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Janissy
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27 Oct 2010, 6:35 pm

Quote:
ruveyn wrote:
[quote="b9"

apparently, australian aboriginals and american indians are genetically the least intelligent races of humans. some of the books i read that i "borrowed" from the shelf of my psychiatrist had information that would be censored in the modern world.



Really? Consider what the Cherokee accomplished. When their tribal mode was threatened by the whites they quickly adapted property ownership and the tribal chief invented an alphabet suitable for the Cherokee language.

Look at what the Aztecs and the Maya had before the Spaniards came. They developed positional notation for arithmetic hundreds of years before that came to Europe. The Aztec and the Maya used base 20 arithmetic. Apparently they also counted their toes. The astronomy of the Aztecs at the time the Cortez come to the New World was better than that of Europe.

ruveyn
[/quote]

One of those books he borrowed may have been The Bell Curve. I think that was their line. It all just goes to show the follishness of IQ tests.
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iamnotaparakeet
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27 Oct 2010, 7:09 pm

Janissy wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
b9 wrote:

apparently, australian aboriginals and american indians are genetically the least intelligent races of humans. some of the books i read that i "borrowed" from the shelf of my psychiatrist had information that would be censored in the modern world.



Really? Consider what the Cherokee accomplished. When their tribal mode was threatened by the whites they quickly adapted property ownership and the tribal chief invented an alphabet suitable for the Cherokee language.

Look at what the Aztecs and the Maya had before the Spaniards came. They developed positional notation for arithmetic hundreds of years before that came to Europe. The Aztec and the Maya used base 20 arithmetic. Apparently they also counted their toes. The astronomy of the Aztecs at the time the Cortez come to the New World was better than that of Europe.

ruveyn


One of those books he borrowed may have been The Bell Curve. I think that was their line. It all just goes to show the follishness of IQ tests.


For the fixation of the quotation Ziggurat I have thus posted this post. As per the IQ test, it is an excellent example of the glorification of puzzle solving.



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27 Oct 2010, 11:08 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Another key factor is the areas in which these people come from. They are not born with the same advantages and often become stuck.


What advantages are those? I'm white and I wasn't born into wealth and neither were most people that I've ever known born into wealth nor had advantages from birth.


this shows that the meta-issue is more about socioeconomic class, and less about race per se. people in the lower class need to band together as a united front and not be so insipidly contentious.


In what manner can a united front help? A petition for equality in welfare programs perhaps? It would certainly help with my wife and me right now.


it means voting in your OWN best economic self-interest, and not get distracted by the unholy repub trinity of mass distraction, i.e. god/guns/gays. the repubs do NOT have your own economic self-interest at heart, only their own. so if you are working-class and vote for a repub, you have only yourself to blame when you get disenfranched [have only your voting rights denied/only your taxes raised while the upper income folk continue to skate by/have only your privacy invaded by bluenose right wingers/etc.] by the newly-re-empowered repubs, i.e., you may have voted for a repub because he claims to have "the fix in" for gays/dems/women/blacks/mexicans [fill in the blanks if you have any more hates you can think of] but you have really just "cut off your nose to spite your face." IOW any working-class person who thinks a repub will actually do more than just pay lip service for working-class concerns is just whistling past the graveyard.

so when i say a united front, i mean disenthralling oneself from the ballgame on tv, getting off the couch and either going to the polling place or filling out and mailing the ballot, and not only NOT voting for anything remotely right-wing but voting ONLY for the candidate and referendum/initiative bill that will enhance your own rights and not just that of the high-and-mighty. in my lifetime i have not encountered any right-wingers ['cept for nixon, surprisingly] who supported things that would help me and my class, such as universal healthcare or healthcare reform, so that leaves only the democratic party as the only realistic choice for the party that is even remotely in line with working-class needs and interests. sure, there is the green party but a vote for them only takes away from the democrats and NOT the repubs. otherwise i'd be a green party member. i learned my lesson when i voted for john anderson and ronnie raygun got elected. i have voted solidly dem since then.

the dems are hamstrung by the bluedogs in [ironically] reddish states who basically are DINOS, so if one is disappointed in what they have been able to accomplish, one might remember that what they did get done was in the face of a buzzsaw of united DINO/rightist opposition and overwhelming calumny on the rightist's part. the lion's share of this could have been avoided if only more working-class folk could've seen past the ends of their noses and got out and supported their democrats. remember, there are more of US [workers] than of THEM [upper-classes]. if only we had some unity of class, we could get a lot of progressive things done. so i say to my fellows, start paying attention to that "man behind the curtain!"



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27 Oct 2010, 11:12 pm

AngelRho wrote:
To summarize everything I've said, I think it's because of the messages they are getting within their own culture. What I've generally observed is that those, even born to young, single parents, tend to perform better and achieve more and actually TRY to reach goals IF their mothers and grandmothers send the message throughout their lives that they actually CAN do those things. Would you agree that more blacks would be "high achievers" and escape class boundaries if more of them were getting this message as children? Or is it something else?


so you are saying something along the lines of "it DOES take a village!"



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28 Oct 2010, 9:04 am

auntblabby wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Another key factor is the areas in which these people come from. They are not born with the same advantages and often become stuck.


What advantages are those? I'm white and I wasn't born into wealth and neither were most people that I've ever known born into wealth nor had advantages from birth.


this shows that the meta-issue is more about socioeconomic class, and less about race per se. people in the lower class need to band together as a united front and not be so insipidly contentious.


