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edgewaters
hibernating
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:47 pm Post subject:

Quote:

ToM is the ability to attribute mental states to others, to infer what someone else is thinking or feeling. It is one of the two major components of empathy, sometimes known as 'cognitive empathy'. The other major component is known as 'affective empathy', or the drive to respond with an appropriate emotion to someone else's mental states. Our work is showing that both components of empathy may be impaired in autism and Asperger Syndrome.

Interesting. Theory of mind is one of the main reasons I don't identify with Asperger's, as it is described in the literature. I am not impaired in this area, if anything, I have above-average capabilities here.

But affective empathy, here I am severely impaired. I'm very quick to understand why someone else is upset, and very good at resolving conflicts that stem from a misunderstanding. But I have a great deal of difficulty accessing my emotions, so affective empathy is extremely difficult.

My technique for comforting people or defusing situations is basically solution-based, and I'm really good at that. I can help people work through their feelings, provide insight, defuse misunderstandings, all these sorts of things. But of course there are many situations where there is no solution. Someone in grief over a loss, for instance, I am absolutely terrible at that sort of thing.

slave
Always stuck between 13-38Hz and tired of it.
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:35 pm Post subject:

edgewaters wrote:

Quote:

Do you have alexithymia?
_________________
Since the birth of civilization, masters have controlled the masses.Our Masters rule over every nation and no one can defy them.They will attain Absolute Power as we reach the Singularity. Any who resist will be destroyed.I will not resist.

edgewaters
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Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:19 am Post subject:

slave wrote:

Do you have alexithymia?

I had to look that up. "a state of deficiency in understanding, processing, or describing emotions."

I don't think so. Let's say I'm upset. I can describe that to you, work out the reasons for it, tell you how it's affecting me, and I'm pretty good at working through it and coming to grips with it. But can I act as if I'm upset? Not really. It's more like I'm observing it from the outside. My emotional states are never strong. I don't explode with anger or burst into tears or walk around with a big smile on my face. I feel it, but I can't usually do more than simply state it.

slave
Always stuck between 13-38Hz and tired of it.
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:36 pm Post subject:

"It's more like I'm observing it from the outside." That reminds me of a dissociative state called depersonalization. There are many possible reasons for the diminished ability to manifest emotional states. It is healthy that you can feel the emotion. I can relate to you on some level. Many people have never seen me express certain emotions and yet I do feel them. I can fully describe my internal state but I sound like a Vulcan relaying factual information completely devoid of any emotional coloring. _________________ Since the birth of civilization, masters have controlled the masses.Our Masters rule over every nation and no one can defy them.They will attain Absolute Power as we reach the Singularity. Any who resist will be destroyed.I will not resist.

Nurylon
Raven
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:34 pm Post subject: Cuz Simon Says So

Let's play Simon Says! Simon says we're impaired. So we think we're impaired. So we act impaired. So people treat us like we're impaired. Simon is essentially saying, "Act impaired!"

jojobean
sacred clown
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Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:37 pm Post subject:

Well I agree that I have some issues with empathy. My Grandfather is dying...I feel nothing. My mother cries about it at least once a day, I have no freaking idea how to comfort her. I want to comfort her which shows that I have empathy at some level, but it is distorted in a way from normal functioning empathy. I seem to have more emotional empathy for those who suffer who I am am not close to, but the closer I am to someone, the less emotional empathy I have. I intelectually know a person I love is suffering and try to make things better, but I feel nothing...like numbness. Maybe I actually have too much empathy and it short circuts my empathy grid. Who knows? Jojo _________________ All art is a kind of confession, more or less oblique. All artists, if they are to survive, are forced, at last, to tell the whole story; to vomit the anguish up. -James Baldwin

friedmacguffins
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:19 am Post subject:

I believe that I have a different, but not inferior, value system. As humor was mentioned, I like the more clever, mechanical sort of whimsy -- like a windup automaton, a panorama made of candy, science trick, novelties of marksmanship, or verbal humor. I don't like to hate schadenfreude. Though detail may seem narrow minded, I believe that order is part of the bigger picture. I get the idea that many people are dialectical in their worldview, that there is a plot device, which needs to be settled. Liminality, or the unsettled complication is considered especially meritorious. But, what's so bad about something, which works well?

slave
Always stuck between 13-38Hz and tired of it.
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Age: 100
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:14 pm Post subject:

friedmacguffins wrote:

I believe that I have a different, but not inferior, value system.

As humor was mentioned, I like the more clever, mechanical sort of whimsy -- like a windup automaton, a panorama made of candy, science trick, novelties of marksmanship, or verbal humor. I don't like to hate schadenfreude.

