Question for the Aspie males that want girlfriends.

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hale_bopp
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05 Mar 2010, 4:00 am

Kilroy wrote:
well thats a personal thing
but the first times are just to have fun, and a lot of people don't understand that


Thats probably because you can't just inflict your opinion on the rest of the world. Because thats what it is, an opinion, not a fact.



Kilroy
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05 Mar 2010, 6:41 am

did I say "this is fact you're all wrong"
no I didn't



Sound
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05 Mar 2010, 4:21 pm

Thanks, dtoxic.

First I gotta ask: By your wording, apparently most people wouldn't be worthwhile to take the time to elaborate your point? It's simply not worth it to condescend to converse with them...?

Your background virtually mirrors my own in myriad ways. It's pretty freaky, actually, how much that sounded like me. Even the 40 minute showers, heh. It's sort of like meditation time, for me. But obviously minus the deodorant, I have my own hangups. ;)
In particular, when you describe the juxtaposition between high self-esteem(based off clear merit) and strong, chronic letdowns such as women problems and 'underachieving,' you really struck a chord with me. I don't know how common, or closely, others with AS experience what you've described, but I'd be curious to find out.

Now...
When you describe 'rage,' I think I understand the idea you're pointing at. I'm guessing it's not quite a foreground thing, more like a common thread in your perception of some of the things in the world. Like the rigged system you described, or things that appear to be arbitrary social requirements, and other things that are inaccurate, misrepresented, usurped, wrong, or could be better but won't change. I'm guessing that is what you mean by rage? An apprehension, frustration, resentment for that sort of thing?

Whether I got that right or wrong, I'll run with that, and then wonder: Understanding much of the stupid s**t you just described or allude to, why would anyone not be horrified?
The most immediate thing that pops into my head is that many people simply don't objectively see the pattern they're running through, they just take the arbitrary social indoctrinations they've been given and don't even think about it. A kind of laziness, or flat out lack of objective awareness. Or perhaps they don't care, because it works to their favor.

Well what about me? I feel like I see what you're saying; I think I've taken the red pill, and I see the matrix. And yet I don't feel the overwhelming sense of HULK SMASH, as you apparently do. It's weird because I have all the reason in the world to resent the BS hoops that we all have to go through; Like you, the current setup does not favor me, even if I've learned how to mitigate my own peculiarities, navigate many of these minefields.
Yet I seemingly don't, for the most part, feel that angry with this state of things, at least in regards to the 'love and dating' umbrella.... Why?

Honestly, I have no f*****g clue, and I'm really perplexed.
I vaguely remember being pissed off about the same style things about 5 years ago, but the next year I felt differently. This was a period where I started to see how things really worked, and how many of my prior conceptions of love & dating were bass ackwards. Now, the logical train of thought, I figure, would be that I've experienced something in my life around then to offset that resentment somehow. Or otherwise been granted a perspective shift to defuse this resentment. And I can't for the life of me figure out when exactly that happened, what it was.
I'm wracking my head here, but I'm coming up blank. I can't remember, I can't think of it. Or maybe I already know it but for some reason I'm not putting 2+2 together. It's a dead end for the moment....

But moving beyond that hitch, based on your writings, I'd conclude this: Your attitude is whats holding you back with women, and not so much your execution or inclusion of certain habits or rituals, etc.

As for skipping out on saying some things that you're thinking, I gotta tell ya, most people don't see that as dishonesty. Most would consider it a major courtesy to avoid saying things, or acting in a way that make others feel uncomfortable. To resent having to hold back all your thoughts and feelings is, frankly, selfish, since what you say and do innately impacts others.

Now at least somewhat, I get it - Personally, I have to monitor myself, because I've frequently found myself pedantically monologue at people about some ponderous subject when they were never interested in the first place... And yet I really wish I could totally share what I'm thinking. But the fact of the matter is that people just don't want to hear that s**t.
And we'd feel the same if we were in their shoes.

And to clarify, although I use my monologuing as an example, I mean this in a much broader sense, regarding the things we say and shouldn't say. The end result is still applicable.

