Dox47
Consigliere
Joined: Jan 29, 2008
Posts: 5192
Location: Seattle Area
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 Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| donnie_darko wrote: | | But wouldn't you still be off the hook with Castle Doctrine if you chose to do that? Look, I find it as lame as anyone when criminals sue their victims, but I don't think the way to prevent that is to allow victims to murder the criminals, especially if they're mere property crimes. |
Someone in your home is *not* a mere property crime, it's an invasion of the one place you're supposed to be completely secure, and you have no way of knowing the intentions of someone who chooses to violate that. Home invasions routinely end in violence, rape and murder, and it's immanently reasonable to allow people wide latitude in defending their homes against those possibilities. It's also a self selecting system, if you don't want to get shot then don't break into people's homes, pretty simple.
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AceOfSpades
Deeds not words
Joined: Feb 12, 2006
Posts: 3647
Location: Sean Penn, Cambodia
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Dox47 wrote: | | donnie_darko wrote: | | But wouldn't you still be off the hook with Castle Doctrine if you chose to do that? Look, I find it as lame as anyone when criminals sue their victims, but I don't think the way to prevent that is to allow victims to murder the criminals, especially if they're mere property crimes. |
Someone in your home is *not* a mere property crime, it's an invasion of the one place you're supposed to be completely secure, and you have no way of knowing the intentions of someone who chooses to violate that. Home invasions routinely end in violence, rape and murder, and it's immanently reasonable to allow people wide latitude in defending their homes against those possibilities. It's also a self selecting system, if you don't want to get shot then don't break into people's homes, pretty simple. |
Exactly. A home invasion is not like being robbed in the wrong part of town since your privacy is also at stake. The crook can use that breach of privacy against you. Even if the crook messes up on the first home invasion and ends up bailing out, he can pay you a visit the next time along with his buddies. Also if a crook breaks into a house knowing people are in it, he has mentally prepared himself for the situation so not only does he have the element of surprise but he has also had time to assess the situation while you are scared shitless and trying to make sense out of the chaos. I don't think you're really grasping how serious a home invasion really is. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12775
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Dox47 wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | Actually, the right to bear arms, according to the constitution, is in regard to a well regulated militia. That doesn't include paranoid crackers and hay seeds forming so called militias in order to protect themselves from the American federal government, that you'll find playing weekend warrior out in the woods these days.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Wrong, wrong and wrong. The operative phrase in the amendment is "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", the militia part is just a preamble establishing a reason for the right. The Supreme Court now recognizes that this is the proper interpretation, and if you read the constitution, all other references to "the people" mean just that, regular citizens. Note that in our shared home state, over 275,000 of our fellow Washingtonians have chosen to acquire concealed pistol licenses, and gun ownership in general is very common here. Are we "crackers and hayseeds"? |
Absolutely not. Again, I was referring to insane idiots who think they have to arm themselves for defense against the government (read: overthrow), and who sit around masturbating to Glenn Beck and Alex Wood. Y'know - militia groups.
I personally have no problem with responsible people arming themselves either for personal defense, and/or target practice.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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Raptor
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 09, 2007
Posts: 4505
Location: Southeast U.S.A.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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Kraichgauer wrote”
| Quote: | Absolutely not. Again, I was referring to insane idiots who think they have to arm themselves for defense against the government (read: overthrow), and who sit around masturbating to Glenn Beck and Alex Wood. Y'know - militia groups.
I personally have no problem with responsible people arming themselves either for personal defense, and/or target practice. |
The bulk of the militia movement passed in the 90’s so I think you’re grasping at straws. Either way maybe you need to read up some on American history of the 18th century, the American Revolution, and the constitution.
donnie_darko wrote:
I don’t know where to even start with you but here’s a few…….
| Quote: | | If someone broke into my house, I would defend myself, but I don't need to resort to a gun. I'm not going to respond with disproportionate force, that's just abhorrent to me. |
How exactly do you determine what level of force the individual breaking into you house is capable and willing use against you??
Well, in short it’s not a guessing game it’s a matter of decisive action.
| Quote: | | ….it was written 230 years ago by slave-owning men. |
Those men, slaveholders and otherwise, were a helluva lot wiser than one particular person on this forum that loves to start clueless poles, ask clueless questions, and post clueless replies.
