corner of the windshield, by law. The cashier at the parking lot is supposed to check to see if I have the badge, then accept my payment of 50%. A couple weeks ago, I told the cashier as usual (it's usually the same cashier there): "I'm a resident" when I gave him only 50% of the money. He said: "Where's the badge?" What did he mean? (Obviously he didn't mean that he didn't know where the badge was, because by law it can only be in one place, and he's supposed to check there, and it was there all right). |
In situations like this where someone is saying something that makes no sense to me, I will ask, "What do you mean?" and in your situation I would point to the badge and say, "You mean that badge?" When people are saying things to me that are making no sense, either because I didn't understand them, or they didn't make themselves clear, either way I cannot respond if I don't know what they mean. |
Just point to the badge where the person was supposed to check while politely saying, "It's here," and be done with it. |
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Radiant
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Oct 20, 2009
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Lepidoptera wrote: | A question for NTs.....
I was reading on another thread here that NTs tend to be repelled by the conservation at WP. Most don't stick around. What is it that makes you leave? Is it the subject matter? Is it the nature of the conversation? Or is it something else?
I don't find the conversation unusual at all and don't know why people would leave unless it's simply disinterest. |
There are many possibilities. Might be the person was seeking specific support or information. When that need was met, the person left. Could be a long list of other things that popped up in the person's life and the person's use of time shifted.
I'm new here and am spending more time than I have. Doubtful I'll sustain that for a long period of time due to other obligations in my life. |
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Radiant
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Oct 20, 2009
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Greentea wrote: | Question to the NTs:
Why is it that when someone talks aggressively to you and you answer aggressively back, they ask you how dare you be aggressive and the people within hearing distance all side with them? |
They may have control issues. Best to try to speak softer than the volume of the aggressor while calmly making your point. or, not engage at all. or, say something like, "Your statements are important to me. I'm going to give them careful consideration and will get back to you." Then turn on your heals and walk away. Next time you see them, smile and wave cheerfully, ask about their new puppy, then run off to a meeting. |
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Radiant
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Oct 20, 2009
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| mechanicalgirl39 wrote: | One for the NTs:
Why is it that certain members of a group, presumably the dominant ones, are allowed to act the asshole, and when you stand up to them you're accused of being aggressive or lacking a sense of humour?? |
Desiderata
Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain and bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs;
for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals;
and everywhere life is full of heroism.
Be yourself.
Especially, do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love;
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment
it is as perennial as the grass.
Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself.
You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful.
Strive to be happy.
Max Ehrmann, Desiderata, Copyright 1952. |
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Radiant
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Oct 20, 2009
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Greentea wrote: | Maybe examples will make clearer what I mean:
Sounds like they all were inappropriate. Unfortunately, you cannot change the world. You can, however, be the change you wish to see in the world. Find an inner place of peace... something you can visualize to help you remember to remain calm... or think of them as someone having a bad day and needing understanding (really)... Sometimes by being more polite we gently remind the other person to self regulate and they then improve their own behavior.
A woman was blocking the exit from the parking lot and wouldn't move. I waited a bit, then honked her. Passers-by got pissed at me.
"Are you okay? I'm not sure you realize that you are blocking the exit." Usually the person then regains manners.
The nurse at the hospital talked to me in a hostile tone. When I answered in the same hostile tone, she started yelling at me. When I yelled exactly the same as her, the rest of the nurses sided with her, of course, and I got chorus yelling, needless to say.
Cornell University TCI training would help those nurses to regulate themselves into not escalating. Author Paul Kivel would explain that as a power and control issue. The nurses will be more kind to you if you are sweet, polite and act as if they are doing a favor by helping you. Since the nurses did not have the ability to be the professional one, you can model the behavior and treatment you wish to receive. or, you could respond to her by saying very softly, "Are you okay? I'm not sure you realized you were talking extra loud." or say in the kind tone you wish she was using, "Would you please repeat that differently? I want to be sure I understand you correctly." Heck, even asking them how their day is and if they've been working all night sometimes helps break down barriers and establish humane human interactions.