Next I take serious issue with your mentality, where apparently you're one of the good guys, and the men who are socially responsive and successful are simply using women. I recognize that some of that is simply hyperbole on your part, but in reality, how precisely are your intentions that much better than the average guy? Why are you so righteous, and they are not?
You're not that different. Granted, there's some guys out there who are more self-absorbed, and are interested in only what they can get out of a woman, but it shouldn't be used as an excuse to go off on a pessimistic, jingoistic, stereotyping rampage.
...I keep seeing guys talk like this, making themselves out like they're the island in a sea of pigs and chauvinists. It's misrepresentative, pessimistic, overly simplistic, self-aggrandizing, and it's driving me nuts.
... but that's my problem. :?

Now... Another thing, for the sake of seeking clarification... You mention a system that's made to benefit those at the top. I see what you mean here: There is a smaller subset of men who've had sex with a ton of women, and a huge subset of men who have sex with maybe 2 people in their life.
But here's the catch... Men didn't set that up; Women did. They choose who they go home with after last call. So when it comes down to it, all those guys who only mate up with one or two women throughout their lives? Well, women clearly didn't select them when the choice was consciously available. So if you're angry with this system, then in reality you're angry at women for not wanting you as-is.

But what about the choices that we make as men? Are there not women left out in the cold according to the selection process men use? This isn't a system we got together and devised to make women dance to our tune; It's either innate, or unconsciously absorbed from the broader social group. Fairness is not applicable except as an active resistance towards our impulses or nature. And so, too, is the case with women. Yes, they could decide to go out with the slightly more square guy who's perhaps smarter, more stable, and willing to bend over backwards, but they'd be doing it either contrary to their own whims, or because they have not had a choice of what they perceive as a 'hotter' guy. It works the same both ways.

Imagine a woman that didn't particularly enjoy going through the trouble to care for her looks, or to exude any of the various traits that a guy like you prefers. So she didn't bother with any of that, opting to 'be herself,' in the most rigid sense, and remaining as-is, contrary to well-established and reliable guidelines for snagging a guy. Chances are pretty good that you'd pass her right over - She doesn't do anything attractive, and so you are not attracted to her.
Should she resent you for that?

Blah, although there's a number of things knocking around in my head regarding your post, I'm losing coherence here, and am rambling in-concisely.
So enough word count. End post. =op



therange
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05 Mar 2010, 4:32 pm

Excellent points, Sound. I doubt dtoxic spent the first 30something years of his life dreaming of Oprah or Queen Latifah.



Sound
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05 Mar 2010, 4:35 pm

...Are you dissing Queen Latifah?
I VILL BREAK YOU.



hale_bopp
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05 Mar 2010, 7:22 pm

Kilroy wrote:
did I say "this is fact you're all wrong"
no I didn't


You pretty much implied it.



Kilroy
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05 Mar 2010, 7:27 pm

hale_bopp wrote:
Kilroy wrote:
did I say "this is fact you're all wrong"
no I didn't


You pretty much implied it.

unless I say something then i don't mean it



dtoxic
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06 Mar 2010, 12:39 am

Damn. I thought my long post would answer the questions but it seems to have only opened the floodgates.

Sound wrote:
First I gotta ask: By your wording, apparently most people wouldn't be worthwhile to take the time to elaborate your point? It's simply not worth it to condescend to converse with them...?

Nah, it was just that I think I lost Hale-Bopp with the misperceived sexism, and therange seemed out of the picture, and you were the last person showing interest in the conversation. And I like to talk to intelligent people who have a thick enough skin to stay engaged despite disagreement, and you qualify. So I wasn't trying to put anybody down.

Sound wrote:
I'm guessing that is what you mean by rage?


Rage at the stupidity of (much of) the human race. Rage at being ignored by women. Rage at being told how to be, or who to be. I have serious problems with authority because it reminds me of being bullied, and because there is often a lack of logic in how humans (NTs in particular) operate. I have always taken pride in being a maverick, doing things my way, Sinatra style. And as Marilyn Manson says, "I wasn't born with enough middle fingers." It was never good enough for me to do things because somebody else said that was how they should be done - I needed a logical reason. If they had one, great. If not, I would do it the logical way and spurn tradition. I broke everything down, empiricist style, and decided what the best, most efficient way was to do things, and I did them that way, and a lot of people got all discombobulated because it wasn't the prescribed way. I thought they were stupid, and I had supreme confidence in my own analysis and methods - again, some would call this a superiority complex, and they would have a good case.
Systemic stupidity has always aroused my rage - the war on drugs, the war in Iraq, irrational churchy people, pedophile priesthoods, red tape bureaucrats, you name it, it pisses me off. Do I have an anger problem? Yeah, pretty much.