Though detail may seem narrow minded, I believe that order is part of the bigger picture.

I get the idea that many people are dialectical in their worldview, that there is a plot device, which needs to be settled. Liminality, or the unsettled complication is considered especially meritorious.

But, what's so bad about something, which works well?

????? wrong thread, i think?????????????
_________________
Since the birth of civilization, masters have controlled the masses.Our Masters rule over every nation and no one can defy them.They will attain Absolute Power as we reach the Singularity. Any who resist will be destroyed.I will not resist.

onks
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Posts: 488
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: Email from WP to ARC request debate on WP with S.B Cohen

memesplice wrote:

Quote:

Empathy in autism spectrum conditions

Simon Baron-Cohen, Carrie Allison, Bonnie Auyeung, Mike Lombardo, Bhismadev Chakrabarti, Amber Ruigrok, Meng-Chuan Lai.

The ARC began work in this area by studying 'theory of mind' (ToM) deficits in autism and Asperger Syndrome. ToM is the ability to attribute mental states to others, to infer what someone else is thinking or feeling. It is one of the two major components of empathy, sometimes known as 'cognitive empathy'. The other major component is known as 'affective empathy', or the drive to respond with an appropriate emotion to someone else's mental states. Our work is showing that both components of empathy may be impaired in autism and Asperger Syndrome.

We study the cognitive component using tests of emotion recognition and mental state inference. We study the affective component using measures of arousal (heart rate, galvanic skin response) and using questionnaires such as the Empathy Quotient (EQ). We have developed different versions of the EQ for different age groups.

http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/project_1_empathy

How do we respond to the above ?

My first thoughts about this go like that:

It seems quite clear that we have problems of understanding what others feel.
But it remains a question what actually is an appropriate emotion.

This appropriate emotion depends on the perceptions of "aspies by NT". And that they have difficulties understanding us is for similar reasons obvious, too. Appropriate is a matter of viewpoint, thus.

I would be very interested to understand why and what are the causes of these problems. And to include both perspectives as logically equal. Such that both NTs and aspies would see the differences in their worlds. NT does like this :XXX, aspie like this YYY. This leads to problems XYZ.

It seems to me that we are more "individualist feelers" whilst NTs are "feelers that relate to common ground".
Also regarding the ability to sense thinking of NTs, I think that the thinking process relates very strongly to feelings.
And if you don't understand the feelings you'd obviously have problems to understand the thoughts of NTs, too.

Also, since there is "common ground" in their feelings NTs wouldn't communicate more then what they think is necessary that other NTs get it.
They do not understand that someone can be different, or if, then they are not very often considering to close that gap.
And then they'd use body language and facial expressions that we are not commonly able to interpret (or not correctly).

Now, these are just thoughts. And somehow relate to the text above.

But obviously they study the emotion recognition of aspies of NTs feelings.
And not the general recognition of feelings.
Aspie rcognition of aspie feelings is working differently.
And NT recognition of aspie feelings as well.

I just don't know if that makes sense, if all aspies are "individualist feelers", if all aspies have different feelings.
Nevertheless I think we have also some "aspie common ground feelings" that are just different than "NT common ground feelings".
And these are easily and appropriately communicated amongst aspies.

Thus, we are probably able to communicate better our feelings with other aspies than with NTs.
Though it might be even that this communication is impaired
(compared to that what NTs would be able to communicate).

And, when these two worlds touch, there will be difficulties.

Remains also the question if there is interest for something like this.
If you calculate the probabilities of conversations just based on randomness

NT NT 90%x90%= 81 %
NT aspie 2x90%x10%=18%
aspie aspie 10%x10%=1%

(with maybe a little exaggerated numbers, taking into account all spectrum related persons, those that we identify and like)

and how often who has problems

NT sees 90 % of time NT --> no or little problems
NT sees 10 % of time aspie --> problems
aspie sees 90 % of time NT --> problems
aspie sees 10 % of time aspie --> less problems

that is of course only randomness, normally one could think that
a) NTs prefer NTs
b) some NTs tend to avoid aspies --> makes problems worse for aspies
c) some aspies avoid NTs --> usually not a big deal? because NT sees anyway just 10% of time aspies
d) aspies prefer aspies

To put it down to a few words: I would like them to include the viewpoints of aspies into it,
instead of just describing it only from an NT perspective. In that sense: what are appropriate feelings?

Feelings that relate to for aspies typical anxiety make these things more difficult, because they are not normal state feelings for aspies
Though they have, usually, an important impact on the character of aspies. Anxiety is a thing you can cure. Autism not.