A woman kept pushing her cart into my body at the supermarket. When I asked her to stop, the man who was paying at the moment admonished me on her behalf. |
"I'm so sorry that I am in the way of your cart. I appreciate your understanding while we wait in line." or, say nothing and gently put your hand on her cart to stop it from bumping you. |
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Radiant
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Oct 20, 2009
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| mechanicalgirl39 wrote: | | willmark wrote: | | mechanicalgirl39 wrote: | One for the NTs:
Why is it that certain members of a group, presumably the dominant ones, are allowed to act the asshole, and when you stand up to them you're accused of being aggressive or lacking a sense of humor?? |
I don't know how to answer your question. I can't get a mental image of what you are referring to. |
Like when a member of a group behaves really abrasively and when you complain, you hear 'Oh get a sense of humour' or 'Take the rod out of your ass.'
Whereas I am fairly sure that if I bothered other people like that they wouldn't be so accepting. |
NT answer: Depending on the location and whether or not I may have to interact with that person again - I ignore and avoid strangers like that in public.
At work, I might minimize contact while remaining professional at necessary interactions. Finding a common interest human understanding piece also helps at work if you will have to continue to work with that person. Is she going through a divorce? Does his son have cancer? or is he just a jerk? It's up to you to decide how much time and energy you have for it. |
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Radiant
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Oct 20, 2009
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: question |
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| glider18 wrote: | Ok...I have three questions for the NTs (And I don't mind fellow autistics input here as well). I do a music ministry on dulcimers, harmonica, and organ. I travel around to different area churches. This weekend, I am booked at a church where the minister will be absent. He booked me because his church is interested in autism, and he wants me to talk to the congregation some during the ministry about autism in my life. I told him on the phone that I was diagnosed with Asperger's, which is basically considered as a type of high functioning autism. Since his church is interested in autism, he should be educated on it. At the end of the phone conversation, he said, "before church, you should stand next to the entry door and greet people as they enter and introduce yourself." I'm thinking---WHAT!!! Does he know what autism is? I can't comfortably do that. I'm get anxiety already. I usually sit by myself and out of the way and then do my ministry after being introduced. Talking in front of the congregations is awkward enough as it is.
Ok...for the questions...Would you NTs find it offensive if you had an autistic presenter that was not greeting you at the door? And, what is this minister thinking by expecting me to do this? Should I get in touch with him to tell him I can't comfortably greet people like that? I am so awkward that I didn't even discuss my concerns about this with him when we were talking earlier---I usually have to script out stuff. My ministry is scripted out beforehand. I don't do chit chat well at all. |
You could make and wear a name tag that says, "I'm Jeff. I have Asperger's; a type of high functioning autism. I don't do chit chat well."
You could make a one page hand out of your favorite autism / aspergers resources and (1) ask where/leave the stack on a prominent table for everyone to pick up or (2) hand it to the church person who does greet and orient you and say something like, "This is for you to make copies and hand out. I'm not comfortable talking about myself. Thank you for inviting me. Where would you like me to set up [my music]" You've then opened the door for them to educate themselves. Enjoy sharing your music. That sounds wonderful! |
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Radiant
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Oct 20, 2009
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:11 pm Post subject: Re: question |
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[quote="DW_a_mom"] | glider18 wrote: | | Yes, I think you should call him back and explain that this is exactly the sort of thing your autism makes it difficult for you to do. While some autistics get good at it using a version of acting, that isn't common and its still much more stressful than NT's can ever relate to. If he agrees, you can even use this story as part of your speech. |
You do not owe them an explanation. You are not an Aspie Ambassador to the UN. You have free will to live as you please. It is not up to a paraplegic to explain life in a wheelchair. It is not up to blacks or cultural "minorities" to explain anti-racism. As a white, it is my duty to explain anti-racism. It is not up to women to explain what sexism is and how it works.
If you are not comfortable, good for you for knowing your feelings (not every NT knows theirs). Please see my other post on this with suggestions of other ways to handle the situation...