In what manner can a united front help? A petition for equality in welfare programs perhaps? It would certainly help with my wife and me right now.


it means voting in your OWN best economic self-interest, and not get distracted by the unholy repub trinity of mass distraction, i.e. god/guns/gays. the repubs do NOT have your own economic self-interest at heart, only their own. so if you are working-class and vote for a repub, you have only yourself to blame when you get disenfranched [have only your voting rights denied/only your taxes raised while the upper income folk continue to skate by/have only your privacy invaded by bluenose right wingers/etc.] by the newly-re-empowered repubs, i.e., you may have voted for a repub because he claims to have "the fix in" for gays/dems/women/blacks/mexicans [fill in the blanks if you have any more hates you can think of] but you have really just "cut off your nose to spite your face." IOW any working-class person who thinks a repub will actually do more than just pay lip service for working-class concerns is just whistling past the graveyard.

so when i say a united front, i mean disenthralling oneself from the ballgame on tv, getting off the couch and either going to the polling place or filling out and mailing the ballot, and not only NOT voting for anything remotely right-wing but voting ONLY for the candidate and referendum/initiative bill that will enhance your own rights and not just that of the high-and-mighty. in my lifetime i have not encountered any right-wingers ['cept for nixon, surprisingly] who supported things that would help me and my class, such as universal healthcare or healthcare reform, so that leaves only the democratic party as the only realistic choice for the party that is even remotely in line with working-class needs and interests. sure, there is the green party but a vote for them only takes away from the democrats and NOT the repubs. otherwise i'd be a green party member. i learned my lesson when i voted for john anderson and ronnie raygun got elected. i have voted solidly dem since then.

the dems are hamstrung by the bluedogs in [ironically] reddish states who basically are DINOS, so if one is disappointed in what they have been able to accomplish, one might remember that what they did get done was in the face of a buzzsaw of united DINO/rightist opposition and overwhelming calumny on the rightist's part. the lion's share of this could have been avoided if only more working-class folk could've seen past the ends of their noses and got out and supported their democrats. remember, there are more of US [workers] than of THEM [upper-classes]. if only we had some unity of class, we could get a lot of progressive things done. so i say to my fellows, start paying attention to that "man behind the curtain!"


I second this response, for the most part. Sometimes though, you can get a democratic candidate who is just really bad. In these cases, I put intelligence and integrity and the top of my priority list. If this means a republican might be the best person for the job, I'll vote that way as long as they aren't too far right. Sometimes, I'll even find a republican candidate who actually does appear to have the working class/middle class in his/her best interests, but this is exteremly rare, and possibly just a northeast phenomenon.

I also learned my lesson about 3rd party candidates the hard way. I voted for Nader. :(



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28 Oct 2010, 9:14 am

auntblabby wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
To summarize everything I've said, I think it's because of the messages they are getting within their own culture. What I've generally observed is that those, even born to young, single parents, tend to perform better and achieve more and actually TRY to reach goals IF their mothers and grandmothers send the message throughout their lives that they actually CAN do those things. Would you agree that more blacks would be "high achievers" and escape class boundaries if more of them were getting this message as children? Or is it something else?


so you are saying something along the lines of "it DOES take a village!"


Yes it does, but we can only be responsible for our own actions. It's a cop out for an educator to blame a kid's parents for their students failures. A teacher has no control over what goes on outside of their classroom. They must aim to bring out the full potential of their students regardless of their home environment. Of course it's going to be harder to teach troubled kids, but that's what a teacher signs up for. "Yeah, but's" do these kids a great disservice.



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28 Oct 2010, 9:37 am

auntblabby wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
To summarize everything I've said, I think it's because of the messages they are getting within their own culture. What I've generally observed is that those, even born to young, single parents, tend to perform better and achieve more and actually TRY to reach goals IF their mothers and grandmothers send the message throughout their lives that they actually CAN do those things. Would you agree that more blacks would be "high achievers" and escape class boundaries if more of them were getting this message as children? Or is it something else?


so you are saying something along the lines of "it DOES take a village!"


Well, it DOES take a village, but that's not my point.

The point is that certain cultures within black society are inherently harmful.

For example, if you live in an area where gang violence and drug dealing/prostitution is rampant, what can you reasonably expect the kids to do? Gangbang, sell dope, and pimp'n'ho'. If all they hear about their whole lives is that THIS is all there is, they aren't going to really try to change. Joining a gang or hooking up with a pimp is not so much about economic gain as it is protection.

That's more of an extreme when it comes to, what I understand, about the urban condition. It's not quite that bad in the Delta, but it IS a small part of life around here.

In Greenville, you have some really quirky cultural mixing. One of the long-standing traditions here is a restaurant called "Doe's Eat Place." It's a dirty, white shack on Nelson Street. In Greenville, Nelson Street is where all the drug dealers and prostitutes hang out, so now if you're looking for a nice piece of used tail, you know where to go. Doe's is considered "upscale," and that's where you go if you want to eat the best steak, and it IS pricey. If you want something on the cheap, their hot tamale's are unparalleled. I will eat them by the dozen.

But ANYONE who has ever actually been to Doe's will tell you: Go there before sunset, and don't hang around any later than you have to after you finish your steak. It's extremely violent in that area, and Doe's is the only restaurant in town I know of with a policeman guarding the entrance.