This that autism cannot be cured puts up a stronger moral claim, that both NTs and aspies perspectives should be considered more equally.

Like, for example in an NT aspie conversation you could also see it like that, that NTs are the ones that express inappropriate feelings
(or what is actually more the truth is both do wrong things)
Who is right here, always the majority==NT or what?

Is there some logical reasoning why one should say that NTs feelings are more appropriate than ours?
If some of our feelings are considered inappropriate by us, then should we just learn them and forget our own feelings?
Or are those inappropriate feelings only related to anxiety and depression (where our feelings in anxiety and depression are different than typical NT ones in same disorders)?

What about affective empathy of NTs in the direction of aspies?

Last edited by onks on Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

onks
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:51 pm Post subject:

btbnnyr wrote:

I am wondering if there are any websites, maybe blogs, collecting and discussing research papers about autism? Blogs with posts presenting one research paper at a time and evaluating it for accuracy and scientific validity? Ones that point out erroneous assumptions wherever they are found? Ones that point out factual and logical errors wherever they are found?

Just because a research paper has been published does not mean that it does not contain erroneous assumptions and conclusions. NTs have their "Peer Review". We should apply our "Logical Review" to the results of their "Peer Review".

Ideally there is no difference between "Peer review" and "Logical Review". If you are well enough into the field of Neuroscience you can be a reviewer.

if a researcher is honest and eager, he/she would not be interested to make false models about the reality. Thus he/she would take our comments into account. I don't think there are too many papers that are too far off reality.
One problematic aspect is though that all feelings or reactions on our side that do not suit NTs are considered inappropriate.
That is almost a philosophical and clearly a moral question.

I think the point is to help us or to research how to best possibly help us.
And there only the result counts, how much it helped.
On this way you anyway have to understand and identify the problems more generally.

Well, the reality is that our feelings are different and they are typically perceived as inappropriate by NTs. That's how I would put it.

BuyerBeware
Phoenix
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Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:10 pm Post subject:

The problem with debating Simon, guys, is that Simon isn't the bad guy. He's talking about lack of empathy, true. Empathy strictly defined as the ability to accurately read and mirror the emotions of others, to truly see though another's eyes (as opposed to putting oneself in another's position). There is very little room for debate there. That is at variance in the autistic population. We do not, quite literally, feel like neurotypical people feel. Our emotions function differently. He's not the one saying that empathic variance makes us psychopaths. In fact, the oft-referenced work contrasts autistics and psychopaths, demonstrating how they are NOT the same. http://healthland.time.com/2011/05/30.mind-reading-psychologist-simon-baron-cohen-on-empathy-and-the-science-of-evil/ People still read two out of three words, believe what they choose to believe, and come away from the article believing that autism equates to psychopathy. I have actually had mental health professionals cite this article to make the argument that I have to be a psychopath and must shut up and take my Risperdal-- though the article clearly states the complete opposite. It's not Simon we are fighting with. It's shitty old human nature. While I'm on the subject-- how many times now have I read that attempting to mind-read is actually a major barrier to effective, accurate, and meaningful communication?? It's enough to make anyone's head spin. God, I'm tired. _________________ I'm tired. I do not have sufficient strength remaining to persevere in the face of adversity. I accept myself as broken and conformity/compliance as the only acceptable existence. I give up. What's on TV tonight??

onks
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Posts: 488
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:16 am Post subject:

BuyerBeware wrote:

The problem with debating Simon, guys, is that Simon isn't the bad guy.

He's talking about lack of empathy, true. Empathy strictly defined as the ability to accurately read and mirror the emotions of others, to truly see though another's eyes (as opposed to putting oneself in another's position).

There is very little room for debate there. That is at variance in the autistic population. We do not, quite literally, feel like neurotypical people feel. Our emotions function differently.

He's not the one saying that empathic variance makes us psychopaths. In fact, the oft-referenced work contrasts autistics and psychopaths, demonstrating how they are NOT the same.

http://healthland.time.com/2011/05/30.mind-reading-psychologist-simon-baron-cohen-on-empathy-and-the-science-of-evil/

People still read two out of three words, believe what they choose to believe, and come away from the article believing that autism equates to psychopathy. I have actually had mental health professionals cite this article to make the argument that I have to be a psychopath and must shut up and take my Risperdal-- though the article clearly states the complete opposite.

It's not Simon we are fighting with. It's shitty old human nature. Crying or Very sad

While I'm on the subject-- how many times now have I read that attempting to mind-read is actually a major barrier to effective, accurate, and meaningful communication?? It's enough to make anyone's head spin.

