Shyness/Introversion vs mild AS-Differences.

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lostmyself
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20 Jan 2012, 8:02 am

I agree AS diagnosis is quite complicated and most psychiatrists don't do their part and label everyone and anyone something or the other. Its quite easy to convince some psychiatrists while others won't budge.

But the attitude the author has towards social anxiety or introversion is annoying. I mean he thinks socializing is a piece of cake. He has no idea what being mute out of anxiety is like. He has no idea what actual anxiety can cause. It is not the hardest thing to go and talk to people but anxiety also causes overloads and meltdowns I believe.

Now going back to AS I think it is being differently wired in the brain that makes people feel different or think different. Anxiety is a condition anyone on or not on the spectrum can develop. For AS to be diagnosed correctly I believe it has to be a bit severe. I don't know if mild AS exists or doesn't.



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20 Jan 2012, 8:20 am

From Lorna Wing's paper on AS (which defined it as it is today), where she addresses AS in comparison to the introverted individual:

Quote:
All the features that characterise Asperger syndrome can be found in varying degrees in the normal population. People differ in their levels of skill in social interaction and in their ability to read nonverbal social cues. There is an equally wide distribution in motor skills. Many who are capable and independent as adults have special interests that they pursue with marked enthusiasm. Collecting objects such as stamps, old glass bottles, or railway engine numbers are socially accepted hobbies. Asperger (1979) pointed out that the capacity to withdraw into an inner world of one's own special interests is available in a greater or lesser measure to all human beings. He emphasised that this ability has to be present to marked extent in those who are creative artists or scientists. The difference between someone with Asperger syndrome and the normal person who has a complex inner world is that the latter does take part appropriately in two-way social interaction at times, while the former does not. Also, the normal person, however elaborate his inner world, is influenced by his social experiences, whereas the person with Asperger syndrome seems cut off from the effects of outside contacts.



hanyo
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20 Jan 2012, 8:28 am

"or experience a mild and very normal level of social awkwardness that would disappear if they stepped away from the computer for a few minutes."

That wouldn't even apply to me and a lot of older people since I had problems as long as I can remember but I didn't have any internet access until I was 23.

I was described as "shy" a lot when I was a kid. It was extreme enough that it was more than shyness. I don't know how they never diagnosed me with anything considering all the special classes and schools I was made to go to and even had to do a 30 day evaluation in a mental hospital.



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20 Jan 2012, 4:34 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
AS is more than just shyness; shyness is only half of half of the criteria (assuming that shyness can somehow be used as one of the social issues criteria).


Is it shyness though? I mean I know once someone gets me talking I am pretty open about most things and like to talk provided I am interested in the topic being discussed. Its just a matter of not knowing or being able to normally approach and interact with people. I mean I've always had an issue with walking up to someone I don't know and starting a conversation or even asking them something......its not so much social anxiety that causes this its more like I just cannot do it, it especially sucked in college and school because if i did not have a pencil and had never talked to the people sitting near me I could not even ask them for a pencil to borrow.........I think any social anxiety I have set in after being ridiculed for my awkwardness.


There is around 4 criteria for the social aspects of AS, and around two of them need to be filled. Shyness might be able to used as a criterion.


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20 Jan 2012, 8:57 pm

Dillogic wrote:
From Lorna Wing's paper on AS (which defined it as it is today), where she addresses AS in comparison to the introverted individual:

Quote:
All the features that characterise Asperger syndrome can be found in varying degrees in the normal population. People differ in their levels of skill in social interaction and in their ability to read nonverbal social cues. There is an equally wide distribution in motor skills. Many who are capable and independent as adults have special interests that they pursue with marked enthusiasm. Collecting objects such as stamps, old glass bottles, or railway engine numbers are socially accepted hobbies. Asperger (1979) pointed out that the capacity to withdraw into an inner world of one's own special interests is available in a greater or lesser measure to all human beings. He emphasised that this ability has to be present to marked extent in those who are creative artists or scientists. The difference between someone with Asperger syndrome and the normal person who has a complex inner world is that the latter does take part appropriately in two-way social interaction at times, while the former does not. Also, the normal person, however elaborate his inner world, is influenced by his social experiences, whereas the person with Asperger syndrome seems cut off from the effects of outside contacts.


Interesting, since every person here is taking part in a "two-way social interaction." What a shame Hans didn't live to see the internet.

And, if I understand the above clearly, this means if I can appropriately navigate paying for my gas at a gas station, or I talk to my mother, I don't have Asperger's? How bizarre.


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TalusJumper
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21 Jan 2012, 9:56 am

I was considered shy as a kid (many years before AS was diagnosed). But that would not explain my bouncy walking gait or my echolalia (or the other issues I suffered and still suffer with)... :roll:



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21 Jan 2012, 10:03 am

I was considered shy as a kid (many years before AS was diagnosed). But that would not explain my bouncy walking gait or my echolalia (or the other issues I suffered and still suffer with)... :roll:



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21 Jan 2012, 10:07 am

XFilesGeek,

You forgot the bit where it has "appropriately".

Lorna Wing means that the social interaction of those with AS will be one-sided and lecturing instead of the two way give and take of normal social interaction. Social reciprocation is what it's called. It says the same thing in Hans' paper too.



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21 Jan 2012, 11:59 am

Dillogic wrote:
XFilesGeek,

You forgot the bit where it has "appropriately".

Lorna Wing means that the social interaction of those with AS will be one-sided and lecturing instead of the two way give and take of normal social interaction. Social reciprocation is what it's called. It says the same thing in Hans' paper too.


No I didn't.

We're currently having a "two-sided" interaction. Do neither of us have AS now?

If no Aspie can ever engage in a two-sided social interaction, then no one on this website has AS.

I engage in plenty of two-sided social interactions.


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21 Jan 2012, 12:31 pm

It's on the internet; the internet doesn't count in this regard (one has time to think about what they're saying). Also, if you ask me about something social, rather than factual, I won't answer you. That's the core of social reciprocity, not the exchange of factual data on an interest.

Perhaps many people don't have "AS"; I wouldn't know or not unless I've spoken to their doctor.



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21 Jan 2012, 12:41 pm

Dillogic wrote:
It's on the internet; the internet doesn't count in this regard (one has time to think about what they're saying). Also, if you ask me about something social, rather than factual, I won't answer you. That's the core of social reciprocity, not the exchange of factual data on an interest.

Perhaps many people don't have "AS"; I wouldn't know or not unless I've spoken to their doctor.


Hans' paper doesn't mention whether or not the internet "counts" regarding social interaction. It also doesn't mention if whether or not it "counts" if people have time to consider what they're going to say. Therefore, it's just speculation as to whether "internet interaction" counts as "social interaction."

And social questions are usually "factual" questions. "What did you do last Friday night?" is an inquiry concerning facts.


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Last edited by XFilesGeek on 21 Jan 2012, 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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21 Jan 2012, 12:42 pm

Dillogic wrote:
It's on the internet; the internet doesn't count in this regard (one has time to think about what they're saying). Also, if you ask me about something social, rather than factual, I won't answer you. That's the core of social reciprocity, not the exchange of factual data on an interest.


I agree. I think most of my interaction on the internet is one-sided. For instance posting on a forum, I'm usually just offering information or offering my opinion. And the way I expect it to go is each person just weighs in with their thoughts on a topic without really getting personal. If a person starts replying to my posts over and over, like they are having more of a conversation with me in particular, I get really freaked out. Private messages and emails are really difficult for me, and I mostly avoid that kind of interaction.



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21 Jan 2012, 12:43 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Hans' paper doesn't mention whether or not the internet "counts" or in social interaction. It also doesn't mention if whether or not it "counts" if people have time to consider what they're going to say. Therefore, it's just speculation as to whether "internet interaction" counts as "social interaction.".


Most of my online interactions are not in real time. The only real time ones are in the mmorpg I play and I don't talk a lot there.



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21 Jan 2012, 12:46 pm

dianthus wrote:
Dillogic wrote:
It's on the internet; the internet doesn't count in this regard (one has time to think about what they're saying). Also, if you ask me about something social, rather than factual, I won't answer you. That's the core of social reciprocity, not the exchange of factual data on an interest.


I agree. I think most of my interaction on the internet is one-sided. For instance posting on a forum, I'm usually just offering information or offering my opinion. And the way I expect it to go is each person just weighs in with their thoughts on a topic without really getting personal. If a person starts replying to my posts over and over, like they are having more of a conversation with me in particular, I get really freaked out. Private messages and emails are really difficult for me, and I mostly avoid that kind of interaction.


And I've seen plenty of people here "reply" to each other in the same manner as I've observed on run-of-the-mill introvert forums.

There's plenty of "two-way social interaction" going on in this forum.

And I've noticed that no one's bothered to define what they mean by "social stuff." If merely having a two-way conversation is "social stuff," then no one on WP has AS.


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21 Jan 2012, 12:53 pm

hanyo wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Hans' paper doesn't mention whether or not the internet "counts" or in social interaction. It also doesn't mention if whether or not it "counts" if people have time to consider what they're going to say. Therefore, it's just speculation as to whether "internet interaction" counts as "social interaction.".


Most of my online interactions are not in real time. The only real time ones are in the mmorpg I play and I don't talk a lot there.


So what? Online interactions are "two-way interactions."

Hans didn't live to see the internet; therefore, we have no idea if he would consider the internet "social stuff."

Yesterday, I had several "two-way" conversations with the people I work with. It was a hard won skill, but I can do it. According to Hans, the fact that I can do it at all means I'm not AS. Oh, and Hans primarily only studied boys.

It seems like people are pushing pretty hard to define "socializing" in such a way as to prove they don't "really" socialize. Personally, I don't care. I can have "two-way" interactions with people, and I'm fairly sure I did as a child. Whether these interactions were "quality" social interactions as measured against the social skill set demonstrated by my age group is entirely subjective.


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24 Jan 2012, 2:35 pm

Well I consider myself a shy person. I come from a shy, quiet family (mostly my mum's side) and they all seem to have a meek characteristic in them which I also have. Also I can relate and make friends with shy NTs, and stay friends with them too, and I can also just pass off as a shy NT to other people.

I'm actually glad I'm a shy Aspie, because I spend more time thinking than I do talking, which gives me more time to think what to say and how to act and see if it will be the right thing or not, and it usually works. I also spend a lot of time observing and ''studying'' general NT behaviour and so I pick it up a lot quicker and easier than most Aspies do.


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