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Horus
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08 Jul 2010, 10:56 pm

another_1 wrote:


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I realize that an IQ test is supposed to test one's ability to learn, not specific knowledge. Still, the more you know, well, the better you're likely to do.



This is true when it comes to certain sub-measures (subtests) on IQ tests....at least when it comes to IQ tests like Weschler. A person's scores on the information, comprehension and vocabulary subtests are very dependent upon what they know.

The information subtest on WAIS is little more than a game of "Jeopardy" in a clinical setting.

Examples of typical questions on the information subtest:

Who wrote Alice in Wonderland?

At what temperature does water boil?

Who was the president during the civil war?



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09 Jul 2010, 12:41 am

Janissy wrote:

These are all good explanations for a drop in IQ test score. I also consider it yet more evidence that there is but a faint correlation between IQ test score and intelligence. If a person's score can drop even as they acquire skills, a broader knowledge base and wisdom, then what is the point of saying that IQ tests measure intelligence? Is a person actually less smart because their eyes and fingers don't work as well as they used to? If the test says that yes, they are less smart because of that, then I think there's something wrong with the test.


I have issues with the reliance on speed. I have to take frequent computer breaks, about every 10-15 minutes. I can't see why online tests couldn't be programmed to allow for breaks without the possibility of cheating. Maybe there are indeed tests with such a feature, and I'm not aware because I haven't clicked "start test" yet on any of them. I won't go into them until I'm ready to take the actual test. Just a thing with me. I'd feel going in and seeing the any questions before I'm serious about it as cheating.

I think and speak fine if I don't have pain, which hasn't been too often in the last 10 years. Pain can make one very apathetic, not to mention the drugs you have to take. I have to take analgesics now as anti-inflammatory drugs tend to make me ill, so that's new. They work better, but have more mental affects. The visual issues are more recent than the pain. I'll figure out a way to compensate (have started via audiobooks and I'm thinking that connecting the computer to the TV could work). I'm thinking I'll be fine, but I'm still in the process of adjustment. There are many who I can well imagine have it worse and find workarounds.

I believe in the "use it or lose it" philosophy, but that's not always the case, such as with Alzheimer's/Diabetes III, which I'd rather die than get. Young brains have more flexibility, however I guess they are learning that the brain is far more plastic in maturity than once thought. If you develop good learning (and nutrition) habits as a kid, I think you're good for the most part. But things do slow down, how much depends on a lot of different factors, including diet, but it's as inevitable as ultimate death. Hopefully we can all live long enough to experience the "joys" of aging. ;)



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09 Jul 2010, 2:18 am

I guess it depends on what an IQ test is supposed to measure. If it's supposed to be some inherent trait that is unaffected by learning (like how fast your reflexes are), that would make sense. OTOH, a person's functioning in the world depends on more -- knowledge does matter. I.e. there's no History or Advanced Chemistry (or "how to deal with the DMV when they lose your check") sections on IQ tests.

It seems like measuring someones reflexes, which would decrease with age. OTOH, a basketball player with 10 years of experience with strategy and other knowledge may have an edge even if his reflexes are a little slower. So I guess my point is a slight IQ drop due to age probably doesn't matter much. You spend less time re-inventing the wheel, and know more tricky/clever solutions from having seen them before.



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09 Jul 2010, 2:27 am

My IQ has always been all over the place. One test gives me one score, and another will have radically different results. The only common pattern across the tests is in the area of Verbal Intelligence.

I measure intelligence by what is produced by myself or another person in various projects. IQ tests seem too unrealiable. Wait another century, and maybe we'll have crafted a perfect test for measuring intelligence.


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09 Jul 2010, 8:54 am

I've heard that IQ drops is some populations, particularly autistics and those born prematurely. The reason would be that developmental expectations increase but we don't learn them at the same pace. I've neve r heard IQ drops in childhood/adolescence in the general population though.



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09 Jul 2010, 10:26 am

Because the measurement of IQ is complete crap in the first place?



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09 Jul 2010, 10:31 am

Willard wrote:
I don't believe there's any truth to that. The very notion doesn't even make sense. It would be one thing if they were referring to senile dementia or something, but IQ drops between 12 and 17? That's preposterous.



The I.Q. dilemma is that 'general fluid intelligence' does indeed drop off after only at the age of 26 and thenceforth progressively declines .
The best mathematicians do their "best work " not much after 30.

But on the other side of coin, 'crystallized intelligence'(another component of I.Q.) increases (or a least should on the proviso you use your noggin) with age as knowledge is as the nodes that are in a 'net' ; the more nodes on the net ,the wider the catch, and hence the' wider the horizon' to catch more ideas .
Learning never stops.



edit : spelling



Last edited by Mdyar on 09 Jul 2010, 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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09 Jul 2010, 11:04 am

IQ compares where you stand against your peers.

