I'm not saying it's all bad. There are definitely examples of good animation out there. In my experience, opening themes often get special treatment too (for example, the opening theme in Fullmetal Alchemist probably had the best fight scenes in the whole show).
In any case, compare the facial expressions going on during conversations in the lion king with those of most anime characters.
It's difficult to say that nothing is happening in your Angel Beats video, however you will notice that whenever things revert to conversations there is very little movement (mostly just mouths opening/shutting).
At 0:10 you can see that they have looped the girl walking, and then zoomed in on random bits of the loop to drag it out even more.
At 0:19 when she gets shot, screen focuses on her face for more talking. Nothing but the mouth moves. 2 frames repeated over and over. E.g. o O o O o O (best I could do in text..)
At 0:26 the characters move into a pose of absolute stillness so that they can continue their conversation.
At 0:41 cuts to the guys face instead of focusing on the battle, so he can talk whilst moving his eyes left and right (more simple movements).
The scene at 1:53 with all the mechanics(?) isn't even animated. It's just one image and the screen scrolls over it.
I admit this kind of stuff is on a small scale in this video.
Watch what goes on in the first few minutes of this. Look how basic it is.
Obviously things pick up during action scenes. Unfortunately most of the dialogue outside of those is hard for me to sit through.
You have convinced me to at least try some of the newest shows. It's 2011! There might be something out there for me.
One I'm really looking forward to next year is Berserk.
Joined: May 26, 2008 Age: 22 Posts: 6123 Location: Sydney, Australia
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:36 am Post subject:
Yeah I guess that one of the reasons I did not follow Brotherhood was that I had really already seen the first series, and that I did not really see the huge increase in animation that some people said gripped them. I have also seen some trailers to older shows, and the poor animation movement is a bit of a turn off. Also not a fan of some series thathave particulary ugly looking animation like Tatamari and House of 5 leaves.
Well it is not like Disney is immune from cutting corners, just search Disney recycled animation. _________________ Blast Reality! Burst it into shreds! Banishment... this world!
Yeah I guess that one of the reasons I did not follow Brotherhood was that I had really already seen the first series, and that I did not really see the huge increase in animation that some people said gripped them. I have also seen some trailers to older shows, and the poor animation movement is a bit of a turn off. Also not a fan of some series thathave particulary ugly looking animation like Tatamari and House of 5 leaves.
Well it is not like Disney is immune from cutting corners, just search Disney recycled animation.
It's not really cutting corners on the animation. It's just animated an identical scene with new characters. I find when they do that (from what I saw in the first video I clicked) it didn't really detract from anything. It still looks good and serves it's purpose for the most part. In anime cutting corners leads to a noticeable drop in quality.
A lot of anime are mostly conversation and they still cut corners every chance they get.
I really liked this show but the animation is sooo boring. It sucks when a good anime is 75% conversation.
@Tollorin: They are not simply "doing the best they can with limited resources". I have no idea why you have said that "further limited animation" is an artform. Cutting corners doesn't make them better... I don't know who Hanna Barbera is and I would never ask 20-30 year old French Canadian people what their favorite cartoon was back in the day.
I didn't meant "further limited animation", I meant that they developped "limited animation" further. They have been able to use it as a strength rather that a weakness by using establishing shot and ryhtm.
Hanna Barbera is the animation studio that made Tom and Jerry, The Flinstones, The Jetsons, Yogy Bear, Scooby Doo and many other series. While animation was declining on big screen they made animated series for televison on a far lower cost using limited animation. Before critcizing the use japanesse make of animation you should at least know about such things.
I didn't explain myself well when I was talking about "asking" french-canadians their favourite "cartoons". But still it's easy to observe that the most missed cartoons for some generations were generally animes. Of course this is not a absolute, but still a strong trend.
The Perfect Storm wrote:
Your other claims include:
1. anime has more detailed drawings and better aesthetic compared to American animation.
2. Japanese animators are better at portraying movement.
My response to 1 is that I agree with you to a point. The kind of animation I usually see on TV from America is terrible. It's often horrible to look at. What's worse is lately they seem to be copying anime (similar style, and obviously cutting corners much like anime; e.g. shows like 6teen). On the other hand when it comes to films I believe the Americans do aesthetic/detail much better than the Japanese. Stuff like The Lion King, Bambi etc.
The reason north-american animation look horrible when "copying" anime, is because they do it wrong. There is the exception of Avatar: The Last Airbender who have done it right, but animated in Korea. Those who don't use the anime style still frequently go for the same style that Hanna-Barbera, like SpongeBob SquarePants or Fairy Godparents; rather that the more costly naturistic style of the 80s and the Disney animated serie of the early 90s.
Some japanesse movies do equal, or even surpassing, the level of details seen in Disney movies.
The Perfect Storm wrote:
Your other claims include:
1. anime has more detailed drawings and better aesthetic compared to American animation.
2. Japanese animators are better at portraying movement.
In response to 2, I don't think the Japanese are better with movement at all. When you watch an anime you can see how badly animated it is. Even some of the ugliest American cartoons have better animation (except the cheap anime knockoffs).
I said they understand better that movements are illusions. This is showed in the way they use limited animation and the way they're animating. If you're ever watch in slow motion the sword fights during San attack of Irontown in Princess Mononoke, you could notice that the swords/knikes swings are made with only two drawing (beginning of the siwng and the end) and some bright motion lines. It's allow much more dynamic and fast movements that what would permit full animation in less drawings, and the brain still decode it as a full movement.
Joined: May 26, 2008 Age: 22 Posts: 6123 Location: Sydney, Australia
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:47 am Post subject:
There are some bad ones. I am trying to think of some western tv animation to compare anime too, but I am having a hard time thinking of any. _________________ Blast Reality! Burst it into shreds! Banishment... this world!
There are some bad ones. I am trying to think of some western tv animation to compare anime too, but I am having a hard time thinking of any.
Most of the ones I saw during childhood were anime. Especially in the morning you would see stuff like Dragonball Z, Yugioh, Pokemon, Digimon etc. repeatedly. Often when American shows were aired they might be a mix of live-action and CGI.
Some American animation includes like, The Simpsons, King of the Hill, Daria etc. I can think of more, but I can't remember the names of them. They all seemed fairly old though. Only one I can think of is Catdog.
Joined: Jun 25, 2011 Age: 17 Posts: 206 Location: Mississippi, USA
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:00 pm Post subject:
I watch anime because movies are just way too long and the lack of good western TV shows is disturbing. I mean, there a good couple funny shows but not really anything that tells great stories besides maybe Doctor Who and other Sci-Fi shows, but those run on way too long. Same reason I don't watch shows like Bleach. Fifty episodes is pushing my limits already! _________________ I am a geek who likes stuff of eclectic types.
You are all forgetting that story isn't really what makes anime good, not most of the time anyways, if that were true than all animes might as well be books (Yes, an anime can be good with just story alone, Monster is a such example). Sound and animation are important too. Like this scene for example gets away with minimal animation because of the way the animation is used and the music working together to create memorable scenes.
Another example of animation and music working together to create a memorable scene.
I think this is the reason why anime fans exist. Such a style of directing simply does not exist in Hollywood.
It's when there aren't enough of those kinds of scenes that I lose interest.
I think an anime needs to be good at everything that it does. Story, direction, music, animation etc. The overall product needs to be worthwhile. It seems all too often there's an anime with a great story, music etc. and poor animation. Or there's one with great animation and a worthless story.
Joined: Jun 25, 2011 Age: 17 Posts: 206 Location: Mississippi, USA
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:42 pm Post subject:
KingLes98 wrote:
You are all forgetting that story isn't really what makes anime good, not most of the time anyways, if that were true than all animes might as well be books.
I hate this argument... It's basis lies in the implication that all a book has is story, as opposed to animation which has, well, animation or video games which have gameplay. As a fan of great stories regardless of medium, I must say that this statement does a disservice to literature by dismissing that literature has any sort of art to it besides writing a story. One such technique would be adding to suspense by withholding vital scene description by simply avoiding naming the character. This allows for scenes which can be revisited later filling in pieces of the puzzle that couldn't be done in any visual work. As such, I find your argument ignores the fact that while animation has animation and video games have gameplay, literature has its own unique experiences.
Sorry for the tangent, and looking back I am sort of doubting that any of this needed to be said considering it is unrelated to the core discussion and very nitpicky, but I might as well post it toward anyone reading who might find this interesting. This is also by no means a personal attack, as I'm sure you were aware of this and just not thinking through your statement. _________________ I am a geek who likes stuff of eclectic types.