I think you were invited for music ministry, right? so that's what you do. My guess is past the busy minister who might be embarrassed to realize his mistake, you might find individuals their who do understand. Just as you do not represent all aspies, the minister does not represent all in attendance. It's okay to type a list of resources and hand it to them or bring a few books on autism for a display... or... |
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Greentea
Goddess of Wisdom
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Age: 47
Posts: 5500
Location: Middle East
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:55 am Post subject: Re: question |
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| Radiant wrote: | | You do not owe them an explanation. You are not an Aspie Ambassador to the UN. You have free will to live as you please. It is not up to a paraplegic to explain life in a wheelchair. It is not up to blacks or cultural "minorities" to explain anti-racism. As a white, it is my duty to explain anti-racism. It is not up to women to explain what sexism is and how it works. |
So very true and excellently worded !!!! Applause !!!!
Thank you, Radiant. It was a real feast seeing again many of the questions posted and getting more insight about them. Your help's invaluable!! And welcome aboard!
I remember how therapists always used to ask me to explain to them the behavior of others, as if I had any insight into or part in why someone did something hurtful to me. I'd get exhausted trying to come up with possible reasons. One day, recently, I said "stop", and now if someone asks me to explain why someone did something nasty to me, I say "Ask them. They're the ones who did it, not me." I'm not responsible nor should I be able to account for the choices of others on how to behave towards me. I can explain what being a woman is, but why some people discriminate upon women is for them to explain, not me.
_________________
So-called white lies are like fake jewelry. Adorn yourself with them if you must, but expect to look cheap to a connoisseur. |
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willmark
Velociraptor
Joined: May 14, 2009
Age: 59
Posts: 407
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:26 am Post subject: Re: question |
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| Greentea wrote: | | I remember how therapists always used to ask me to explain to them the behavior of others, as if I had any insight into or part in why someone did something hurtful to me. I'd get exhausted trying to come up with possible reasons. One day, recently, I said "stop", and now if someone asks me to explain why someone did something nasty to me, I say "Ask them. They're the ones who did it, not me." I'm not responsible nor should I be able to account for the choices of others on how to behave towards me. I can explain what being a woman is, but why some people discriminate upon women is for them to explain, not me. |
This is interesting. It is in my nature, when someone hurts me, to try to figure out why, or if their actions might have been unintentional, or at least to see if I can determine whether I might have done something that contributed in some way. I might even ask them, not necessarily why, but find indirect ways to determine why. But I am not like most men. |
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willmark
Velociraptor
Joined: May 14, 2009
Age: 59
Posts: 407
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:48 am Post subject: Re: question |
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[quote="Radiant"] | DW_a_mom wrote: | | glider18 wrote: | | Yes, I think you should call him back and explain that this is exactly the sort of thing your autism makes it difficult for you to do. While some autistics get good at it using a version of acting, that isn't common and its still much more stressful than NT's can ever relate to. If he agrees, you can even use this story as part of your speech. |
You do not owe them an explanation. You are not an Aspie Ambassador to the UN. You have free will to live as you please. It is not up to a paraplegic to explain life in a wheelchair. It is not up to blacks or cultural "minorities" to explain anti-racism. As a white, it is my duty to explain anti-racism. It is not up to women to explain what sexism is and how it works.
If you are not comfortable, good for you for knowing your feelings (not every NT knows theirs). Please see my other post on this with suggestions of other ways to handle the situation...
I think you were invited for music ministry, right? so that's what you do. My guess is past the busy minister who might be embarrassed to realize his mistake, you might find individuals their who do understand. Just as you do not represent all aspies, the minister does not represent all in attendance. It's okay to type a list of resources and hand it to them or bring a few books on autism for a display... or... |
My guess is that the minister is one of those outgoing types who has a spiritual gift of Hospitality, and he is certainly demonstrating a lack of understanding of Asperger Syndrome. Personally, as an NT introvert, I would not be at all offended at all if you did not great me at the door. I would expect you to be too busy putting your presentation together to worry with me. Of course it is after a presentation that folks usually want to speak to you. If they enjoyed what you played they will want to express that, or encouragement or something of that nature. Many folks tend to assume everyone else is much the same as them. |
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Greentea
Goddess of Wisdom
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Age: 47
Posts: 5500
Location: Middle East
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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You NEVER contribute to someone's actions, unless you forced them physically or by severe threats to do a specific act. Your behavior and their choice of how to react are not one direct line from point 1 to point 2. There's a point 2 in the middle, that is THEIR choice. Their reaction is point 3, not 2. Unless you believe that, for example, a woman is able to MAKE her partner batter her. Some people believe this twisted lie, preferring to ignore that most men, in the same situation, would choose to leave the woman if she makes him soo angry as to lose it, or suggest couples' counseling or any other reaction. If you believe that for some actions there is only ONE possible reaction, then my words will be meaningless to you, of course. But I've yet to see any action that can only elicit ONE reaction.
_________________
So-called white lies are like fake jewelry. Adorn yourself with them if you must, but expect to look cheap to a connoisseur. |
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willmark
Velociraptor
Joined: May 14, 2009
Age: 59
Posts: 407
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Greentea wrote: | | You NEVER contribute to someone's actions, unless you forced them physically or by severe threats to do a specific act. Your behavior and their choice of how to react are not one direct line from point 1 to point 2. There's a point 2 in the middle, that is THEIR choice. Their reaction is point 3, not 2. Unless you believe that, for example, a woman is able to MAKE her partner batter her. Some people believe this twisted lie, preferring to ignore that most men, in the same situation, would choose to leave the woman if she makes him soo angry as to lose it, or suggest couples' counseling or any other reaction. If you believe that for some actions there is only ONE possible reaction, then my words will be meaningless to you, of course. But I've yet to see any action that can only elicit ONE reaction. |
There are many things about expected behaviors in the world of extroverts that don't just occur to me. On many occasions I have discovered from experience, that some action, or statement that I would not have thought would have been offensive, was in fact offensive, and many informed me of as much. In this situation, the response I received was in fact caused by my action, even though, I would not have thought these actions to have been anything offensive, and though my motivation was certainly not to offend, I offended anyway. Is that clear as mud? After several of these occasions, I have started analyzing the situations leading up to offenses to see if I might have contributed in some way. It's a learning experience for me. |
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Greentea
Goddess of Wisdom
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Age: 47
Posts: 5500
Location: Middle East
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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Their getting offended is point 3, not point 2.
A common reaction is NOT the same as an inevitable reaction. Some actions commonly bring about a certain reaction. That doesn't mean that reaction is inevitable. It only means it's common. Eg: I burp. She rolls her eyes at me. Common reaction, yet not inevitable; she could've reacted in a million other ways, from laughing it off remembering her own gaffes in life, to killing me with a knife. You're responsible for burping. You're NOT responsible for her choice of a reaction - to roll her eyes. You didn't contribute to her contempt. Point 2 is a mixture between what you did and how she interprets it. Point 3 is totally her choice. You did contribute to point 2, but you can never contribute to point 3. I think you're confusing point 2 with point 3. I think Americans have a ball game that involves bases - I think it's called baseball. Think of it in those terms.
An example:
Point 1: You didn't bring Sue a present on her birthday (your responsibility).
Point 2: You didn't bring Sue a present on her birthday (your responsibility) + Sue interpreted it as laziness on your part (her responsibility)
Point 3: Sue put you down and mocked you for spilling the juice in your glass at her birthday party.
I don't have an obligation to explain why Sue put me down and mocked me. That is SUE's choice of action and HER responsibility to explain, if she wishes to. I don't even have an obligation to connect the dots and understand that the put-down and mockery are connected to my not bringing her a present. The only part I do have responsibility for is the part I marked in bold above. That's where my responsibility ends. No therapist should expect me to mind-read the part I marked with underline. That's extra work that is useless, because we usually don't get it right anyway, even less if we're Aspies and lack ToM. Useless, mentally exhausting, time-consuming (all the better for the therapist's kids to enjoy the extra money from you), and crazy-making. Ever since I've started refusing to do this, I've been surprised that people actually respect it and stop nudging me.
But I'm again breaking my own rules on this thread and debating. Shame on me.
NB1: I just burped
NB2: What is it that the one with the huge leather glove does at each of the stations in that game? I was never able to discern it on the TV set...
_________________
So-called white lies are like fake jewelry. Adorn yourself with them if you must, but expect to look cheap to a connoisseur. |
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