puddingmouse
exclamation mark!
Joined: Apr 25, 2010
Age: 26
Posts: 7328
Location: Cottonopolis
|
 Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:28 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
^
Romance novels, porn and crappy sitcoms are all part of the same old gender role-reinforcing rubbish.
_________________
I'm written in a language even I don't understand - but I am learning. |
|
| Back to top |
|
AspieOtaku
Leader of the Otaku Legion
Joined: Feb 18, 2012
Age: 30
Posts: 5983
Location: Los Altos, California, United States
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I am ok with Feminism as long as it doesn't go to the extreme where they will say and put up signs saying men are useless etc. No gender is superior over the other and no gender is useless. Once I came across a femenist extremist telling me that men are worthless etc and women can rule the world without men. I applied my logic to her remarks and said "without men you wouldn't be here, because you need the other 23 chromosomes to create you and I know it goes the other way around as well." Sure you could clone but it wouldn't be natures way cloning doesn't allow the human race to evolve as efficiently or replicate the human race fast enough if a natural disaster like a meteor was to hit the earth the human species would probably go extinct. No one gender that requires the means of sexual reproduction can live on without the other for it would mean extinction. Women are not sex objects or weak neither are all men stupid, useless, lummoxes who degrade women. There are good and bad in either gender therefore we should just get along and not hate or degrade each other.
_________________
Your Aspie score is 193 of 200
Your neurotypical score is 40 of 200
You are very likely an aspie
No matter where I go I will always be a Gaijin even at home. Like Anime? http://www.anime44.com/anime-list |
|
| Back to top |
|
TheDarkMage
Velociraptor
Joined: Feb 21, 2012
Posts: 418
Location: united kingdom
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| AspieOtaku wrote: | | I am ok with Feminism as long as it doesn't go to the extreme where they will say and put up signs saying men are useless etc. No gender is superior over the other and no gender is useless. Once I came across a femenist extremist telling me that men are worthless etc and women can rule the world without men. I applied my logic to her remarks and said "without men you wouldn't be here, because you need the other 23 chromosomes to create you and I know it goes the other way around as well." Sure you could clone but it wouldn't be natures way cloning doesn't allow the human race to evolve as efficiently or replicate the human race fast enough if a natural disaster like a meteor was to hit the earth the human species would probably go extinct. No one gender that requires the means of sexual reproduction can live on without the other for it would mean extinction. Women are not sex objects or weak neither are all men stupid, useless, lummoxes who degrade women. There are good and bad in either gender therefore we should just get along and not hate or degrade each other. |
feminism does not support your views. feminism is ONLY for WOMEN and is against men.
| AH wrote: |
Hermann Goering ... "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
Feminists ... "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the feminist leaders. All you have to do is tell women and children that they are being attacked (by men) and denounce those who protest as 'supporters of abuse' and for exposing women and children to danger. It works the same way in any country." |
_________________
follow me
https://twitter.com/mageoftakhisis |
|
| Back to top |
|
Ancalagon
Computer Geek
Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 2410
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LKL wrote: | | advertisements that constantly show men as idiots who are incapable of ironing a shirt (or the recent trend in comedies to portray men as basically overgrown 13 year olds) without burning it are also damaging on a subtle level. |
Well, it might be damaging on a subtle level, but if it's a subtle enough level, it really isn't that terrible. Sure, some comedies portray all men as moronic overgrown 13 year olds. But that doesn't mean that society in general thinks of men as moronic overgrown 13 year olds from a comedy.
I think overt assertions that men are all idiots or women are all sex toys are objectionable, but I don't think that bad porn or stupid comedies rise to that level.
| Quote: | | Ok, so porn is about fantasies: why do so many men fantasize about degrading women sexually, or even violently? |
I've seen the idea that porn is violent before, and I've seen a lot of porn, and I don't think the idea that porn is violent can be supported. And, really, that something is a fantasy makes a huge difference. Just because you have a fantasy about something doesn't mean you actually want it to happen in reality. There are a fair number of women with rape fantasies, but that doesn't mean they want to actually be raped.
| Quote: | | That a lot of men do so can't be in doubt, because there's a huge market for this stuff. |
I think there is too much degradation in porn (in case that wasn't clear before), but I don't think you can measure the size of the population that is into degradation by looking at how much there is in porn. It can be hard to find stuff that is non-degrading, but that doesn't mean that people are going to stop watching porn over that, even if they really would prefer gentler, more romantic stuff.
Even if you could measure the size of the population that is into degrading stuff, all you're measuring is their fantasies, not whether or not they respect women. I just don't think you can get a strong enough signal from porn to judge society by.
| Quote: | | Why is it better/easier/more entertaining to get your rocks off watching a woman humiliated and unhappy* than it is to watch a couple in mutual play? Because that latter type of sex is *not* what sells well. |
You're ignoring amateur porn here, which is frequently about real couples and sells pretty well despite having worse production value and less good-looking people in it (on average). You're also assuming that the women involved aren't getting off on it, which is not always true.
| Quote: | | *or feigning happiness with behavior that no one with decent self-esteem would enjoy. |
I don't think it's impossible, or even that hard, to get off on being degraded. I don't think it implies anything bad about a person that they can get off on that sort of thing, with their self-esteem or anything else.
_________________
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton |
|
| Back to top |
|
Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26302
Location: Lancashire, UK
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ancalagon wrote: | | You're ignoring amateur porn here, which is frequently about real couples and sells pretty well despite having worse production value and less good-looking people in it (on average). You're also assuming that the women involved aren't getting off on it, which is not always true. possible, or even that hard, to get off on being degraded. I don't think it implies anything bad about a person that they can get off on that sort of thing, with their self-esteem or anything else. |
Amateur porn is where it is at IMO.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
puddingmouse
exclamation mark!
Joined: Apr 25, 2010
Age: 26
Posts: 7328
Location: Cottonopolis
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Straight porn is an excellent advertisement for lesbianism.
_________________
I'm written in a language even I don't understand - but I am learning. |
|
| Back to top |
|
LKL
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Age: 37
Posts: 5741
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| puddingmouse wrote: | ^
Romance novels, porn and crappy sitcoms are all part of the same old gender role-reinforcing rubbish. |
QFT. Look at the whole 'Twilight' saga, for example: the hero is a stalker, and the heroine exists mainly to be repeatedly rescued.
also:
Porn makers produce what sells the most, for the most money. If more men wanted happy couple sex with beautiful production values, then more producers would make that. As for what proportion of porn is actually violent, vs. degrading, I don't know, nor do I care to find out personally; however, I do know that violent porn *exists,* and is sold in mainstream sex shops. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Vexcalibur
Proud to be smug as heck
![]()
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Posts: 5383
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LKL wrote: | For the several people who don't think that the degradation that happens in porn is a problem and that it doesn't necessarily reflect or impact on reality, I have to disagree with you. Media is produced by, reflects, and impacts culture in a constant interaction, and (to take a less serious example) advertisements that constantly show men as idiots who are incapable of ironing a shirt (or the recent trend in comedies to portray men as basically overgrown 13 year olds) without burning it are also damaging on a subtle level.
Ok, so porn is about fantasies: why do so many men fantasize about degrading women sexually, or even violently? That a lot of men do so can't be in doubt, because there's a huge market for this stuff. Why is it better/easier/more entertaining to get your rocks off watching a woman humiliated and unhappy* than it is to watch a couple in mutual play? Because that latter type of sex is *not* what sells well.
|
Professional-made porn is crud for these and more reasons.
Amateur (and I mean truly amateur) on the other hand is much better, and healthier. A lot of things are helped by the fact that it is not money-driven and the people in it are as interested in enjoying as the viewer is. Including that people actually use condoms, goshdarnit.
_________________
. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26302
Location: Lancashire, UK
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LKL wrote: | | As for what proportion of porn is actually violent, vs. degrading, I don't know, nor do I care to find out personally; however, I do know that violent porn *exists,* and is sold in mainstream sex shops. |
Not here in Britain it isn't. That stuff is cut from porn that is sold in licensed sex shops here. The same goes for the less mild BDSM-type stuff. Abusive pornography - like the Facial Abuse stuff - would be banned outright if submitted. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26302
Location: Lancashire, UK
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Vexcalibur wrote: | | Amateur (and I mean truly amateur) on the other hand is much better, and healthier. |
Not always. I've seen some amateur porn of real people that is pretty unhealthy. A lot of amateur porn can be very misogynistic. |
|
| Back to top |
|
puddingmouse
exclamation mark!
Joined: Apr 25, 2010
Age: 26
Posts: 7328
Location: Cottonopolis
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
^
Thanks for busting the stereotype that lesbians 'hate men'. However, I think you're projecting. Lesbian feminists are 'safe' to you because they have no attraction to you and don't really try to influence the power dynamics of straight relationships. Feminists that still have heterosexual relationships are more of a threat. Or they are more threatened by you. It could go both ways.
If I'm wrong, please give me some examples of what you mean by 'practising what they preach'.
_________________
I'm written in a language even I don't understand - but I am learning. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Vexcalibur
Proud to be smug as heck
![]()
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Posts: 5383
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tequila wrote: | | Vexcalibur wrote: | | Amateur (and I mean truly amateur) on the other hand is much better, and healthier. |
Not always. I've seen some amateur porn of real people that is pretty unhealthy. A lot of amateur porn can be very misogynistic. |
all right all right. If you know where to find though. There's good porn out there enjoyed both by men and women. It takes effort and you need a critical mind even for porn though.
_________________
. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26302
Location: Lancashire, UK
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Vexcalibur wrote: | | Not always. |
True. I think it's just with the state of some of the amateur porn I've seen, I really have to wonder about the women themselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Ancalagon
Computer Geek
Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 2410
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LKL wrote: | | Porn makers produce what sells the most, for the most money. If more men wanted happy couple sex with beautiful production values, then more producers would make that. |
There isn't much kissing, to take an example, in mainstream straight porn. When there is, the girl usually either just puts up with it (which is not sexy), or has a visible "eew, stop it" reaction (which is very not sexy). When she doesn't do that and actually responds, it's going to be a really good scene. In lesbian porn, there is a lot more kissing, and although there are some 'put up with it' style reactions, there are not nearly as many.
I'm not entirely sure why, but that seems to be the usual reaction from anyone female doing porn in a more-or-less career-like mode (the males all seem fine with kissing). Non-amateur porn gets female performers from exactly this pool of people, and people watching porn aren't going to stop watching if they don't get exactly what they want. So porn producers aren't really put in a bind by not having enough kissing and so forth, because nobody else has enough either.
| Quote: | | I do know that violent porn *exists,* and is sold in mainstream sex shops. |
I can't really answer this without knowing exactly what you're talking about, but in my experience, this is wrong. Either that, or you're using the word 'violent' in a way that's very different from how I would use it.
_________________
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