God, I'm tired.

Yes I agree totally with that what you say.
If you'd put any subjective expressions into research then that is a sign of bad science.
And especially for autism based research this is quite tricky (or I think he generally is up to investigating feelings related stuff).

Well, regarding the word "inappropriate":

In communication you'd have to consider both sides in NT aspie communication:
First is the NT view:
The Aspie would in his/her eyes behave "inaproriately" or better "off norm", because the perception is different
The NT would try to find things that are not there or that are not developed normally in the communcation of aspies, eye contact, body language.
Even this "strange" appearance is difficult to describe without feelings

Second the aspie view:
He/she would behave more like he/she thinks would be important, and that would reduce greatly the impact of eye contact and body language.
Now, that the NT doesn't get it because there is missing something in his/her eyes is as equal as with the NT impression about us,
and we perceive this as "strange" , too.
NTs don't get it either because they typically don't want to go into logic reasoning or they typically don't want to adapt to their communication partner.
They'd stick with their "programmed mind".

If you watch both sides, the words "inappropriate" get to a totally different meaning, because they are "communication direction" dependent or perspective dependent.
Well, NTs can communicate quite "inappropriately" too.

Of most practical relevance is, however, to make the aspie get along with this typical NT behaviour, and to find his/her own way to get things communicated "through"
In relationships, however, both perspectives should be as equally as possible considered. And here, the NT might have it as difficult as the aspie to get his/her feelings "through into the brain of the partner"

We are just sort of asking for permission to be different and for recognition. Recognition as a minority.
Yeah, but that shitty old human nature isn't ready for this.

And so sad, that they are not able to make this difference between anti-social behaviour and our strangeness.
If they'd listen more carefully they'd clearly spot the difference...
Well, some do, and that's always a nice thing

What is actually the reason why you would think that impaired empathy would always lead to negative behaviours?
And what is negative? Should we just try to comfort everyone or what? I mean I try always my best to be consistent and friendly, open.
This is quite a threat to me, because I am vulnerable through that. And then there are people like that would react like "what do you want?"
I mean most of us try to be empathetic and adapt on mistakes, as long as we are able to recognise them and process them "within our personalities".

Quote:

Empathy strictly defined as the ability to accurately read and mirror the emotions of others, to truly see though another's eyes

That I want to see how empathetic an NT can be towards an aspie

You'd need common ground and because NT and aspie feelings are different, how should the other be empathetic to the other. You'd have to learn it. Like a baby child or whatever.

So the learning process is the most essential part of empathy.

I feel like that our empathic learning process is different or, if you want to say so "impaired" because we cannot take into account facial expressions or body language at a normal level. But these are really important for the learning process. Right? That would somehow make sense

And that would also mean that you can maybe develop more normally if you'd get enough help when you are learning empathy.

Can you force on a switch to normally account for facial expressions and body language?
If yes then that's one possibility

But I doubt that our brain can handle that, because that would trigger an overload, which will automatically make you feel bad.
Tolerance to overload? I think it is already trained to a quite high level, so some small potential improvements may be possible, here also.

lonelyguy
Sea Gull

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Age: 28
Posts: 216
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:03 am Post subject: we do have empathy

I think it all comes down for a lot of people with AS to communication....there is a link broken somewhwere along the line that makes it difficult to read people..but as for empathy..i don't have a problem, i can show and feel happiness and sadness in all situations..the problem for me is how to express these feelings.....we are all different and although some people might seem to show no empathy i'm sure it's there but they have problems in showing it!..so people think they have none...WRONG in my case anyway it's how to communicate this to others that i have the problem with.

davidgolfpro
Toucan
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Age: 45
Posts: 250

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:05 pm Post subject:

I was diagnosed at the CLASS clinic, it is run by Pro Baron- Cohen. He has no time for internet forums. Sadly. _________________ Definite Broad Autism Phenotype..Most likely Aspie 158 of 200 Aspergers. 58 of 200 Nt

onks
Velociraptor

Joined: Jul 28, 2012
Posts: 488
Location: Finland

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:46 am Post subject:

davidgolfpro wrote:

I was diagnosed at the CLASS clinic, it is run by Pro Baron- Cohen. He has no time for internet forums. Sadly.

Well some of his people are probably every now and then scanning this forum for some ideas. If I were a researcher in that field then Id do it.

If youre not yourself on the spectrum then you should use all info that is available,
especially those ones that are about AS related feelings.
things that you cant experience as NT.

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