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heavenlyabyss
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fnord wrote:
The last few women I interviewed for an entry-level engineer's position could not pass a simple exam involving nothing more difficult than Ohm's Law, reactance, parallel values, and standing-wave ratios. Each of the same number of men solved each equation correctly.

If you have an electrical engineering degree, then you should know these things, and not rely on tears and cleavage to get you by.

Rolling Eyes


Lol, I'm not surprised to see that you are in a position of power.

It's not what you are saying, it is the way you are saying it. Seriously, tears? I can't even tell if you are being serious or not but if you are, have a heart for god's sake. Don't hire them obviously if they're not qualified, but seriously, have a heart. Not every woman who breaks down in tears or who is wearing something slightly revealing is trying to manipulate you.
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Fnord
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

heavenlyabyss wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The last few women I interviewed for an entry-level engineer's position could not pass a simple exam involving nothing more difficult than Ohm's Law, reactance, parallel values, and standing-wave ratios. Each of the same number of men solved each equation correctly. If you have an electrical engineering degree, then you should know these things, and not rely on tears and cleavage to get you by.
Lol, I'm not surprised to see that you are in a position of power. It's not what you are saying, it is the way you are saying it. Seriously, tears? I can't even tell if you are being serious or not but if you are, have a heart for god's sake.

Tears. Seriously. One started crying because, as she said, "I thought I was done with math!" Another teared up because, as she put it, "I should know this stuff!" Both had supposedly earned their BSEEs through study and hard work. Neither of them passed the screening test.

heavenlyabyss wrote:
Don't hire them obviously if they're not qualified...

Exactly. If they ace the test, they make it to the final screening. Even a high score means that they are under consideration; if not for the currently available position, then maybe another one later on.

heavenlyabyss wrote:
... but seriously, have a heart.

Equal Employment Opportunity essentially comes down to whether or not the candidates understand what is expected of them, the depth and breadth of their knowledge, and their ability and willingness to do the job. We're not in business to provide jobs to every person who needs one. We're in business to make profit in the most economical, effective, and efficient means possible, and our staffing must reflect this. "Having a Heart" usually means that the women from HR deal with the woman candidates' tears and sniffles while us guys quietly leave the room.

heavenlyabyss wrote:
Not every woman who breaks down in tears or who is wearing something slightly revealing is trying to manipulate you.

Not every one ... but it happens. One in particular comes to mind - even the women from HR scolded her on the way she was dressed. I won't go into details, but she was dressed inappropriately for an air-conditioned room, and even less appropriately for a job interview.

I mean, if these women were more prepared to demonstrate their fashion sense than their knowledge of basic engineering principles, then how did they expect to keep an engineering job if they got one? By their looks?

Rolling Eyes
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Fnord
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruveyn wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It just seems that around here (SouCal), the women seem more inclined to either bluff their way through EE classes or chose a liberal-arts major instead. At least, if there are any who graduate as an EE on their own merit, they're not knocking on our doors...
At MIT the female engineers know their stuff and don't shave their legs. ruveyn
The last intelligent face-to-face conversation I had with any woman other than my wife was with the psychologist who diagnosed me.
You don't get out and around enough. ruveyn
I'm married! Nuff said?
So am I. That does not preclude having intelligent conversations with women other than one's spouse, sister or daughter. ruveyn

Okay ... I'm married, and I live in California - Southern California. Silicon Valley and Stanford are a few hundred miles north of here, while Hollywood is an hour's drive away and Disneyland is just down the road.

Even the Amateur Radio Operators around here are more interested in the latest box scores than in any advances in technology!
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heavenlyabyss
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fnord wrote:
heavenlyabyss wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The last few women I interviewed for an entry-level engineer's position could not pass a simple exam involving nothing more difficult than Ohm's Law, reactance, parallel values, and standing-wave ratios. Each of the same number of men solved each equation correctly. If you have an electrical engineering degree, then you should know these things, and not rely on tears and cleavage to get you by.
Lol, I'm not surprised to see that you are in a position of power. It's not what you are saying, it is the way you are saying it. Seriously, tears? I can't even tell if you are being serious or not but if you are, have a heart for god's sake.