Sound wrote:
Your attitude is whats holding you back with women.


Of course - that's where the previous paragraph neatly deposits us. But since my attitude rests on my perceptions and their logical interpretation, my attitude is not something I can change like a pair of boxers. I'll freely admit to being a stubborn motherf#$ker. But the stubbornness is with believing my view of the world to be logical, and the angry, contemptuous attitude that follows from it is also logical. I can't just change my attitude - maybe some people can - I'd have to tear down my whole worldview and rebuild it from scratch, which I can't do because I feel I am seeing clearly. I cannot lie to myself, because I am not fooled when I do so. Therefore it is not possible for me to simply put on rose-colored glasses.


Sound wrote:
As for skipping out on saying some things that you're thinking, I gotta tell ya, most people don't see that as dishonesty.


Sure, I get that. I mean more serious omissions. I'm too honest all the time, and it costs me. Whereas I see guys who are broke trying to get laid, and they succeed by withholding that info. It doesn't work well to mention that. Which makes me depressed with the behavior of both parties - she's digging for gold, and he's hiding the fact that this mine is empty.

Sound wrote:
Next I take serious issue with your mentality, where apparently you're one of the good guys, and the men who are socially responsive and successful are simply using women. I recognize that some of that is simply hyperbole on your part, but in reality, how precisely are your intentions that much better than the average guy? Why are you so righteous, and they are not?


It's good that you are calling me (and the rest of the omega male crowd) out on this one. We in the lonely-guy crowd do oversimplify our underdog situation by castigating virtually everybody else as some kind of scumbag top dog. That happens because we talk about this issue so much that we are using that wording as a kind of shorthand for the real story, which is this:
-We believe that women place too much emphasis on first impressions when meeting men in general.
-From this standpoint there are four kinds of guy:
1.Good guys who make good first impressions.
2.Bad guys who make good first impressions.
3.Good guys who make bad first impressions.
4.Bad guys who make bad first impressions.
-Women want category 1. I hereby acknowledge that these men exist, and are good catches for a woman.
-Because women place too much emphasis on first impressions, they wind up with 1's and 2's but not 3's or 4's. Obviously it's good they avoid the 4's. But...
-I'm a 3. So are a lot of lonely aspie guys. We tend to be invisible to women because we flunk that first impression test. We believe a lot of women are not even aware of category 3.
-WE HATE LOSING OUT TO THOSE SCUMBAG 2's. That's where all the bitterness lies. We're better than those guys.
-We see that if women overemphasize first impressions, and if the categories are about the same size, women have a 50% chance of getting a good man using their criteria - no better than random. I know the math could be a little wonky but you get my point in general.
-We wish more women were aware of category 3. We get depressed when we see women get used by 2's, knowing how much better a bet we are as a mate. But you're right, there are plenty of 1's out there and our best bet is to become one by working on our first impressions with all that advice we've been talking about.

Sound wrote:
But what about the choices that we make as men? Are there not women left out in the cold according to the selection process men use?


Absolutely. I addressed this point in the "Biological...something" thread in this forum (started by therange).



AutisticMalcontent
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06 Mar 2010, 1:33 am

therange wrote:
What exactly is it that a woman would solve in your life? If you're socially inept, aren't very interesting (to the NT crowd, i.e. the women you want) and are untreated for depression, what exactly is a woman going to do to make things better? If anything, she'll judge you more than your worst enemy, and dump you sooner than later.

What I'm saying is, all of the guys on here who complain about not having a girlfriend are breaking the number one dating rule...neediness. Women will sense that you'll do anything to impress or keep her, and she'll be scared off and leave. So basically, you're just wasting time thinking about getting a girlfriend. You can take the route some guys take on here and get an internet girlfriend and maybe meet up with her...if she doesn't live close, take a plane or train and meet her and maybe she'll like you for your current depressed self, but really, women want guys who are interesting and aren't negative and have a bad opinion of the opposite sex. Women want guys who can carry a conversation and have interests other than video games and science fiction.