In childhood there is more variation in knowledge gained.

As you age the peer group has caught up.

So you are exactly as smart as you always were.

Just that everyone else has more knowledge than they did in early childhood.

The playing field has been equalized somewhat.


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09 Jul 2010, 11:47 am

I'm not going to pretend to know what the exact formulas are for determining IQ, but here's what I do know and understand:

IQ scores are fluid. Your scoring on a test (right against wrong answers as a percentage) are absolute, but that is not your IQ. Your IQ comes from comparing your score with scores from everyone else in your age group.

For example, if you are 20 years old, and score 75% correct answers on the test, and the average score is 75% for everyone 20 years old, then your IQ is 100. If you take the test again, at 25 years and your score is 80%, and the average 25 year old's scores are also at 80%, your IQ is still 100.

What this means is that if between the age of twenty and twenty-five, your score doesn't increase, but everyone else's does, your score will drop below 100. It's all about averages within particular age groups. If your absolute score remains the same while the average score increases, your IQ score drops. If your absolute score increases by more than the average absolute score increase, your IQ will increase.

It's all about balancing your score against the average of people in your age group. I have no idea how the age groups are divided up (it could be by exact age, or by age ranges, I honestly don't know.)

The whole idea behind scoring in this manner presumes that everyone learns more as they age. Therefore, balancing scores from 50 year old's against 20 year old's doesn't make sense. Because of the way IQ's are determined, someone with an IQ of 120 at fifty years old is presumably "smarter" than someone at 20 years old with the same IQ.

For someone with an IQ of 120 at age twenty to share the same intelligence as someone at fifty with IQ of 120 would mean that the average twenty year old shares the intelligence level of the average fifty year old.

As I said, I DO NOT know what the formulas are that are used. I only know that these are the principles behind the scoring.


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09 Jul 2010, 12:48 pm

MrXxx wrote:
I'm not going to pretend to know what the exact formulas are for determining IQ, but here's what I do know and understand:

IQ scores are fluid. Your scoring on a test (right against wrong answers as a percentage) are absolute, but that is not your IQ. Your IQ comes from comparing your score with scores from everyone else in your age group.

For example, if you are 20 years old, and score 75% correct answers on the test, and the average score is 75% for everyone 20 years old, then your IQ is 100. If you take the test again, at 25 years and your score is 80%, and the average 25 year old's scores are also at 80%, your IQ is still 100.

What this means is that if between the age of twenty and twenty-five, your score doesn't increase, but everyone else's does, your score will drop below 100. It's all about averages within particular age groups. If your absolute score remains the same while the average score increases, your IQ score drops. If your absolute score increases by more than the average absolute score increase, your IQ will increase.

It's all about balancing your score against the average of people in your age group. I have no idea how the age groups are divided up (it could be by exact age, or by age ranges, I honestly don't know.)

The whole idea behind scoring in this manner presumes that everyone learns more as they age. Therefore, balancing scores from 50 year old's against 20 year old's doesn't make sense. Because of the way IQ's are determined, someone with an IQ of 120 at fifty years old is presumably "smarter" than someone at 20 years old with the same IQ.

For someone with an IQ of 120 at age twenty to share the same intelligence as someone at fifty with IQ of 120 would mean that the average twenty year old shares the intelligence level of the average fifty year old.

As I said, I DO NOT know what the formulas are that are used. I only know that these are the principles behind the scoring.


To simplify if I may :

The psychologist( U.S.A.) take a random sample of subjects, lets say it is 2,330, and test "these" with questions that tap into cognitive ability .
They norm this sample by taking the mean score and the highest score. Arbitrarily, the highest score in this scenario is converted to an I.Q of 150, as the ceiling of this test , due to a 1 in 2,330 rarity or 99.9570883466 percentile . It doesn't matter how many were answered correctly , what is relevant is it was the highest number of correct answers whatever that may be. The mean score is the person exactly in the middle score range and this is assigned a score of 100 or a rarity in 1 out 2 or 50th percentile.

Let's say I come along now at the ripe old middle aged fellow that I am ,and want to know how clever or not I am , and spend $500 to be tested .
They then tally up my "correct answers" and it matches with someone who scored in the mean or center of this sample.
They then tell me you are " AVERAGE " and your I.Q. is 100.

There is not an age adjustment.

What is more , if you were to take this test to Israel ; the mean score there would correspond to someone in the 85 percentile in the U.S.
(This is something that is published in a book I own : " A question of intelligence"- and this is probably controversial , but so is this concept of intelligence testing ,as it has morphed into a juggernaut that it is).

The test would have to be re-normed again in Israel to find the mean score ,and make the new Bell Curve..



Last edited by Mdyar on 10 Jul 2010, 11:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.

ruveyn
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09 Jul 2010, 12:48 pm

Progressive brain rot in old age.

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09 Jul 2010, 12:56 pm

I've heard this too though in my case, my IQ dropped due to an unfortunately traumatic accident from several years ago.Still, I'd say IQ can fluctuate in a person throughout his/her lifetime based upon various scenarios of educational experiences as well other instances of learning overall..



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09 Jul 2010, 1:01 pm

I don't think it's so much about IQ dropping, but becoming more "set in stone," as you get older. A lot of older people cannot understand what 2-3 generations coming up on them are doing (I'd imagine the extent of computers was a bit of a system shock for much of the older crowd). Pretty much, as you get older, you're less interested in learning and more interested in doing what you want, when you want, and how. Becoming set in your ways does not imply a lower IQ. As long as you're willing to learn and change, your IQ should remain fairly steady.



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09 Jul 2010, 1:54 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
Because the measurement of IQ is complete crap in the first place?


Thank You ! !!

IQ tests measure your ability to take IQ tests ! ! (DUH)
They don't measure your life abilities, or social abilities. I've met members of Mensa who have miserable lives. As for the test results declining with age, Bollocks ! !!
Who would you ask advice from? A twentysomething with a 'High IQ'? Or an eighty year old with a lifetime of wisdom and experience ??

As they say in the states, PUHHHHLEEEZZZEEEEE ! !!


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09 Jul 2010, 1:57 pm

Your level of intelligence doesn't drop. As you grow older, you're expected to have more knowledge than you did when you were, say, 12. It compares you to your peers, as one of the above posters said.



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09 Jul 2010, 2:24 pm

Mdyar wrote:
MrXxx wrote:
I'm not going to pretend to know what the exact formulas are for determining IQ, but here's what I do know and understand:

IQ scores are fluid. Your scoring on a test (right against wrong answers as a percentage) are absolute, but that is not your IQ. Your IQ comes from comparing your score with scores from everyone else in your age group.

For example, if you are 20 years old, and score 75% correct answers on the test, and the average score is 75% for everyone 20 years old, then your IQ is 100. If you take the test again, at 25 years and your score is 80%, and the average 25 year old's scores are also at 80%, your IQ is still 100.

What this means is that if between the age of twenty and twenty-five, your score doesn't increase, but everyone else's does, your score will drop below 100. It's all about averages within particular age groups. If your absolute score remains the same while the average score increases, your IQ score drops. If your absolute score increases by more than the average absolute score increase, your IQ will increase.

It's all about balancing your score against the average of people in your age group. I have no idea how the age groups are divided up (it could be by exact age, or by age ranges, I honestly don't know.)

The whole idea behind scoring in this manner presumes that everyone learns more as they age. Therefore, balancing scores from 50 year old's against 20 year old's doesn't make sense. Because of the way IQ's are determined, someone with an IQ of 120 at fifty years old is presumably "smarter" than someone at 20 years old with the same IQ.

For someone with an IQ of 120 at age twenty to share the same intelligence as someone at fifty with IQ of 120 would mean that the average twenty year old shares the intelligence level of the average fifty year old.

As I said, I DO NOT know what the formulas are that are used. I only know that these are the principles behind the scoring.


To simplify if I may :

The psychologist( U.S.A.) take a random sample of subjects, lets say it is 2,330, and test "these" with questions that tap into cognitive ability .
They norm this sample by taking the mean score and the highest score. Arbitrarily, the highest score in this scenario is converted to an I.Q of 150, as the ceiling of this test , due to a 1 in 2,330 rarity or 99.9570883466 percentile . It doesn't matter how many were answered correctly , what is relevant is it was the highest number of correct answers whatever that may be. The mean score is the person exactly in the middle score range and this is assigned a score of 100 or a rarity in 1 out 2 or 50th percentile.

Let's say I come along now at the ripe old middle aged fellow that I am ,and want to know I clever or not I am , and spend $500 to be tested .
They then tally up my "correct answers" and it matches with someone who scored in the mean or center of this sample.
They then tell me you are " AVERAGE " and your I.Q. is 100.

There is not an age adjustment.

What is more , if you were to take this test to Israel ; the mean score there would correspond to someone in the 85 percentile in the U.S.
(This is something that is published in a book I own : " A question of intelligence"- and this is probably controversial , but so is this concept of intelligence testing ,as it has morphed into a juggernaut that it is).

The test would have to be re-normed again in Israel to find the mean score ,and make the new Bell Curve..


Interesting! I found the following page that probably explains why I heard what I did:

Mega Foundation link

According to them, until fifty years ago, age was factored into it. The fact that it had barely changed around my own birth probably explains why I was told that it did factor age. I can only presume that those who explained it to me were unaware that age was no longer being used.

That said, if age is no longer a factor, I would have to say that decreases in IQ can probably now be explained by an overall increase in performance on tests, regardless of age. If improved schooling is a factor, that would certainly explain it.


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