Tears. Seriously. One started crying because, as she said, "I thought I was done with math!" Another teared up because, as she put it, "I should know this stuff!" Both had supposedly earned their BSEEs through study and hard work. Neither of them passed the screening test.

heavenlyabyss wrote:
Don't hire them obviously if they're not qualified...

Exactly. If they ace the test, they make it to the final screening. Even a high score means that they are under consideration; if not for the currently available position, then maybe another one later on.

heavenlyabyss wrote:
... but seriously, have a heart.

Equal Employment Opportunity essentially comes down to whether or not the candidates understand what is expected of them, the depth and breadth of their knowledge, and their ability and willingness to do the job. We're not in business to provide jobs to every person who needs one. We're in business to make profit in the most economical, effective, and efficient means possible, and our staffing must reflect this. "Having a Heart" usually means that the women from HR deal with the woman candidates' tears and sniffles while us guys quietly leave the room.

heavenlyabyss wrote:
Not every woman who breaks down in tears or who is wearing something slightly revealing is trying to manipulate you.

Not every one ... but it happens. One in particular comes to mind - even the women from HR scolded her on the way she was dressed. I won't go into details, but she was dressed inappropriately for an air-conditioned room, and even less appropriately for a job interview.

I mean, if these women were more prepared to demonstrate their fashion sense than their knowledge of basic engineering principles, then how did they expect to keep an engineering job if they got one? By their looks?

Rolling Eyes


I agree that you should not hire someone is not qualified. But you are deflecting.

I don't think I need to say anymore.
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heavenlyabyss
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fnord wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It just seems that around here (SouCal), the women seem more inclined to either bluff their way through EE classes or chose a liberal-arts major instead. At least, if there are any who graduate as an EE on their own merit, they're not knocking on our doors...
At MIT the female engineers know their stuff and don't shave their legs. ruveyn
The last intelligent face-to-face conversation I had with any woman other than my wife was with the psychologist who diagnosed me.
You don't get out and around enough. ruveyn
I'm married! Nuff said?
So am I. That does not preclude having intelligent conversations with women other than one's spouse, sister or daughter. ruveyn

Okay ... I'm married, and I live in California - Southern California. Silicon Valley and Stanford are a few hundred miles north of here, while Hollywood is an hour's drive away and Disneyland is just down the road.

Even the Amateur Radio Operators around here are more interested in the latest box scores than in any advances in technology!


The fact that you are married doesn't mean anything.
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Fnord
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

heavenlyabyss wrote:
I agree that you should not hire someone is not qualified.

Good.

heavenlyabyss wrote:
But you are deflecting.

Not at all. I'm being straight on with you. It is you who is trying to deflect.

heavenlyabyss wrote:
I don't think I need to say anymore.

Good.

heavenlyabyss wrote:
The fact that you are married doesn't mean anything.

Being married means a lot to my wife and I. Who are you that you can so blithely judge business practices and personal relationships - both of which are successful?
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ruveyn
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fnord wrote:
and I live in California - Southern California. Silicon Valley and Stanford are a few hundred miles north of here, while Hollywood is an hour's drive away and Disneyland is just down the road.



Fer Sher.

ruveyn
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NicoleG
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fnord wrote:
Tears. Seriously. One started crying because, as she said, "I thought I was done with math!" Another teared up because, as she put it, "I should know this stuff!" Both had supposedly earned their BSEEs through study and hard work. Neither of them passed the screening test.


Wow. I have a hard enough time dealing with staff going through hard times and wanting to tell me all about it while I feel I have to maintain at least some semblance of a caring composure. Letting go of a long-term, but incompetent, employee who started crying on me was also quite frustrating. At least in those cases, they are people I already have some sort or repertoire with. I don't think I would have much compassion for someone crying during an interview, and especially not with those excuses. I would be too tempted to start lecturing them.
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Velociraptor
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Science needs women... sausage parties are boring!
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Vigilans
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose laboratories are easy to mistake for kitchens, and one might mistake a microscope for a sewing machine from a distance... Surprised (runs away before any women can slap me)
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Ellendra
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fnord wrote:

I mean, if these women were more prepared to demonstrate their fashion sense than their knowledge of basic engineering principles, then how did they expect to keep an engineering job if they got one? By their looks?

Rolling Eyes



Of course not, they expected to sleep with either their supervisor, or one of the other engineers, or both, in order to get credit for other people's work.

I've seen this dynamic before, too.

My current job is 100% telecommuting, which means less dealing with the flirts and borderline-hookers, but there are other ways people try to cheat. In order to even be hired people have to prove a certain level of computer proficiency, but some get to the training class and suddenly they don't know what a "window" is . . . . a little investigating usually turns up the fact that they'd had someone else take the interview for them. Another person actually claimed we weren't allowed to fire her because she was scheduled to appear on the Dr. Drew show, and thus she felt free to harass and insult both her coworkers and her boss right in front of them, she committed fraud while still in the training class, etc, and then was shocked, SHOCKED, to find she wasn't so un-firable after all.

I'm a little curious to see if I could've passed that test of yours. It's been a few years since I studied electronics in college, but when I did I was tutoring several of my classmates. When I started taking those classes, there were 3 other women in the program who started at the same time. 2 dropped out when they found out there was math involved, and one dropped out when she couldn't play the "helpless female" card to get one of the guys to do her work for her. It seems my getting the highest grades in the class meant that card no longer worked for her?
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NicoleG
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ellendra wrote:
she couldn't play the "helpless female" card


Forget math and science - That card gets used as a multi-pass by so many women for so many circumstances it sickens me. A customer tried to use that (as well as the "I had no other choice" card) as her excuse for hiring our plumbing company to do work for her and then complain about it afterwards, and I lit into her on the phone when she called to complain. I've really begun to lose patience with such people, and I'm really not in the right job position to be doing so. I figure I'm going to get myself fired one of these days for telling some "helpless female" off.
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EXPECIALLY
Phoenix
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iceveela wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Science has traditionally been a man's field. Any woman can be as good a scientist as any man, if only they would put forth the effort.

The trick is to let go of 'feelings' and 'emotions' as evidence to support a claim. Once that is accomplished, all the is left are data.

Oh, and girls should stop being afraid of mathematics - it's not all that hard.


actually, I have seen just as much emotion in men doing science as I have seen with women.

And also females and males are equal in terms of math skills. Girls actually seem to do better than guys at math...

(There is a link in the above sentence for your viewing pleasure)


I don't believe this, you just said equal and then said "better".

By even saying that girls actually do better, you're saying it's possible than one sex is more equipped to understand the material.

I didn't look at the link but one study proves nothing, previous and current studies say women excel in other areas and are in fact usually more well rounded. I honestly believe that men have the advantage in this area, and have more of a specialized brain( much like the autistic brain, meaning that they suck or are simply average at a lot of other things)

Advantage, meaning the majority of men will be more skilled INHERENTLY in math than the majority of women and that OF COURSE there are women who will excel naturally in the field as well. When I say all of this I'm talking about math more so than science, lots of fields in science require many different ways of thinking.

Let's not underscore the things that women are traditionally good at, I am wired more like a man and don't excel in many things that the women around me do, I'm not well-rounded at all.
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Last edited by EXPECIALLY on Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fnord
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ellendra wrote:
... I'm a little curious to see if I could've passed that test of yours. It's been a few years since I studied electronics in college, but when I did I was tutoring several of my classmates. When I started taking those classes, there were 3 other women in the program who started at the same time. 2 dropped out when they found out there was math involved, and one dropped out when she couldn't play the "helpless female" card to get one of the guys to do her work for her. It seems my getting the highest grades in the class meant that card no longer worked for her?

The electronics portion of the test is basic first- or second-year stuff ... E=IR ... XL=2PiFoL ... AC Phase angle ...

The troubleshooting portion is all block diagrams.

The design portion is basic logic gates and op amps.

Nothing that first- or second- year EE-track students couldn't handle ... if they earned their grades by studying and learning the material. An easy task for anyone with an Amateur Radio License (Tech - No Code), as well!
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Prism
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, scientifically speaking. The brains of men and women are usually designed to the point that men are usually logical thinkers and that is required to a point in science. While women tend to think with emotions more then logic using their right side of the brain. So it might have been part of the reason why people reached that conclusion. However, this isn't always the case, and people need to understand that. So no, I don't believe any field belongs to any gender in particular. You just have to have what it takes to do what you want to do. Please also study a lot before you enter college if you have not already. College goes at a fast pace unfortunately. I myself was too interested in certain subjects of science, so I got left behind in my studies.
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