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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26033
Location: Lancashire, UK
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 Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| wefunction wrote: | | I hate these threads, too. I usually get lumped in with the anti-welfare crowd |
I get the impression from some people though that even if disabled people were all working, they'd find another excuse to have a go at them just because they're different. They're using the fact that some people scrounge disability benefit (which is difficult to do if you have a conscience and don't know the system inside out - a hell of a lot of people don't get the help they desperately need whilst scumbags get everything on a plate, for instance) to tar us all with the same brush.
I want to work; in fact, that's all I end up thinking about. It's damaging to my health as I'm sat here every day constantly trying to sift through things that would make me have a job. I suffer from low self-esteem anyway and my life seems rudderless.
I, like many other non-disabled people, feel in no-man's-land.
You have those of us that don't want to bash disabled people like a lot of nasty people, tabloid press and the Tories do, but equally don't want to be on welfare all their lives and want a job (a proper job, not a state non-job). We also don't want to be treated like a commodity by state bureaucrats, vested interests, the Labour party and socialist types who see us all as victims without a voice.
So we can't win. |
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Verdandi
Miss Kitty Fantastico
Joined: Dec 08, 2010
Posts: 10176
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| backagain wrote: | Aha! I think this is what many who feel they "deserve" to be supported by the government feel: that the jobs they CAN get, are beneath them, but they don't really have qualifications for something better.
Like all the people that submit long well written posts, well, for them there is data entry... |
I would appreciate people not using this argument. You cannot ascertain someone's ability to work on the basis of internet forum posts. Your assumption is that the ability to write well translates into the ability to be reliably at work, to reliably function at work, to reliably cope with the demands at work. Apparently, it also includes the ability to not be exhausted from coping with one's disabilities, not deal with cognitive difficulties related to autism as well as cognitive difficulties from other disabilities. The ability to get out of the house for a few hours without feeling totally bombed out with fatigue and overload for the rest of the day. You can't even tell what kind of physical difficulties people deal with. For all you know, the person who is writing such "long, well-written posts" may deal with pervasive chronic pain, and writing one of those posts may itself take more effort than you might expect.
| Quote: | I say this as someone who has worked at many many jobs that I felt were hard to keep, partly because they were mind numbingly boring, surrounded by slackers, supervised by idiots who did not even notice when a slacker would take off for hours during the middle of the day and give slacker a big raise for work I and others did, jobs where "the rules" were only for the sheep, and the alpha males could do anything they wanted etc etc etc.
I finally had to face myself, cut through the bullshit, and challenge myself to actually become officially qualified for something better through education.
We all bs ourselves, and some of it takes the form of "poor pitiful me, I am better than what they think". If so, then prove it. Do things that are hard, it is the only way to grow. |
Could you clarify where you are coming from with this? I mean, I know that some of us who say we can't work came to this conclusion from working at jobs, sometimes many jobs. I've tried four times to get an education, but that never worked out, either. With my ADHD medicated I managed two full semesters before being overwhelmed with school, instead of the one I managed the other times.
I would love nothing more than to have an education and do a job that I would love doing. I would even love to have a decently paying job. Unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to manage this, and I know this from a bit over two decades of trying.
Last edited by Verdandi on Fri May 27, 2011 4:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Verdandi
Miss Kitty Fantastico
Joined: Dec 08, 2010
Posts: 10176
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| wefunction wrote: |
I hate these threads, too. I usually get lumped in with the anti-welfare crowd because I believe people who can work should work and that their default objective should be to work, but I don't believe in "welfare queens" or any of that bigoted BS. It's in my experience that people who can't work really want to work and hate that they can't sustain themselves. |
I wish there was more voc rehab-type social support for people. Actual work on getting people who can work back into the workplace and specifically finding jobs that can accommodate their needs rather than the one-size-fits-all mentality that seems to permeate American assumptions about workers. |
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XFilesGeek
Pretentiousness personified.
Joined: Jul 25, 2010
Posts: 1791
Location: The Oort Cloud
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | It's not really irrelevant, although I acknowledge it may not be applicable to you. I only ever hear people complain about their tax dollars when those tax dollars might benefit people who have difficulty functioning in society and who get assistance so they can meet their basic needs. I hardly ever hear complaints about tax dollars in reference to military/defense spending. Admittedly, it is not on topic for this thread, but I'd like to hear it simply anywhere.
I do understand what you are saying about taxation, funding, and funding cuts, and I agree (except for the part where I do not work and do not currently pay taxes). |
My personal favorite is when people who complain about welfare have no problem taking my tax dollars to pay for their college degrees. What are government grants and loans if not "education welfare?"
I have to work 12-hour days, in all kinds of weather, with cancer-causing agents to get money for my college education. I don't have a lot of respect for the anti-welfare types who suck up my tax dollars to pay for yet more useless liberal arts degrees and then spend the rest of their lives bemoaning "socialism."
As for disability benefits in the U.S., my understanding is you usually need medical documentation going back for at least a year to "prove" your disability. If you are too poor for medical care, or you couldn't keep a job because of your disability, then you're up sh!t creek. 
_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced." |
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Seph
Velociraptor
Joined: May 25, 2011
Posts: 406
Location: In a space station in orbit around Saturn
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| XFilesGeek wrote: |
As for disability benefits in the U.S., my understanding is you usually need medical documentation going back for at least a year to "prove" your disability. If you are too poor for medical care, or you couldn't keep a job because of your disability, then you're up sh!t creek. |
They prefer it if you have that kind of documentation but if your medical records don't show you have the problems you're claiming they'll send you to someone to assess you. My medical records actually were horrendous and they had to send me to someone. Now the person they sent me to was the worst possible person *ever*. I got the feeling he saw a lot of fraudulant claims and was a little... oh what's the word? ...misanthropy ... I'm using it wrong... Anyways... It's really difficult to go this route but not impossible. |
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Verdandi
Miss Kitty Fantastico
Joined: Dec 08, 2010
Posts: 10176
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Seph wrote: | | XFilesGeek wrote: |
As for disability benefits in the U.S., my understanding is you usually need medical documentation going back for at least a year to "prove" your disability. If you are too poor for medical care, or you couldn't keep a job because of your disability, then you're up sh!t creek. |
They prefer it if you have that kind of documentation but if your medical records don't show you have the problems you're claiming they'll send you to someone to assess you. My medical records actually were horrendous and they had to send me to someone. Now the person they sent me to was the worst possible person *ever*. I got the feeling he saw a lot of fraudulant claims and was a little... oh what's the word? ...misanthropy ... I'm using it wrong... Anyways... It's really difficult to go this route but not impossible. |
I've gone something like this route. I didn't have to go to one of their people because the state had me assessed and they used that.
Some kinds of things also count, like work history. |
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wefunction
Christian Soccer Mom
Joined: Jan 05, 2011
Age: 36
Posts: 2486
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| XFilesGeek wrote: |
My personal favorite is when people who complain about welfare have no problem taking my tax dollars to pay for their college degrees. What are government grants and loans if not "education welfare?"
I have to work 12-hour days, in all kinds of weather, with cancer-causing agents to get money for my college education. I don't have a lot of respect for the anti-welfare types who suck up my tax dollars to pay for yet more useless liberal arts degrees and then spend the rest of their lives bemoaning "socialism." |
There's a lot of ignorance with what the federal and state governments in the United States are and aren't required to provide their people. Unfortunately, it's an ignorance that's as old as our country and has been perpetuated by politicians, especially in campaigns, almost as long. In this day and age, where we have more educated people and venues to spread the information far and wide, I have limited sympathy for those who remain ignorant. And bravo for working so hard for your education! You are really awesome! |
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Lene
born to lurk
Joined: Nov 28, 2007
Posts: 3543
Location: East China Sea
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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I think I side with wefunction and Backagain on this thread (not there are 'sides'- just their viewpoint seems the most reasonable to me.
I'm not trying to start anything here, but can I ask why shouldn't people be expected to be grateful to those that feed and clothe them? They are doing you a service after all (albeit grudgingly in many cases- I wonder if it's a vicious cycle? grudge begets ingratefulness begets grudge?). The 'the government gives me the money' argument doesn't really make sense; there wouldn't be any money if people with jobs weren't paying for it.
As I said, not trying to criticise anyone on disability or make them feel bad; I just want to know more about where some this attitude comes from? Not everyone has it, but I've run into more than a few who do.
Last edited by Lene on Fri May 27, 2011 6:26 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Lene
born to lurk
Joined: Nov 28, 2007
Posts: 3543
Location: East China Sea
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Verdandi wrote: | | Lene wrote: | | I think I side with wefunction and Backagain on this thread (not there are 'sides'- just their viewpoint seems the most reasonable to me) |
Their perspectives seem a bit different to me, as wefunction isn't determining that people can work based on their forum activity. |
True  But both seem to be the lone voices that aren't automatically saying how awful it is that not everyone who feels they ought to get welfare gets it (unless I've misread a lot of posts- not ruling that out)
Edited my above post (bad habit I know). Just want to say again that I'm not havign a go at anyone; it's an attitude I genuinley want to understand. |
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Verdandi
Miss Kitty Fantastico
Joined: Dec 08, 2010
Posts: 10176
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Lene wrote: | | Verdandi wrote: | | Lene wrote: | | I think I side with wefunction and Backagain on this thread (not there are 'sides'- just their viewpoint seems the most reasonable to me) |
Their perspectives seem a bit different to me, as wefunction isn't determining that people can work based on their forum activity. |
True But both seem to be the lone voices that aren't automatically saying how awful it is that not everyone who feels they ought to get welfare gets it (unless I've misread a lot of posts- not ruling that out)
Edited my above post (bad habit I know). Just want to say again that I'm not havign a go at anyone; it's an attitude I genuinley want to understand. |
I didn't think you were having a go at anyone.