If there IS an answer, I think it is this: White people tend to be on the move in places like Greenville because we know, perhaps subconsciously, that WE are the minority here, and we aren't exactly a welcome minority (how's that for irony?). South Greenville is very active economically, and the economic activity and services benefit all, whites and blacks alike. The thing is, we whites are NOT racists, and those few blacks who have dared to live beyond a life of black-on-white resentment have been successful in the careers to the point they are competing with other (white) middle class families in the job market. They are very smart people, and guess where they live? In predominantly white neighborhoods south of US Hwy. 82. They are our friends and neighbors, and we aren't moving out of those neighborhoods in droves because we're afraid the blacks will drive down property value. What blacks need to do is, on their own initiative, start competing for the same kinds of jobs and careers as whites are or, at the very least, integrate with white people in the nicer neighborhoods. I'm not saying they have to be rich or live in the finest houses. I'm saying they need to associate themselves with a culture that is not self-destructive and protect their kids from negative influence. And if there are black OR even white families that really care about disaffected communities, what they need to do is buy up entire city blocks, rebuild or flip properties, and make those places the kinds of inexpensive places that other positively influential people--such as artists, musicians, and so on--can move in and make those areas attractive and promote economic growth. Long-time residents in those areas will likely be heavily resistant at first, but attrition is always the friend of progressives. Sooner or later, the drug dealers and prostitutes will struggle to find and hold onto any kind of sphere of influence, but at the very least will be driven far enough underground to to really even be noticeable.

If you can isolate yourself and your children from a destructive culture, its easier to teach your children what they SHOULD be doing and how they SHOULD be thinking. If it were me in that situation, it would mean no MTV, no BET, no Cartoon Network, and no Comedy Central. I will buy you whatever CD you want to listen to, but I have to listen to it first. You will ONLY use proper grammar in my house. And you will NOT have friends unless we're already friends with their parents. Likewise with dating (people who believed in arranged marriages back in the day might have been a little twisted, but they were fundamentally on the right track). When you turn 18 and go to college and move out, what you do is your business. Just remember who owns title to the car you drive and who pays the insurance. If we're church-going people, you WILL be there every time the doors are open.

You can't make your kids perfect, but you CAN do everything you can to at least try to see that they are living above the influence of a destructive culture. Even whites experience those kinds of problems, it's not just a black thing--it just looks different because of a different culture. One good example: Emo kids. Need I say more? Blacks who live this way take a lot of heat from their own because they are "acting white." I used to teach a black kid who, one day, just shut down in his classwork participation. It turns out he was getting picked on because he went to the private school. You can't be a high-achiever in a private school without CONSTANT participation and involvement of the parents. This kid wasn't getting any kind of help, his older siblings were giving him a hard time, his mother wasn't helping him, and eventually the elementary principle called the mother in and quite plainly told her "You're wasting your money sending him here." So they shipped him back to the public school he came from where he'll probably rot (the same one where I used to work).

The solution, as I see it, is isolate yourself within a non-destructive culture in which YOU are the single determining factor in how the child thinks and acts. If you don't, your kids WILL be out of control and be no different from those around you. Stay involved. And if you can't get into those kinds of neighborhoods, surround yourself with those like you who want better and care. Raise the standards for your family and demand same from others, no matter the personal or emotional cost. One of my favorite students, a third-grader, lives within a predominantly black Delta town and is NOTHING like the surrounding culture. Why? Because her parents work so hard to keep her that way! They like the fact that I'm a tough, demanding piano teacher, AND I also tell stories about my own experiences and how she can have the same experiences I did if she wants it bad enough.

To a degree, yes, it takes a village. But more importantly is whether the village you choose to live in teaches and reinforces the same kinds of values you want to instill in your child.

I've only had to kick ONE student out of piano lessons. Only one, and this happened on the college campus where I work in the evenings. I saw the mother MAYBE twice. One time the father dropped her off and disappeared. When the mother was present, she'd constantly be getting onto her daughter about posture, and this girl was so easily distracted anyway. Posture? Of all things that's MY territory when it comes to playing piano. And there were other things the mother would do. The lady was nuts, and not very nice at all. One time they had her older sister bring her, who happened to take classes on campus anyway and did NOT look like she wanted to be there. All I ever was to these people was a baby-sitter. Sorry, but I have trouble enough baby-sitting my OWN kids, much less someone else's. And then there were the months, MONTHS that they didn't even bother to show up at all. I told my supervisor that I was sick of them and to drop them from the roll. She fired back with "She says she'll be there TONIGHT for lessons." So I said, "Let them show up. I'm going home. If we owe them money, take it out of my paycheck. I don't care anymore." That night my supervisor came to me PERSONALLY (which she never does) with a kind, matronly smile and said "You're right. The mutha is looney-tunes and the girl can't really learn anyway. You have never said anything derogatory about them, you aren't in the habit of doing so, and you never have to worry about them again." And that was that.

It's THESE kinds of people that paint the ugliest picture of the culture at large. While there is no EXCUSE or justification for racism, you can't honestly say that it isn't understandable when you get SO MUCH of this kind of attitude and behavior from a certain block of a demographic. Act with the right attitude of gentleness and kindness towards others and raise your kids to respect others in the spirit of the respect they wish to be paid in kind, and you will be an active part in the transformation of culture not built upon long-past and anachronistic resentment. In Delta communities, we see this just beginning to happen, but as of yet it is too slow to be counted as worth any real significance. Maybe one day...



