A very selfish and manipulative nature - AS trait?

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sunshower
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17 Jul 2009, 5:52 pm

I'm self-centered, but not selfish. There's a clear distinction between the two. I don't consider myself especially selfish, or manipulative.


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AnnaLemma
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17 Jul 2009, 6:06 pm

Based on my own experience of aspies and the single sociopath I encountered, the sociopath came across as a likable and very social guy, and was only pathological if you crossed him in some way. Few folks encountered his bad side and most would call him popular, as he took (or faked) quite an interest in other people. When he went to jail for scamming, many of his victims liked him so much, they refused to believe he did what he was convicted of. Most aspies I know want to be left alone, or do not constantly seek out social situations, don't thrive in complex social exchanges, and while they may be more self-interested, they don't feel the need to get others to do their bidding to the same extent. There are always exceptions, I realize.


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17 Jul 2009, 6:12 pm

I don't think they're related at all. People on the autism spectrum can be selfish but it's a very different kind of selfishness from that of a sociopath, more passive than active. I'll get accused of being selfish for the things I don't do. I hardly ever deliberately harm others in order to benefit myself, unless the other person is someone I harbor an extreme dislike for.

I don't get much of a "warm fuzzy" feeling from acting friendly and sociable. I only ask people questions and attempt small-talk because I know it's expected of me. I don't get too much out of it unless a topic that's more stimulating for me happens to come up. Same thing goes for giving compliments. I don't get much out of it emotionally. I do it because I have to, not because it makes me feel good in any way. I also don't do favors for people unless they specifically ask for them, or when it feels like a favor is to be expected or could be beneficial to the relationship.

On the other hand I'm a stickler to the golden rule, more so than most NT's. A lot of NT's seem to think it's reasonable to abuse people who have done them no harm. This trait really pisses me off. Especially when it takes the form of a mob/herd mentality. I'm the polar opposite to a sociopath in this respect. I actually feel much better being the good Samaritan, sticking up for the little guy, defending people who get ganged up on by a nasty mob.



Last edited by marshall on 17 Jul 2009, 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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17 Jul 2009, 6:22 pm

Self-centered, perhaps... sometimes I don't understand what it going on around me when it gets too chaotic or intense, tend to go into self-preservation mode and most likely am not as helpful or attentive as would be liked. And a degree of selfishness is inherent and healthy for each person to have... but manipulative? That isn't comfortable for me. I tend to ask questions that lead people to ask their own; that's as far down that path as I care to travel.


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17 Jul 2009, 6:54 pm

AnnaLemma wrote:
Based on my own experience of aspies and the single sociopath I encountered, the sociopath came across as a likable and very social guy, and was only pathological if you crossed him in some way. Few folks encountered his bad side and most would call him popular, as he took (or faked) quite an interest in other people. When he went to jail for scamming, many of his victims liked him so much, they refused to believe he did what he was convicted of. Most aspies I know want to be left alone, or do not constantly seek out social situations, don't thrive in complex social exchanges, and while they may be more self-interested, they don't feel the need to get others to do their bidding to the same extent. There are always exceptions, I realize.


As a just-self-diagnosed sociopath, for my lifetime up to this age of 22, I cant completely fit in your discription. I had hardly been a popular person in any real social environment, due to lack of social skills. Nonetheless, as a kid I used to make my younger cousins fight, experiment on insects, told my mother that she is a b***h just to see her reaction. I can explain the intimate purposes behind these urges and actions as experimenting the extreme, pushing to the limits, actualizing the unthinkable. But I always tend to prevent myself to be seen as responsible for these. I always prefer to trigger via other pre-manipulated person. I always try to make a good impression among my superiors and manipulate them to my benefit if possible. These are not things that I strictly follow, I dont decide to act like these. I just act like these.

Having said all these, I show many AS trait as lacking social skills, high interest in linguistics, obsession on certain subjects such as dinosaurs, computer hardware, fish family Cichlidae, DSLRs etc. I cant interact emotionally with people and most of what normal people do tend to seem meaningless to me. Therefore as a person showing AS symptoms, I cant really actuate my sociopathic nature in real life, rather I make my experiments on internet because in this way I dont have to interact with people. Thanks to internet, I easily express myself, make friends, become popular. All these provide the suitable environment to my sociopathic nature. I think I might be a hybrid case.



Last edited by decoder on 17 Jul 2009, 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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17 Jul 2009, 6:55 pm

My theory is sociopathy is more common than most realize and one way to tell if someone might be a sociopath is how much they seem to be trying to get you to like them, ie: trying to gain your trust. If they are too eager to befriend me it makes me nervous because I can't imagine no other reason than they are sociopathic and are up to something.
If they seem lukewarm toward me and act sorta indifferent to me or like they don't think much of me or don't like me too much that's usual and it doesn't seem out of the norm. They could still be a sociopath but they aren't trying to gain my trust for some unknown reason.
As far as being manipulative, I think I am less so than the average person because I am so nervous about talking to people how can I be manipulative when I barely talk to people I don't know that well?
People tend to be manipulative because they have survival needs and they are trying to get those met. Food, shelter, and health insurance require some kind of manipulation or you don't get them. You have to manipulate the interviewer, to some extent, to get a job. You have to make some kind of impression or they toss your resume/application - whatever - aside. Screaming "I really need this job more than the others please hire me PLEASE!! !" before you walk out of the interview could be interpreted as a manipulation of sorts.
Sometimes people are manipulative for more sinsister reasons, because they feel they have been wronged. It's easy to get into "victim" mode and appear manipulative to others even tho it might just be feeling a sense of injustice.
When people are manipulative just to cause others distress it's a different thing entirely. Maybe the sociopath fits into this catagory?
I don't think Aspies are this kind of manipulator, in general.
Most people are selfish, to a certain extent, even when trying to appear altruistic.



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17 Jul 2009, 7:07 pm

AS can be manipulative (in the sense of "desiring to force another person to do something to one's benefit against their will"), though they're not generally very subtle or good at it. For that matter, Aspies can be sociopaths; nothing's stopping the two from co-existing. I think it happens about the same rate as the NT population.

Rate of autism: 1:150, or
Rate of antisocial personality disorder: 3.5%
Chance of both in the same person: 1:428,000

So there should be about 14,000 autistic sociopaths in the world.

There's a difference between manipulating somebody without regard to their feelings and trying to get them to do something for you, though. One presumes that if it can't be called "manipulative", it's a straightforward attempt to influence somebody in a way that doesn't hurt them nor demand more than they should fairly give. There's nothing wrong with asking--just with underhanded tactics like trying to guilt somebody into saying "yes".


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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17 Jul 2009, 7:20 pm

Adj. 1. manipulative - skillful in influencing or controlling others to your own advantage; "the early manipulative techniques of a three-year-old child"

This is one of the definitions of manipulative and it sounds like what people do to get ahead in life.
I am definitely not good at skillfully controlling or influencing others to my own advantage or I'd be more successful.



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17 Jul 2009, 7:35 pm

I don't often think about what other people want, and if I do find out what they want I don't necessarily understand why.

But if I am directly asked for help then I will usually help and not ask for anything in return. And if I am directly asked for something I don't think I need then I will usually give it and not ask for anything in return. Or if I do realize that someone needs something then I will usually give it and not ask anything in return, because I don't need it and they do.

I am not generally manipulative.



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17 Jul 2009, 7:38 pm

As a newbie here, this thread caught my attention. I've been accused of being manipulative and clueless, sometimes by the same person in the same sentence. But based on talks with psychiatrists, psychologists, and neurologists about ASDs and sociopathy, there is little if any overlap.

First, the statistics don't matter. You can't just multiply two numbers together to get an estimated percentage in a population, for all manner of reasons. Besides, the rate of APD and autism both depend on which source you look at, whose diagnostic criteria you use, and that assumes the person is actually diagnosed.

Second, you can't self-diagnose. Please don't do this. I've heard about too many people making too many mistakes in their lives based on a self diagnosis of whatever disease or disorder. See a physician, have the tests, and get the results. Then repeat the process a few times, and check back every few years. Diseases and disorders evolve as people age,

Third, sociopathy comes in many forms, just as the ASDs do. Could someone view me as a sociopath? Certainly. But that person would be misinformed at best. Most people cannot properly define sociopathy or differentiate Asperger's from the other ASDs, so where does that leave us?

Now for my point. I'm sufficiently socially inept and maladroit that I'm accused of virtually every social faux pas. I don't even know what these accusations are about in most cases, nor realize why they matter so much to people. I can cogitate on it, but it doesn't coagulate into anything intuitive or emotive.

I see myself as "asocial", requiring little social interaction. I work alone in a telecommuting situation, make enough to afford to live alone (housemates were a sufficiently miserable and confusing experience that I learned to live on my own), and generally don't see the point of socializing.

Sociopaths, as I understand them, have a personal agenda, see other people as objects to manipulate, and have enough social ability to follow through on their objectives. They also do not have the problems common among ASD people, including seizures, sensory integration or sensitivities issues, food or chemical sensitivities, etc.

I've yet to see anything in the research literature on sociopathy in people on the Autism spectrum. There's discussion, but it's usually limited to debunking the myth/misconception often perpetuated by the media or misinformed public.

Long and detailed was this post, which I see from reviewing it. Another Aspie habit of mine. If you read to the end, thanks.



17 Jul 2009, 7:45 pm

I don't think I'm any. I know we can come off as selfish but we don't intend to. We can also come off as manipulative and self centered.

My ex thought I was self centered though.

Quote:
Adj. 1. manipulative - skillful in influencing or controlling others to your own advantage; "the early manipulative techniques of a three-year-old child"


So according to the dictionary, parents are manipulative. They control their kids and tell them what to do and give them punishments for not listening and they also threaten them with punishments to get them to listen. To avoid that, you have to be a lazy parent and you let your kids run wild and they are undisciplined so not all manipulating is bad, it just depends on what it is. I think everyone is manipulative to an extent just like everyone is selfish at times and self centered.



fiddlerpianist
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17 Jul 2009, 8:09 pm

Callista wrote:
Rate of autism: 1:150, or
Rate of antisocial personality disorder: 3.5%
Chance of both in the same person: 1:428,000

So there should be about 14,000 autistic sociopaths in the world.

Huh? That would only be the case if the two were known to be unrelated. And does APD the same thing as a sociopath?


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17 Jul 2009, 8:55 pm

I find manipulating others extremely distasteful and repulsive, sometimes even in the more benign sense of learning new social skills so I'll be welcomed and listened to in group discussions.

I think that someone who enjoys manipulating others just to see their reaction, without regard to their suffering as a result, (whether in person or on-line) is a sociopath. Maybe lack of social skills is merely extreme introversion and not AS.



AnnaLemma
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17 Jul 2009, 8:56 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
My theory is sociopathy is more common than most realize and one way to tell if someone might be a sociopath is how much they seem to be trying to get you to like them, ie: trying to gain your trust. If they are too eager to befriend me it makes me nervous because I can't imagine no other reason than they are sociopathic and are up to something.


This is very funny and dead on the behavior of the sociopath I mentioned. He was waaay too friendly to me at first. When he figured out that I couldn't do anything for him, he totally ignored me and even inconvenienced me on purpose a couple of times. He really sucked up to my husband and continued to, since my husband was his "computer guy" (ironically my husband was one of the main witnesses against him at trial). I disliked him from the first, but couldn't figure out why, although the unexplained extreme friendliness was part of it. I did indeed wonder what he was up to.


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17 Jul 2009, 9:26 pm

AnnaLemma wrote:
I disliked him from the first, but couldn't figure out why, although the unexplained extreme friendliness was part of it. I did indeed wonder what he was up to.


I have seen people who just met being really friendly before, men and women, and it made me nervous and I wondered why I was the only one. I used to think while watching them why it didn't seem strange to the one recieving the overly friendly overtures because when that happens to me it has that effect on me - inner anxiety. The funny thing is, it's supposed to put people at ease and it does with some but not with me. It's the opposite.
Regular "disinterested" friendly is what I am used to seeing. It's a lukewarm version but it's not downright rude, dismissive, behaviour though some people might think it is if they are used to the really warm, enthusiastic "salesmen" type overtures.
I feel uneasy when a salesperson pounces, too, and that's the kind of friendly I mean, the "salesman" type only it's not salesmen (I know why salesmen are this way, they want me to buy something from them and they are trying to put me at ease but they don't know it often alienates me so I begin looking at stuff and they leave me alone and say "let me know if you need anything";) ) and that's why I wonder. Then again, they could just be a naturally friendly, helpful person with no hidden agenda but how many people are really like that? Few and far between.
I guess what I am getting at is all kinds of friendlies aren't sociopathic ones. Just a specific type of friendly.



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17 Jul 2009, 9:32 pm

mm they 'court' you, sociopaths.