Asp-Z
Clockwork Planet
Joined: Dec 07, 2009
Posts: 11016
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 Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Venger wrote: | | Asp-Z wrote: |
Surely the whole basis of our legal system is that past cases do influence future cases? Or am I mistaken? |
In the case I mentioned a few posts up, the two very young murderers were released when they were just barely adults because of a loophole in the law which was closed after that. |
Exactly, so it's good that these things have an effect.
I don't care how old you are, if you go around stabbing people then you should deal with the consequences IMHO. |
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Asp-Z
Clockwork Planet
Joined: Dec 07, 2009
Posts: 11016
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Just thought of something... The mens rea is not always needed. For example, if you don't intend to kill someone but do so accidentally, you'd still likely get charged with manslaughter. |
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heavenlyabyss
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 10, 2011
Posts: 530
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| Asp-Z wrote: | | Venger wrote: | | Asp-Z wrote: |
Surely the whole basis of our legal system is that past cases do influence future cases? Or am I mistaken? |
In the case I mentioned a few posts up, the two very young murderers were released when they were just barely adults because of a loophole in the law which was closed after that. |
Exactly, so it's good that these things have an effect.
I don't care how old you are, if you go around stabbing people then you should deal with the consequences IMHO. |
What if you are schizophrenic and can't tell reality from fantasy? Should the schizophrenic person receive the exact same sentence as a sociopath who kills out of malice?
In my opinion, one deserves rehab, and the other deserves jail. Both deserve consequences but the consequences should be different.
The same holds true for 5-year olds. The most likely possibility is that this 5-year old was being abused, and lashed out because of it. He needs help and not jail. Jail will not help either him or the society.
The best way to help society is nipping evil in the bud. |
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Asp-Z
Clockwork Planet
Joined: Dec 07, 2009
Posts: 11016
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Rehabilitation rarely works and keeping dangerous people out of society's way is what jail is for. |
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ProfumoAffair
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Feb 23, 2012
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Mental hospital for the mad. Jail for the bad. Sociopaths go in the second category for knowing what they are doing.
Edit: You're not really doing a good job if you can't rehabilitate people well. |
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Mithos
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 22, 2012
Age: 22
Posts: 685
Location: Ponyville, Equestria.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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I just had this picture in my head of a baby in a prison cell, crying with a guard shouting "Keep it quiet!"
_________________
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I have Severe ADHD (Diagnosed), Tics and Mild OCD. [Fully Alert, Test Retaken.]
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heavenlyabyss
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Joined: Sep 10, 2011
Posts: 530
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| Asp-Z wrote: | | Rehabilitation rarely works and keeping dangerous people out of society's way is what jail is for. |
Yes, I agree, but again, we are talking about a 5 year old. My point is that the source of this evil needs to be determined if we are to prevent the spread of evil most efficiently This requires further investigation and information that the article does not provide for us.
I'm sorry but I just do not believe that a 5-year old has the rationality to know what they are doing. A 5-year old is not capable of evil, in my opinion. If you could provide evidence that the child was a spawn of Satan himself, then I would agree with you. But based on the limited knowledge we have available, my intuition tells me that is the learned behavior, and a 5 -year old cannot be held criminally responsible.
At the very least, I would suggest neglect as a possibility. How did this 5-year old gain access to a stabbing weapon in the first place? How was he let through the cracks? We need to look to the source, and if you can provide me with evidence that there is no evil source, that the evil lies within the child himself, I would be more inclined to agree with you. Until then, I just can't bring myself to do it. |
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Asp-Z
Clockwork Planet
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Posts: 11016
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| heavenlyabyss wrote: | | Asp-Z wrote: | | Rehabilitation rarely works and keeping dangerous people out of society's way is what jail is for. |
Yes, I agree, but again, we are talking about a 5 year old. My point is that the source of this evil needs to be determined if we are to prevent the spread of evil most efficiently This requires further investigation and information that the article does not provide for us.
I'm sorry but I just do not believe that a 5-year old has the rationality to know what they are doing. A 5-year old is not capable of evil, in my opinion. If you could provide evidence that the child was a spawn of Satan himself, then I would agree with you. But based on the limited knowledge we have available, my intuition tells me that is the learned behavior, and a 5 -year old cannot be held criminally responsible.