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28 Oct 2010, 9:38 am

hyperlexian wrote:
b9 wrote:
apparently, australian aboriginals and american indians are genetically the least intelligent races of humans. some of the books i read that i "borrowed" from the shelf of my psychiatrist had information that would be censored in the modern world.

i read that the average IQ of an american indian was 79, and an australian aboriginal was 81.

negroes were said to have n average IQ of 94.

i do not endorse or refute what i read.

well, a lot of the IQ testing was historically very culturally biased, so it stops being a fair test of anything at all across different cultures. some of this has improved with more culturally-sensitive tests, but there is still a problem.

case in point - when i taught students on a first nations reserve (indian reservation) from 2003 to 2007, the majority of my students had never ridden on an elevator. they lived an hour's drive on a gravel road from the closest village, so the chances of them experiencing anything urban was quite remote.

the standradized tests of the day asked a math question about elevators. since these students had no experience with multifloor buildings, they had no frame of reference for the question. the students who did a lot of reading or watched a lot of popular media could reason it out, but the majority could not.

wealthier, educated, urban and suburban families with educated parents have certain advantages that are passed down to the children. a family that places a higher value on art, culture and literature (for example) will help their children to become more well-rounded and better-educated, and these students will perform better in school. the well-rounded students will also have more background knowledge to perform better on IQ tests.

yes, both white and minority families may be poor or uneducated, but if the rates of education of black (or native) parents is quite low compared to white families, then the children will often have the same disadvantages passed down. this situation is changing and it will continue to improve with intervention, but it is important to understand that the disadvantages of minorities are not caused by internal deficiencies but by external social factors.


i do agree. i know that people who have been given more mental nutrition will do better in IQ tests. i know that the brains of people who have lived in an environment where they learned nothing are not inferior to the brains of people who have been fed facts and ideas.

i would think that people who are considered genius in this society of plentiful stimulus, if they were raised by wolves in the wild, would be considered ret*d if they were found and tested.

native intelligence is something that either comes to fruition with nurture, or withers through drought and neglect.

the inherent quality of the mind of anyone is the same whether they can do calculus or whether they can not speak in any other language than growls.

if einstein was abandoned at birth and found by a group of chimps in the jungle and raised by them, then if he was discovered and examined by testers, they would believe he was feeble minded and they would have no idea what the potential of his mind could produce.

if i had never learned to speak, and never learned any facts, and if i was never given the chance to think, i would not see things the way i do, but my brain would still be exactly the same brain.

maybe i am digging myself a deeper grave here so i will stop with the analogies and say that i personally can not see any difference in the "with it-ness" of any race.

i do not know why people hate blacks. almost everyone i meet is completely wide awake and tuned in to their day.

people who hate blacks are probably very insecure, and they clutch at straws that are strewn by elitists so that they may float on the surface of their displeasure at who they believe they are.



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28 Oct 2010, 10:14 am

AngelRho wrote:
While there is no EXCUSE or justification for racism, you can't honestly say that it isn't understandable when you get SO MUCH of this kind of attitude and behavior from a certain block of a demographic.


Yes, yes you can because again, skin color has nothing to do with it. There is no negative bahavior exhibited by blacks that whites do not exhibit as well. You cannot take your personal and narrow experiences and apply them to an entire race.



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28 Oct 2010, 12:14 pm

number5 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
While there is no EXCUSE or justification for racism, you can't honestly say that it isn't understandable when you get SO MUCH of this kind of attitude and behavior from a certain block of a demographic.


Yes, yes you can because again, skin color has nothing to do with it. There is no negative bahavior exhibited by blacks that whites do not exhibit as well. You cannot take your personal and narrow experiences and apply them to an entire race.


I said nothing about skin color. No, skin color has nothing to do with it. But culture? Absolutely. If the negative behavior and attitudes are a product of destructive cultural values, then ABSOLUTELY you can say that. In this case, the culture has at its focus a predominance of a particular type of skin color.

But try working in a predominantly low-income, minority school district and get to know these kids. I tried to engage them in an activity that involved us spending class time outside. You know what they said? "I can't go outside." Why? "Because the sun is out, and it turns us black!" But you're already black! And black is beautiful, right? "We like our skin color, and we don't want to get darker."

This is more than just an excuse not to participate in class activities. That student was SERIOUS. Skin color is more than skin deep with some of these people, and if you want to be culturally sensitive and really try to relate to these people and understand them, you CANNOT ignore it. They don't ignore it, and if you hang around them long enough you'll find out there IS such a thing as being TOO black. Light skin color = beautiful. And I do happen to know that attitude is not limited to the Mississippi Delta.

Number5, what about YOUR experience? Exactly what has been your cross-cultural interaction? You act like you know so much. Racist attitudes are NEVER excusable. That much I've already said. But you CANNOT say that it's impossible to understand why people of other races have a problem with these negative cultural messages and attitudes. Do YOU live in the Mississippi Delta or a major urban center? Is gang violence and the illegal drug trade a part of your reality? It's easy to talk a good talk when you aren't surrounded on all sides by it. The people in Northern New York really impressed me because racial distinctions never even became part of the vocabulary. Sadly, the shadow of that particular sub-culture in the south will not allow itself to remain ignored. Can you really say that you honestly can't understand why destructive negative attitudes attracts the ire of people outside that culture to have negative opinions of it? And what about the fact that culture happens to have close associations with a skin color? What conclusions are we SUPPOSED to draw from that?

Maybe blacks don't act like that from where you come from. If that is so, then GREAT. But you can't tell someone that they are wrong about something they see EVERY SINGLE DAY. The problem, I think, is that you aren't affected by it. And if it doesn't affect you, then it is hypocrisy on your part to point fingers and lay blame on others for whom it is an inescapable part of life.

People are going to draw what conclusions they will based on what they see.

The cycle goes something like this: Black, single mother who experienced the civil rights era and knows racist oppression firsthand will tell her children not to trust white people. Children will not trust white people and will likely not hide their mistrust. Whites will react because someone is being rude. Rudeness in exchange for rudeness will reinforce negative attitude. Those adults will pass same attitudes to their own children. Repeat cycle, and add a dash or two of confirmation bias.

What do white people see? Rude black people, and lots of them. And until enough blacks get fed up with it and decide to break the cycle, what do you EXPECT us to think?

As to how to solve the problem, I've already written WAY too extensively about parenting and education, so you can go back and read what I have to say about that if you wish. Southern whites are the ones holding out the olive branch. And we will continue to hold out that olive branch. But we aren't going to stand still and wait until the culture in question takes it. This hostility will end when that culture decides it's time for it to end.

Incidentally, I was in a community theater production of "Playing Juliet/Casting Othello" in which the cast is evenly split along black/white racial lines. The things I've mentioned were things we actually discussed over the course of rehearsals and the performance, not to mention TV interviews. I'm not saying white people are perfect, either. I'm just saying that many of the blacks I interact with don't really understand or care how their attitudes affect the perception of those outside their culture. You can't say that it comes as any surprise that there are those of us who are offended by all the negativity we get from the other side.

Check out that play, if you can.



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31 Oct 2010, 1:16 pm

noone has realized by now? stick an american in a truly muslim country, or even a place like...hatie or something. Look, rule of thumb is, normal people are generally aggressive towards other people. Have pre disposed belief or whatever. Sometimes when i walk by teens, regardless of race i feel uncomfortable, because i remember what i was and the people i used to meet. People who would jump you or spend the next 2 minutes talking about how weird you were(im always watching shady looking characters like a paranoid, at least ill be poised to fight). Every race has its trash and sometimes certain stereotypes can be an actually be true. But we are all messed up, different and unique, with the current population and culture you are bound to get clashing. U had white supremecy groups, black supremacy groups, probably asian at somepoint who knows, radical muslim groups, isrealy radicals, gangs. Everyone gets put into one category or another, category 1 hating category 2, the fact is, people are crap. We produce humans on a conveyor belt, pumping out millions, how many do you think will be kind and really look out for others like we had to when we roamed in groups? Mass production always leads to the using up of resources, many faulties and much productivity.



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31 Oct 2010, 2:48 pm

chuninabun wrote:
noone has realized by now? stick an american in a truly muslim country, or even a place like...hatie or something. Look, rule of thumb is, normal people are generally aggressive towards other people. Have pre disposed belief or whatever. Sometimes when i walk by teens, regardless of race i feel uncomfortable, because i remember what i was and the people i used to meet. People who would jump you or spend the next 2 minutes talking about how weird you were(im always watching shady looking characters like a paranoid, at least ill be poised to fight). Every race has its trash and sometimes certain stereotypes can be an actually be true. But we are all messed up, different and unique, with the current population and culture you are bound to get clashing. U had white supremecy groups, black supremacy groups, probably asian at somepoint who knows, radical muslim groups, isrealy radicals, gangs. Everyone gets put into one category or another, category 1 hating category 2, the fact is, people are crap. We produce humans on a conveyor belt, pumping out millions, how many do you think will be kind and really look out for others like we had to when we roamed in groups? Mass production always leads to the using up of resources, many faulties and much productivity.


I completely agree. The question in the thread title "Why are black people hated?" demands an answer, though, I think. I've been around a lot of different cultures and have enjoyed getting to know people of so many different backgrounds. I suppose if, and I stress IF, I were to actively discriminate against ANYONE, I'd have to say it would be affluent Chinese families.

Here's why: I teach piano lessons, and I've found that people who take piano from me have a wide range of reasons why they want to learn from me. Whites tend to do it because their parents made THEM do it, so they do the same with their own kids. Either that, or they don't think their kids have enough to do. Adults tend to take because they quit when they were kids and want to pick it back up, or they just never had the opportunity when they were younger or regret not taking the opportunity when they had it.

My black students generally have almost identical reasons, with the added reason that some covet the "white" sophistication of classical piano skill. They aren't going to come out and SAY that, but it's written all over how the parents act. Those generally don't last very long with me. The reason they always give is that they can't afford it. And that's a big fat lie, too, because I know how these people live. They quit for the same reason a lot of people do--there are so many dues to pay before you get any real payoff with your piano playing. But seriously, if you weren't willing to WORK at it, why bother getting started in the first place? My own lifestyle isn't really that much different. We've had to cut out so many luxuries that for me, getting even ONE meal a day is considered a luxury! I need to lose the weight, anyway, but we're constantly seeking to improve ourselves and our way of life. Teaching your kids a work ethic is a GOOD thing, and "it's too hard" is no excuse. Look at how bad MY life sucks and tell me "it's hard."

But I don't really hold that against them as a culture. I just know to avoid people who come to me with all the wrong motives. I've just noticed this tendency with blacks more so than other cultures, but that's not a "racist" or "hateful" thing. My favorite students are the ones who have stuck with me the longest and believe in it. I've got a third-grader who will probably end up performing at Lincoln Center one day.

The affluent Chinese families where I live, though, are the ones I have the most trouble getting along with. The problem there is a matter of motives behind what they do, which is "to be better than white people." My response to that attitude is "if you're so much better than me, then maybe YOU need to teach your own kids piano." It wouldn't be quite so bad if the kids themselves didn't TELL me about it!! ! So this isn't some kind of "straw man" issue because I've had kids from three or four families that I worked with tell me that. Maybe I just had the bad luck of dealing with the only four Chinese mothers who act and talk that way, but it's just my human nature to tend to make assumptions when I've been burned so many times. What I'll do is refer them to more experienced piano teachers who will probably put them on a "waiting list." I'd rather do that because it has to do with my reputation. I have a particular manner with kids, not always a nice one, and the last thing I need is for some rich Chinese mom to go around telling the whole town that I don't know what I'm doing. I don't mean to brag, but I have people driving from over an hour away to take lessons from me, and all it takes is ONE person to screw that up.

So it's not about "hatred," but if I had enough students that I needed to put some on a waiting list, I probably wouldn't be so discriminate about my students. I've only run ONE off, and there were some genuine psychological issues on the part of both the mother and the child that I just wasn't prepared for. It was the kind of situation that might have had the child running around by herself on a college campus with no supervision, plus a disruptive parent in the room during lessons (I prefer parents attend, but they have to let me do my job if they are present). I very easily could have been in a situation that, through no fault of my own and reasons beyond my control, could have appeared that I was endangering the child, which in turn could have resulted in a lawsuit against me and the college.

Getting back to the issue, I have reservations against teaching Chinese students because, generally, I've known their parents to be pushy AND to express hateful attitudes towards whites in front of their kids! I really do hope it's not like that everywhere, but it does make me wonder what is going on culturally that I'm missing. I want to say that I can work with EVERYONE regardless of race and ethnicity. But if I've been shown that I cannot easily trust you based on some negative cultural attitude you have against me, then I'm going to be less willing work with you. I don't like to go where I'm not wanted.

So the question "Why are black people so hated?" is really about the reasons that SOME people actually do hate black people. I suppose I could ask a Chinese person "Why are white people so hated?" and get a unique culturally-colored response. The only people who hate blacks really are a minority of whites, so the importance of answering the question is not quite as strong now as it was 25 and 50 years ago. This is just my opinion here, but I think what will happen sooner in our lifetimes is that the importance of that answer is going to diminish with the fading of negative black attitudes towards whites and the decrease of crime prevalence among black teens and young adults.

What I see happen is this: Liberals will probably make more political gains in favor of amnesty and/or eased restrictions on immigration such that it will be easier to gain legal access to USA citizenship or, at the very least, easier movement between the US-Mexican border. With that will likely be a sharp increase in the illegal drug trade (we're already seeing this) and criminal activity with violent gangs like MS13. Forget about those nice people who pick peaches in Georgia. You'll have people asking the same question: "Why are Latino people so hated?"



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31 Oct 2010, 9:21 pm

AngelRho wrote:
number5 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
While there is no EXCUSE or justification for racism, you can't honestly say that it isn't understandable when you get SO MUCH of this kind of attitude and behavior from a certain block of a demographic.


Yes, yes you can because again, skin color has nothing to do with it. There is no negative bahavior exhibited by blacks that whites do not exhibit as well. You cannot take your personal and narrow experiences and apply them to an entire race.


I said nothing about skin color. No, skin color has nothing to do with it. But culture? Absolutely. If the negative behavior and attitudes are a product of destructive cultural values, then ABSOLUTELY you can say that. In this case, the culture has at its focus a predominance of a particular type of skin color.

But try working in a predominantly low-income, minority school district and get to know these kids. I tried to engage them in an activity that involved us spending class time outside. You know what they said? "I can't go outside." Why? "Because the sun is out, and it turns us black!" But you're already black! And black is beautiful, right? "We like our skin color, and we don't want to get darker."

This is more than just an excuse not to participate in class activities. That student was SERIOUS. Skin color is more than skin deep with some of these people, and if you want to be culturally sensitive and really try to relate to these people and understand them, you CANNOT ignore it. They don't ignore it, and if you hang around them long enough you'll find out there IS such a thing as being TOO black. Light skin color = beautiful. And I do happen to know that attitude is not limited to the Mississippi Delta.

Number5, what about YOUR experience? Exactly what has been your cross-cultural interaction? You act like you know so much. Racist attitudes are NEVER excusable. That much I've already said. But you CANNOT say that it's impossible to understand why people of other races have a problem with these negative cultural messages and attitudes. Do YOU live in the Mississippi Delta or a major urban center? Is gang violence and the illegal drug trade a part of your reality? It's easy to talk a good talk when you aren't surrounded on all sides by it. The people in Northern New York really impressed me because racial distinctions never even became part of the vocabulary. Sadly, the shadow of that particular sub-culture in the south will not allow itself to remain ignored. Can you really say that you honestly can't understand why destructive negative attitudes attracts the ire of people outside that culture to have negative opinions of it? And what about the fact that culture happens to have close associations with a skin color? What conclusions are we SUPPOSED to draw from that?

Maybe blacks don't act like that from where you come from. If that is so, then GREAT. But you can't tell someone that they are wrong about something they see EVERY SINGLE DAY. The problem, I think, is that you aren't affected by it. And if it doesn't affect you, then it is hypocrisy on your part to point fingers and lay blame on others for whom it is an inescapable part of life.

People are going to draw what conclusions they will based on what they see.

The cycle goes something like this: Black, single mother who experienced the civil rights era and knows racist oppression firsthand will tell her children not to trust white people. Children will not trust white people and will likely not hide their mistrust. Whites will react because someone is being rude. Rudeness in exchange for rudeness will reinforce negative attitude. Those adults will pass same attitudes to their own children. Repeat cycle, and add a dash or two of confirmation bias.

What do white people see? Rude black people, and lots of them. And until enough blacks get fed up with it and decide to break the cycle, what do you EXPECT us to think?

As to how to solve the problem, I've already written WAY too extensively about parenting and education, so you can go back and read what I have to say about that if you wish. Southern whites are the ones holding out the olive branch. And we will continue to hold out that olive branch. But we aren't going to stand still and wait until the culture in question takes it. This hostility will end when that culture decides it's time for it to end.

Incidentally, I was in a community theater production of "Playing Juliet/Casting Othello" in which the cast is evenly split along black/white racial lines. The things I've mentioned were things we actually discussed over the course of rehearsals and the performance, not to mention TV interviews. I'm not saying white people are perfect, either. I'm just saying that many of the blacks I interact with don't really understand or care how their attitudes affect the perception of those outside their culture. You can't say that it comes as any surprise that there are those of us who are offended by all the negativity we get from the other side.

Check out that play, if you can.


Wow, I'm genuinely amazed at your double talk. You contradict yourself in the first paragraph alone. If you think skin color truly doesn't matter, than you wouldn't go on endlessly about how it does.

As far as my background goes, yes, I have plenty of experience on the matter. I've lived in wealthy white suburbs and in urban ghettos. I've also lived out in the country. Racism exists everywhere, including northern NY. If you want to talk about rudeness, well I found the greatest concentration of rude people to be in the wealthy white suburbs. However I would easily say that my greatest learning experience came from the 3 years I spent living and working near the urban ghetto. I say near because my job was slightly removed from the ghetto, about 2 miles or so, but we still had to do our daily homeless sweep in the morning. When I came home, I lived exactly one block from the ghetto. We occasionally heard gunshots at night. Thankfully, one block in the other direction was the start of the gay neighborhood, where it tended to be a lot safer. I know, you think they're evil too, but that's another thread.

At my city job, I worked with mostly black people. This was certainly quite a change from my pasty suburban background, and my co-workers knew it. Most of them were very nice to me, but there were a few that assumed I was a racist, even though they never actually talked to me. At first this bothered me. I said similar things to what you have been saying about holding out the olive branch until my black friends helped to to better understand the situation. I couldn't possibly know what it's like to be black, and I needed to give them this. It's true, afterall. How could I have any real understanding of what it is they experience in their daily lives and in their family history. Just because some strange white girl was being nice to them didn't mean they owed me smiles and cordialness. Too many times they had some nice white girl clutch her purse a little tighter, or call for security upon suspicions of shoplifting. What appeared to be rudeness, was really just a deeply ingrained defense mechanism.

Olive branches don't work. You need to build a trust. You need to admit that you don't know everything about their situation. You need to be open to learning and stop painting an entire race with such a broad brush. Many blacks see your form of racism to be even worse than the out and open kind. At least with a self-described racist, they know where they stand. Your approach to racial difference is so passive aggresive and sneaky. "I'm not racist, but...," and then you proceed to crap on an entire race. It is because of attitudes like yours that we're not really getting anywhere with race relations in this country.



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31 Oct 2010, 9:34 pm

AngelRho wrote:
I completely agree. The question in the thread title "Why are black people hated?" demands an answer, though, I think. I've been around a lot of different cultures and have enjoyed getting to know people of so many different backgrounds. I suppose if, and I stress IF, I were to actively discriminate against ANYONE, I'd have to say it would be affluent Chinese families.

[Followed by:]

What I see happen is this: Liberals will probably make more political gains in favor of amnesty and/or eased restrictions on immigration such that it will be easier to gain legal access to USA citizenship or, at the very least, easier movement between the US-Mexican border. With that will likely be a sharp increase in the illegal drug trade (we're already seeing this) and criminal activity with violent gangs like MS13. Forget about those nice people who pick peaches in Georgia. You'll have people asking the same question: "Why are Latino people so hated?"


You know, for a Christian, you seem so full of hate. No one even asked about Chinese people or Latinos. Let's not forget your attitudes towards gays. So, I feel I must ask, where does the hate stop? Are Jews OK? How about Indians, or heck, even women?



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01 Nov 2010, 3:54 pm

number5 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
I completely agree. The question in the thread title "Why are black people hated?" demands an answer, though, I think. I've been around a lot of different cultures and have enjoyed getting to know people of so many different backgrounds. I suppose if, and I stress IF, I were to actively discriminate against ANYONE, I'd have to say it would be affluent Chinese families.

[Followed by:]

What I see happen is this: Liberals will probably make more political gains in favor of amnesty and/or eased restrictions on immigration such that it will be easier to gain legal access to USA citizenship or, at the very least, easier movement between the US-Mexican border. With that will likely be a sharp increase in the illegal drug trade (we're already seeing this) and criminal activity with violent gangs like MS13. Forget about those nice people who pick peaches in Georgia. You'll have people asking the same question: "Why are Latino people so hated?"


You know, for a Christian, you seem so full of hate. No one even asked about Chinese people or Latinos. Let's not forget your attitudes towards gays. So, I feel I must ask, where does the hate stop? Are Jews OK? How about Indians, or heck, even women?


You're confusing a criticism of certain, limited aspects of culture with hatred. I harbor no ill will towards Chinese, Latinos, Blacks, women, or even gays. I see ALL cultures as having unique problems in relating to each other. Don't think that I'm saying that whites are perfect, because that's not what I mean at all. I'm only speaking from MY perspective, which is as part of "white" culture.

The issue, as I see it, is that people will tend to associate certain issues with culture the more they are exposed to those problems. Let's say a white person not normally exposed to latino populations has the kind of experiences in which he mostly only encounters members of MS13. Whether he does the consciously or subconsciously, the human response tends to be an association with violent, criminal activity with all dark-skinned individuals who speak Spanish.

That doesn't mean that person can't educate himself or move to another area where the latino culture is not shaped by gang activity. The problem is when you have one or two groups that, for whatever reasons, are constituted by socially isolated members who only have their own perspectives of each other, gazing at each other over a wide cultural divide. You see THIS person acting THIS way, another person acting the same way, and another person acting the same way, 100 or 1000 times. We build these associations through inductive logic, and the sad fact is we're left with certain conclusions.

What I said about having to deal with Chinese parents was through my experience with 4 families, and I didn't have my mind made up about them from the start. But honestly trying and giving those people a chance resulted in me getting burned. It's difficult to come back from that with a positive attitude. Bear in mind it wasn't the kids themselves I was complaining about, but their parents. The kids were GREAT. I just noticed that the parents in question tended to keep a cold distance. When I asked one of the older kids about why their folks act so funny around me, they said, "Oh, that's just mom. She doesn't like white people." Other kids explained that they had family pressures to "be better than white people." I also found out after the fact that I lost two (younger) students because the parents had them on someone else's waiting list. It's not really my business who you take lessons from, but the least you can do is be up front and honest about it. Many of my financial decisions are contingent on how many students I can expect each week, and losing students en masse puts me in a bind. I've matured enough in my practice that I can sniff out who's going to stick with me a year or more and who'll be gone in two weeks. I wouldn't say that "hateful" is an accurate description of how I feel, but certainly "somewhat cynical" or "apprehensive."

I might also add that I don't really think it is so much a skin-color thing as it is a cultural thing. Skin color only suggests that you've been "born into" a specific cultural context. It works in a broad, general way, but it doesn't explain how it is that white people can adopt the same general "hip hop" culture normally associated with blacks. It seems to me older blacks I've worked with tend to distance themselves from that particular sub-culture. But I've also noticed a tendency with lower-income populations a diminished desire to escape the circumstances that put them there. I might have mentioned what my wife does for work. Whites and blacks are both affected by economic downturns, predatory lending, and so on. It's the black people in the area that most often file bankruptcy to escape unsecured debt. That may be due to a higher black population in the Mississippi Delta, but there is a disproportionate number of repeat filers comparing blacks to whites. I've been in financial hardship before--still am, actually. The first major change we made was close all our checking accounts, keep surpluses in savings, and deal strictly on a cash-only basis. We buy enough food for our kids to eat, be as careful as we can, and eat peanut butter sandwiches if we have to until the next pay period. We're teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, but we're working just close enough with collectors to keep them at bay. Culture at large is used to living beyond its means, and within our local black community this is extremely prevalent. The federal bankruptcy courts are just another way of extending welfare which disfavors creditors. It's SUPPOSED to protect consumers from predatory creditors. What actually happens is the system is too often abused by repeat filers who know perfectly well how to work the system. Maybe the creditors deserve what happens to them because they keep falling for the same old tricks. But at the same time one has to mark the dishonesty of those who, knowing full well every twist and turn of the process, use the system for the purpose of getting things they have no intention of working for.

In everyday kinds of circumstances, gettings things you don't pay for is considered theft.

And it's legalized theft split along ethnic, racial, or cultural lines that leads those outside the culture to conclude that "all x do this." Now, is that fair to all the well-meaning, hard-working, fiscally-responsible members of racial/ethnic strata acting contrary to stereotype? No, it isn't fair. But, in answer to the topic question, people draw their own conclusions and think what they want to think. If it's NOT true, then you'd expect more people not following a culture of poverty. But that's not what we SEE.

It's not a justification, but it is an explanation. I harbor no ill feelings towards any culture, and I'm sorry if it seems a contradiction. You're asking why it is a certain people-group are hated. Regarding blacks who don't work, have 15 babies running around one house (not making that up), perpetually on welfare, max out credit cards and cancel them out through bankruptcy, and so on, I'm not expressing a personal hatred. I'm just saying that whites who DO harbor feelings of resentment or dislike or whatever-it-is (may or may not be hateful) don't express those ideas without reason. All they have is what they see. What *I* see is a rising tide against any kind of racial misunderstanding amongst cultures. However, I also recognize that the rising tide is slow in coming. I am also honest with myself about what, if any, prejudices I hold and why I have them, and I do my best to deal objectively with all people. If you ever get to a place in which you feel trampled on by members of a particular culture or race, like my experiences with Chinese parents, you'll understand what I mean when I say it's hard to give someone a chance when that's all you've ever known. It wasn't like I just woke up one day and said, "Hey, let's avoid all Chinese people!" Perhaps that's something I'll be able to overcome, but it's still a sore topic for me. In all other circumstances, I've had no problems. I've played piano for church services in our local Chinese Mission and I get asked to play for their funeral services all the time, and I've gotten nothing but warmth and welcoming sentiment every time (considering the circumstanced, of course). I just think on other situations, like private lessons, I'm owed a little more respect than what I was shown, and I refuse to allow anyone to treat me like some underpaid household servant. You don't OWN me. And it bothers me when I'm made fun of, gossiped about, and discarded like cheap furniture, all because "mom doesn't like white people." I'd never do that to someone because it's a sh!++y thing to do, same as I give EVERYONE a chance regardless of background. The least you can do is repay me in kind for the respect I give you.

Yes, the homosexual thing is another thread. I was amused that the discussion is remarkably one-sided. Diversity of thought is a GOOD thing, and I think that particular thread could use more opposing viewpoints. It looks to me like a meeting of some mutual-admiration society, and we just can't have that. I have a difficult time defending the other side of that kind of argument, as I do in most politically-charged arguments. The racial thing is something that hits close to home for me. So actually coming FROM a predominantly white culture myself, I hear "white" attitudes all the time; however, I've also worked closely with impoverished blacks in the public school system and I've gotten an ear FULL straight from them about how they feel. I might chime in again on the gay marriage thread depending on how much free time I have.



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02 Nov 2010, 12:20 am

CockneyRebel wrote:
As a person who likes people of all races, I find myself asking the same question.


The answer lies in a tendency to xenophobia. It is very common in the human species. Fear of the Other. To a certain extent it is a survival characteristic which it still exists in what is supposed to be a rational and enlightened age. Two things that many people fear: what is Strange and Death.

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