I deleted my post because I realized I didn't really want to start this conversation. Clearly I was too slow.
To elaborate: My position has never been that everyone who wants welfare should get it. I have mostly argued against people who seem to believe that they can determine that someone is able to work from what they see them post or even sometimes because because a person can work, they think everyone else should be able to as well.
I do think it's awful that people who need assistance often can't get it, however. My definition of need may differ from others, however, as I tend to think that one's disability eligibility should be determined by more than than the narrow slice of life people show on an internet forum.
Backagain said that people who compose long, well-written posts are obviously able to do data entry. Given that I compose long, well-written posts, I do not think that Backagain is in a position to judge how employable I am (for example) on the basis of how I spend my spare time. Nor is she in a position to determine that whether or not anyone has tried hard enough to work productively or get an education before applying for disability. Or whether anyone could possibly have tried to get work or an education before applying for disability (some can't, hence their application). Or whether disability benefits might provide enough breathing room to get that education (I know of at least one woman on this forum who was doing that).
I actually agree with wefunction (but misread her at first), but I don't agree with Backagain. I wouldn't ever make that argument on a forum like this, however, because it is impossible to determine whether anyone really can work, whether they should be working if they are working, etc. and unemployment is ridiculously high for autistic people, which reflects numerous problems with the system. I have had far too many people over the past 10 months try to tell me they could obviously tell I was employable despite my own empirical experience otherwise. I don't see the point of putting other people on the defensive about that. |
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Lene
born to lurk
Joined: Nov 28, 2007
Posts: 3543
Location: East China Sea
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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Oops, sorry! Thanks for the reply Verdandi- I appreciate your taking the time to clarify things! I won't drag you down into any debates- I do see your point.
| Quote: | | To elaborate: My position has never been that everyone who wants welfare should get it. I have mostly argued against people who seem to believe that they can determine that someone is able to work from what they see them post or even sometimes because because a person can work, they think everyone else should be able to as well. |
I didn't see that as the main point Backagain was making, but I agree it is difficult to extrapolate 'can work in data entry' from 'can post on facebook' without knowing someone better; the two things involve different skills apart from simply having functioning fingers.
I have seen other situations where reasonable conclusions can be made ( but quite often the 'career' welfare people know these pitfalls already and are ready with the pat answers/act anyway) I don't know of a solution, but it's definitely a problem where resources are allocated by someone with little medical knowledge and a checklist...
Anyway, won't get bogged into this thanks again for the reply. |
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wefunction
Christian Soccer Mom
Joined: Jan 05, 2011
Age: 36
Posts: 2486
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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I think we can all agree that the real problem here is the weasel:
BAD weasel! |
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Lene
born to lurk
Joined: Nov 28, 2007
Posts: 3543
Location: East China Sea
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| wefunction wrote: | I think we can all agree that the real problem here is the weasel:
BAD weasel! |
 that went right over my head... is it an American thing? |
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Verdandi
Miss Kitty Fantastico
Joined: Dec 08, 2010
Posts: 10176
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Lene wrote: |
I didn't see that as the main point Backagain was making, but I agree it is difficult to extrapolate 'can work in data entry' from 'can post on facebook' without knowing someone better; the two things involve different skills apart from simply having functioning fingers. |
I didn't think that was her main point, it just bothered me that she threw that in there.
| Quote: | I have seen other situations where reasonable conclusions can be made ( but quite often the 'career' welfare people know these pitfalls already and are ready with the pat answers/act anyway) I don't know of a solution, but it's definitely a problem where resources are allocated by someone with little medical knowledge and a checklist...
Anyway, won't get bogged into this thanks again for the reply. |
You're welcome.
I don't think actual fraud is widespread. It happens, but it's difficult to get help if you legitimately need it. |
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Dark_Lord_2008
Deinonychus
Joined: May 03, 2011
Posts: 348
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| How dare anyone discriminate against Aspergers? They need to be put down like the dogs they are for their cowardice. |
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