I’m not mentioning any names, though………..
| Quote: | | I mean like most American juries would probably think it was justifiable homicide if say, a 17 year old kid went into a man's house to steal a beer, ran out with the beer once caught, to the door, and the guy shot him to death to punish him. |
Well if like you break into someone’s house to like steal a beer then you like deserve the Darwin award and like a .45 slug in the head to like go with it.......duh.
| Quote: | | The Castle Doctrine is monstrous. It gives people the right to punish others by death merely for trespassing. |
We’re talking breaking and entering someones home, not cutting across their yard.
BIG difference morally and legally in use of deadly force.
| Quote: | | ....but I don't think the way to prevent that is to allow victims to murder the criminals, especially if they're mere property crimes. |
Please look up the definition for “murder” before you use it again.
Same for the "castle doctrine". |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12775
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:04 am Post subject: |
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The Justice Department in fact has verified that there are still active militias; inspired by their paranoid fear and hatred of a black president trying to bring health care to all citizens.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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Raptor
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 09, 2007
Posts: 4505
Location: Southeast U.S.A.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | The Justice Department in fact has verified that there are still active militias; inspired by their paranoid fear and hatred of a black president trying to bring health care to all citizens.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
"The bulk of the militia movement passed in the 90’s"
I didn't say there were NONE.
It's not the fear of anyone based solely on color but on their politics and what that might bring.
Right now the Obamanator won't get as far as he'd like to so there's not the threat that might have been under other circumstances.
Rest assured I'll vote for a black conservative over a white liberal any day and that's the general consensus of most all of the conservatives that I know.
We're typically not as hung up on race as liberals are, either. |
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John_Browning
ON A LIST SOMEWHERE
Joined: Mar 23, 2009
Posts: 4456
Location: The shooting range
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| Dox47 wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | Actually, the right to bear arms, according to the constitution, is in regard to a well regulated militia. That doesn't include paranoid crackers and hay seeds forming so called militias in order to protect themselves from the American federal government, that you'll find playing weekend warrior out in the woods these days.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Wrong, wrong and wrong. The operative phrase in the amendment is "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", the militia part is just a preamble establishing a reason for the right. The Supreme Court now recognizes that this is the proper interpretation, and if you read the constitution, all other references to "the people" mean just that, regular citizens. Note that in our shared home state, over 275,000 of our fellow Washingtonians have chosen to acquire concealed pistol licenses, and gun ownership in general is very common here. Are we "crackers and hayseeds"? |
| U.S.C. TITLE 10 Subtitle A PART I CHAPTER 13 § 311 wrote: |
§ 311. Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. |
That law was last updated January 7th, 2011. The people have the right to bear arms and the militia has the right to bear arms, but either way the citizens get guns because the citizens are the militia as well.
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12775
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:28 am Post subject: |
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I have no problem with people owning guns. I'll even concede it's a constitutional right.
I just don't want crazy people to have guns (loony tunes who think the government is going to send out black street gangs to seize their guns, and insane idiots who buy into that Bapticostal crap that they have to arm themselves to fight Satan's minions at Armageddon).
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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Dox47
Consigliere
Joined: Jan 29, 2008
Posts: 5192
Location: Seattle Area
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | I have no problem with people owning guns. I'll even concede it's a constitutional right.
I just don't want crazy people to have guns (loony tunes who think the government is going to send out black street gangs to seize their guns, and insane idiots who buy into that Bapticostal crap that they have to arm themselves to fight Satan's minions at Armageddon).
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
The thing is, you don't get to decide who's crazy and who isn't, that's strictly a medical diagnosis and not a political litmus test. Besides which, the vast majority of gun crime is not committed by any of the people you mention, but rather by people already legally barred from possessing arms, often employed in the drug trade. In fact, whenever I think of violence involving militia types it's been the government that's been the aggressor, and usually in the legal wrong to boot. Ever wonder why the feds had to PAY the survivors of Ruby Ridge, or why virtually no Waco survivors were charged with anything serious even though ATF personnel were killed? I know whatever partisan allegiance you hold virtually requires you to keep saying these sorts of things, but really now.
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Unconditional allegiance is the surest way to render one’s beliefs and agenda irrelevant
Any power that government has to do something you like will invariably be used for something you abhor
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AceOfSpades
Deeds not words
Joined: Feb 12, 2006
Posts: 3647
Location: Sean Penn, Cambodia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | I have no problem with people owning guns. I'll even concede it's a constitutional right.
I just don't want crazy people to have guns (loony tunes who think the government is going to send out black street gangs to seize their guns, and insane idiots who buy into that Bapticostal crap that they have to arm themselves to fight Satan's minions at Armageddon).
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Wow are you so desperate to pull the race card out that you have to resort to making no sense? The Government telling Black street gangs to seize their guns wtf? That's what the police is for |
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Vexcalibur
Proud to be smug as heck
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Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Posts: 5379
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | I have no problem with people owning guns. I'll even concede it's a constitutional right.
I just don't want crazy people to have guns (loony tunes who think the government is going to send out black street gangs to seize their guns, and insane idiots who buy into that Bapticostal crap that they have to arm themselves to fight Satan's minions at Armageddon).
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Just make licenses and insurance necessary for gun usage, just like cars.
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AceOfSpades
Deeds not words
Joined: Feb 12, 2006
Posts: 3647
Location: Sean Penn, Cambodia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Vexcalibur wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | I have no problem with people owning guns. I'll even concede it's a constitutional right.
I just don't want crazy people to have guns (loony tunes who think the government is going to send out black street gangs to seize their guns, and insane idiots who buy into that Bapticostal crap that they have to arm themselves to fight Satan's minions at Armageddon).
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Just make licenses and insurance necessary for gun usage, just like cars. |
Why insurance? |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12775
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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I don't care if Randy Weaver got off Scott free, and his daughters got rich, or if the Branch Davidiots weren't charged with murder - that has more to do with people in the court system fearing a public backlash. In both these cases, crazy people manged to cast themselves in the light of the victim. As far as I'm concerned, Weaver and David (Karesh) Howell had created the situations that had brought about calamity.
As for the notion of black street gangs being sent to seize citizens' weapons - that is a racial fantasy believed by militia members for years. In the past, white nationalists had told people that the Zionist Occupied Government (ZOG) was going to send in their "black police" to take guns from white people. In later years, the racists smartened up (as much as that is possible for their likes to smarten up), and used the tern "street gangs" in place of blacks, in order to win more people to their side. That way, militia members could deny they were racists while pushing the old paranoid fantasy.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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Raptor
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 09, 2007
Posts: 4505
Location: Southeast U.S.A.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Vexcalibur wrote:
| Quote: | | Just make licenses and insurance necessary for gun usage, just like cars. |
And what exactly will that do besides give the government even more power over our lives and make even more money for the insurance companies??
Kraichgauer wrote:
| Quote: | | I don't care if Randy Weaver got off Scott free, and his daughters got rich, or if the Branch Davidiots weren't charged with murder - that has more to do with people in the court system fearing a public backlash. In both these cases, crazy people manged to cast themselves in the light of the victim. As far as I'm concerned, Weaver and David (Karesh) Howell had created the situations that had brought about calamity. |
I admit their beliefs were a bit out there but what did they do to deserve having the wrath of the federal government come down on them like that?
| Quote: | | As for the notion of black street gangs being sent to seize citizens' weapons - that is a racial fantasy believed by militia members for years. In the past, white nationalists had told people that the Zionist Occupied Government (ZOG) was going to send in their "black police" to take guns from white people. In later years, the racists smartened up (as much as that is possible for their likes to smarten up), and used the tern "street gangs" in place of blacks, in order to win more people to their side. That way, militia members could deny they were racists while pushing the old paranoid fantasy. |
First I’ve heard of it but it’s one of the nuttier allegations I’ve heard.
Can’t be much to it or it would be better known amongst us crackers and hayseeds.
But on the other hand when you’re grasping at straws and don't mind being ridiculed I guess anything will do. |
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RedHanrahan
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 02, 2007
Age: 47
Posts: 1174
Location: Aotearoa/New Zealand
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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Within the last month the BBC world service[radio] had a two part documentary concerning 'Americas internal threats', in summary the government agencies interviewed had identified 'over 2000 active militia groups' including neo nazi's, the KKK affiliates and militant gun lobbyists. I rather got the impression that the USA had more to fear from them than from 'militant islam'
peace j
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