My point being that you're wasting precious time hating the opposite sex and the world instead of improving your life.


You're absolutely right, about neediness being a turn off, and about how having a girlfriend won't solve all the problems you're having in life. I should know personally, I wasted so much time and effort in the past trying to find a girlfriend, and it got me absolutely nowhere. I tried all kind of methods, paid for dating services, the whole nine yards. In the end, I realized it wasn't worth the effort I was putting into it, and I realized that having a girlfriend really didn't change anything at all.

Once I stopped pursuing women, once I stopped caring, I found release from the obligation that I felt that I had to accomplish- finding a significant other. I focused on my own interests, work, and friends. Friends to me are 1,000 times more valuable than any significant other, they last longer, and they provide good advice and are always around.

There are times where I do get somewhat lonely, but I know that I don't need to be around woman romantically to be happy. I have learned early on that I can't depend on women romantically, therefore I have no substantial need for them in that area. I'd sooner be interested in being friends, a lot less expectations, and a lot less effort and time put forth. That's my two cents.



therange
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06 Mar 2010, 2:14 am

dtoxic wrote:

Sound wrote:
But what about the choices that we make as men? Are there not women left out in the cold according to the selection process men use?


Absolutely. I addressed this point in the "Biological...something" thread in this forum (started by therange).


I have mixed feelings. On one hand, I'm guilty of going on dating sites, just looking at the pictures and not even opening up the woman's profile unless I'm at least somewhat attracted. On the other hand, like I mentioned in the Biology and Lust thread, I was talking to a girl who though extremely attractive, wasn't friendly (to me at least) at all and instead of persisting (which most likely would have been pointless anyway) I told her "I don't feel comfortable talking to you" and deleted her off my friend's list.

Not to get into a lust discussion, I think most guys (I can't speak for all, but most) while attraction matters to a certain extent, figure out that certain women despite their physical appearance aren't worth getting to know.

I'm not sure about DToxic, but I guess what always frustrated me is that while I'm picky about looks, the women I like (as in like, not just want to sleep with) are usually in my league, at least looks-wise. So now I'm working on getting the social skills as improved as possible without selling out (i.e. being some guy that I'm not and partying.)



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06 Jul 2010, 11:00 pm

What exactly is it that a woman would solve in your life? If you're socially inept, aren't very interesting (to the NT crowd, i.e. the women you want) and are untreated for depression, what exactly is a woman going to do to make things better? If anything, she'll judge you more than your worst enemy, and dump you sooner than later.

What I'm saying is, all of the guys on here who complain about not having a girlfriend are breaking the number one dating rule...neediness. Women will sense that you'll do anything to impress or keep her, and she'll be scared off and leave. So basically, you're just wasting time thinking about getting a girlfriend. You can take the route some guys take on here and get an internet girlfriend and maybe meet up with her...if she doesn't live close, take a plane or train and meet her and maybe she'll like you for your current depressed self, but really, women want guys who are interesting and aren't negative and have a bad opinion of the opposite sex. Women want guys who can carry a conversation and have interests other than video games and science fiction.

My point being that you're wasting precious time hating the opposite sex and the world instead of improving your life.



:lol:



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06 Jul 2010, 11:53 pm

therange wrote:
What exactly is it that a woman would solve in your life? If you're socially inept, aren't very interesting (to the NT crowd, i.e. the women you want) and are untreated for depression, what exactly is a woman going to do to make things better? If anything, she'll judge you more than your worst enemy, and dump you sooner than later.

I am not totally socially inept, but I do have my idiosyncracies, whether that is peculiar interests, or strange reactions to things that others say or do. But I can also react with empathy and have some social characteristics, such as wanting to help people when they are in trouble. They are sometimes nicely surprised that they get unexpected help. I am not depressed (don't know if there is some correlation between depression and autism), although I realize that that is just an example. I think I am pretty interesting, because the NT people often are interested to have a conversation with me, and I am capable to make a conversation enjoyable not only for me, but also for my conversation partner. I am sometimes explicitly described as an interesting man. There are always new things for them that I know, and that they want to know, too.