At the very least, I would suggest neglect as a possibility. How did this 5-year old gain access to a stabbing weapon in the first place? How was he let through the cracks? We need to look to the source, and if you can provide me with evidence that there is no evil source, that the evil lies within the child himself, I would be more inclined to agree with you. Until then, I just can't bring myself to do it. |
IMHO, people are born in a state which our society deems as "evil." By this I mean that they do not have any limits to their behaviour. For example, we know not to kill because society tells us we shouldn't do it and because we will be punished harshly for it. However, I do not believe this is natural human nature because humans in tribes kill humans in other tribes - it's part of their society. It's just that our society has deemed it a terrible thing.
Therefore, I believe that children are actually the most "evil" people of all. They don't have a full grasp of the limits our society places on us and therefore are able to break them very easily. |
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ProfumoAffair
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Feb 23, 2012
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| It's a dangerous thing to assume people are inherently evil. I think the poster just above Asp-Z isn't timid when it comes to punishment at all. In fact I agree with them. And they're right. Effective prevention requires analysis. No point making willy nilly statements about who is evil. |
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Mithos
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 22, 2012
Age: 22
Posts: 685
Location: Ponyville, Equestria.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:08 am Post subject: |
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If a child kills someone, send his butt to jail for life. That's the way I'm seeing our future.
_________________
{{Certified Coffeeholic.}}
I have Severe ADHD (Diagnosed), Tics and Mild OCD. [Fully Alert, Test Retaken.]
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Your Aspie score: 128 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 72 of 200
You are very likely an Aspie |
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Asp-Z
Clockwork Planet
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Posts: 11016
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| ProfumoAffair wrote: | | It's a dangerous thing to assume people are inherently evil. I think the poster just above Asp-Z isn't timid when it comes to punishment at all. In fact I agree with them. And they're right. Effective prevention requires analysis. No point making willy nilly statements about who is evil. |
It's a dangerous thing to assume that basic human nature is anything but what we call "evil." |
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ProfumoAffair
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Feb 23, 2012
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Asp-Z wrote: | | ProfumoAffair wrote: | | It's a dangerous thing to assume people are inherently evil. I think the poster just above Asp-Z isn't timid when it comes to punishment at all. In fact I agree with them. And they're right. Effective prevention requires analysis. No point making willy nilly statements about who is evil. |
It's a dangerous thing to assume that basic human nature is anything but what we call "evil." |
So you run on a premise of guilty until proven innocent do you? |
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Asp-Z
Clockwork Planet
Joined: Dec 07, 2009
Posts: 11016
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| ProfumoAffair wrote: | | Asp-Z wrote: | | ProfumoAffair wrote: | | It's a dangerous thing to assume people are inherently evil. I think the poster just above Asp-Z isn't timid when it comes to punishment at all. In fact I agree with them. And they're right. Effective prevention requires analysis. No point making willy nilly statements about who is evil. |
It's a dangerous thing to assume that basic human nature is anything but what we call "evil." |
So you run on a premise of guilty until proven innocent do you? |
Of course not, when did I say that? However, if you know someone committed a crime (as we know this 5 year old stabbed people), then something should certainly be done about it. |
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heavenlyabyss
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Joined: Sep 10, 2011
Posts: 530
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:51 am Post subject: |
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Well, Asp-Z is actually right in a way. The child most certainly is guilty of something that would normally be considered a crime and we must never forget that. I do recognize the child was acting out of anger, but does he really know the difference between right and wrong? Probably not. The child deserves consequences, but jail time is just absurd in my opinion.
There is a danger to making exceptions for people. Some people may believe this is a slippery slope but I just feel like the slippery slope argument is a fallacy.
Typically, children under 7 are deemed incapable of criminal intent. I admit it is somewhat arbitrary but it is based on scientific studies of brain development and so it is not completely arbitrary. I mean, we can't hold a 2-year old responsible for accidentally poking his mom's eye with the corner of a book for example. I mean there is a point where absolutism becomes absurdity. And that is why absolutism is a fallacy in this case.
I feel silly debating this actually. I keep imaging a 5-year old child going to jail, lol. The image is absurd but I am trying to be rational rather than emotional about this. |
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Asp-Z
Clockwork Planet
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Posts: 11016
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| Jail time would be silly but a criminal record is certainly order. Perhaps a fine pointed at the parents too. |
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