Quote:
What I'm saying is, all of the guys on here who complain about not having a girlfriend are breaking the number one dating rule...neediness. Women will sense that you'll do anything to impress or keep her, and she'll be scared off and leave. So basically, you're just wasting time thinking about getting a girlfriend. You can take the route some guys take on here and get an internet girlfriend and maybe meet up with her...if she doesn't live close, take a plane or train and meet her and maybe she'll like you for your current depressed self, but really, women want guys who are interesting and aren't negative and have a bad opinion of the opposite sex. Women want guys who can carry a conversation and have interests other than video games and science fiction.

Women sometimes think I am not intested in them, but that is mainly because I cannot read signals the most of the time. And I agree with you: I am practicing in having conversations about things they (not necessarily women, but that could b e any people) might be interested in. Sometimes I ask questions about things that they say before, but that are not interesting for me per se. For them that is a signal that I am not only interested in my things. Sometimes someone says something and my interest for that is suddenly awakened, an interest that I didn't have before.



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07 Jul 2010, 12:09 am

Stinkypuppy wrote:
1) Why does the eternally lonely Aspie guy (i.e. subset of AS male population) think that a girlfriend is required for the above, as opposed to a friend-who-is-a-girl?

I have had several had female NT friends, sometimes for a short period of time, sometimes because she is a colleague. I remember an NT woman that I saw almost each day. And each day I had a conversation with her about several things. There were some common interests: both she and I were interested in music, but there were also other things that differed: she was a metallurgist (it is a bit strange because metallurgists are men most of the time, not women). I of course was interested in World of Warcraft, but I didn't often mention it when speaking with her, because I knew, she wasn't interested in that.

But although she was an NT woman, she was more introverted than I was. I like to have fun with my colleagues at work (which makes me popular), while she wants to be on her own. I notice that the colleagues like her less than me, for that reason.

Quote:
2) If the eternally lonely Aspie guy doesn't have the social skills to maintain a friendship with a friend-who-is-a-girl, on what logical basis does he think that he has the means to maintain a relationship with a girlfriend?

I at least am capable of maintaining a friendship with an NT woman, without necessarily being a (sexual0 relationship.



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07 Jul 2010, 12:27 am

therange wrote:
What exactly is it that a woman would solve in your life? If you're socially inept, aren't very interesting (to the NT crowd, i.e. the women you want) and are untreated for depression, what exactly is a woman going to do to make things better? If anything, she'll judge you more than your worst enemy, and dump you sooner than later.

What I'm saying is, all of the guys on here who complain about not having a girlfriend are breaking the number one dating rule...neediness. Women will sense that you'll do anything to impress or keep her, and she'll be scared off and leave. So basically, you're just wasting time thinking about getting a girlfriend. You can take the route some guys take on here and get an internet girlfriend and maybe meet up with her...if she doesn't live close, take a plane or train and meet her and maybe she'll like you for your current depressed self, but really, women want guys who are interesting and aren't negative and have a bad opinion of the opposite sex. Women want guys who can carry a conversation and have interests other than video games and science fiction.

My point being that you're wasting precious time hating the opposite sex and the world instead of improving your life.


Most eloquently put, indeed this kind of view of life and what would be a solution isn't going to work. You guys really need to get yourselves out the rut you're in and move on and who knows, you might just find the woman (or man) of your dreams.

Cheers,
Paul



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08 Jul 2010, 9:19 pm

What we have to offer a woman they can get from a dog why would she settle for a dog when she can have the human + dog. I'm glad I'm borderline asexual. 8)

I suspect when many aspies here grow up, get their co co morbid conditions under control they to may realise their borderline asexual/asexual.

Lady GAGA

I'm asexual and that's OK.

This is the sort of S%$t they should be teaching in schools , it would be a far less screwed up world if they did. :) I suspect theirs been a lot of NT BS that's been hard wired in to our brains , from a young age :roll: (well that's been my experiences anyways ) going on here, do you really really want a relationship? :wink: