"It's my birthday, so vote against 'Gay Marriage'"

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TeaEarlGreyHot
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04 Feb 2012, 10:59 pm

Oodain wrote:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw[/youtube]


Always an excellent video. Tea approves. :D


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OliveOilMom
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04 Feb 2012, 11:01 pm

Most people like exclusiveness in some form or fashion. If there is something that anyone, anywhere, can do or have, it loses it's value because it's easily obtainable. If sororities and fraterinities accepted anyone who wanted to join, do you think that there would be as much competition to get in one? If Ivy League schools accepted every academically and financially qualified applicant do you think they would have as much prestige? The same kind of mentality tends to creep into everything all down the rungs of society. The guy who got his GED and went to welding school feels a little bit superior to the guy who is just as smart as him but quit school at 16 after flunking out of 9th grade for skipping school so much and so therefore didn't qualify to take the GED. It's the mentality of "If there is no mental, financial or physical ability requirements and the person in charge allows me to do this and not someone else, then I must be somewhat superior to them".

If they allow gay people to marry then it loses it's "specialness". As long as there are other committed couples in love out there, that the government will not allow to marry, those who are married have some kind of superiority.

Of course not everybody thinks this way about every topic. Some do. It's competitiveness. "Marriage belongs to we straight people! You can't have it!" mentality. I have no idea why anybody would think this way. I also don't think that it's at the root of everyone's disagreement who is against gay marriage. I do think though, that anytime something is exclusive, even if no one had given any thought before to the fact that it was exclusive, when the issue comes up of changing that, and "letting a new group of people in" that people get territorial. I also don't think that most people realize they are doing this. I don't think it's a conscious feeling. I think the territorial instinct is what drives people who are already against gay people's orientation to begin with, to become defensive and not want them to "join the club" so to speak.

I may be totally off base, but that seems like a logical explination of why some people are so rabidly against something that has nothing whatsoever to do with them and will have absolutely no effect on their lives.


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06 Feb 2012, 1:51 pm

Bravo, AngelRho! I support you :D

OK, so the little girl made a statement that few on here like. Supporting gay marriage is the 'in thing' currently, so I can see how people can get mad when someone 'goes against the crowd.'

Alright, so what?
In the '70s, people used to have this same rightious indignation and such with naysayers over disagreeing with abortion and easy divorce, and yet many years later people don't have a fit if someone disagrees with them now. And why? Because those ideas that everybody thought were 'progressive' and wouldn't hurt anybody turned out to be very bad ideas over time. And even their children dislike it, because they've gotten to see the ugly fallout first hand. Marriages barely last anymore and shacking up is common. And abortion turned out to be a bit abhorrent in actual practice, so many younger people are saying they are pro-life.

Maybe people think that having gay marriage will make gay people feel better about themselves. Does it? Even in countries that have had gay marriage and enforced tolerance around for some time, there is still a high rate of depression and drug use among the gay population. There are still a lot of unhappy gay people in these countries.

You can have gay marriage or not have it, it doesn't matter. You won't be here when the consequences hit, but your children and grandchildren will. I got to be front row center when divorces soared and 'defective' babies became no longer worthy of life, as the generation before me thought those things were 'progressive' and 'good.'


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06 Feb 2012, 2:16 pm

Metalwolf wrote:
OK, so the little girl made a statement that few on here like. Supporting gay marriage is the 'in thing' currently, so I can see how people can get mad when someone 'goes against the crowd.'


Supporting equal rights for everybody is the "in thing", and has been "in" for quite some time. It is also the moral thing and the right thing to do. Or would you make the same comment about black rights and women's rights?

Metalwolf wrote:
Maybe people think that having gay marriage will make gay people feel better about themselves. Does it? Even in countries that have had gay marriage and enforced tolerance around for some time, there is still a high rate of depression and drug use among the gay population. There are still a lot of unhappy gay people in these countries.


I would like to see some statistics on that. Not that I doubt that gay and other LGBT people suffer from depression more often than heterosexual cisgender people, simply because they are bullied and discriminated against (and because people write all kinds of BS about them on internet forums).



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06 Feb 2012, 3:34 pm

CrazyCatLord wrote:


Supporting equal rights for everybody is the "in thing", and has been "in" for quite some time. It is also the moral thing and the right thing to do. Or would you make the same comment about black rights and women's rights?
How can you compare a mere sexual preferance to being discriminated on concrete physical differences? And that using that tired 'civil rights' arguement really falls flat as gays haven't been sold as property or denied the right to vote.

CrazyCatLord wrote:


I would like to see some statistics on that. Not that I doubt that gay and other LGBT people suffer from depression more often than heterosexual cisgender people, simply because they are bullied and discriminated against (and because people write all kinds of BS about them on internet forums).
I've tried finding them about the UK. I just can't. Not because there is a lesser amount of depression in gays there, but because they don't seem to exist, period. I'd love to see them, heck maybe they might prove me wrong. But finding actual graph statistics instead of just quotes is very hard.

Edit: This thread is also a bit boring to stay in. It was fun while it lasted, but I really meant to say just one post and be done with it. I normally stay out of gay-themed threads because I hate endless debating. So, tootles!


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Last edited by Metalwolf on 06 Feb 2012, 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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06 Feb 2012, 3:59 pm

Metalwolf wrote:
And that using that tired 'civil rights' arguement really falls flat as gays haven't been sold as property or denied the right to vote.


They've been tortured and executed in the past, and this is still happening as we speak.


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06 Feb 2012, 4:12 pm

Metalwolf, since it's only a "mere sexual preference", I suppose it wouldn't upset you if they passed a law that said you could only marry someone of your own gender. That wouldn't be discrimination at all, would it? Not over a mere sexual preference.


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06 Feb 2012, 4:15 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
Metalwolf wrote:
And that using that tired 'civil rights' arguement really falls flat as gays haven't been sold as property or denied the right to vote.


They've been tortured and executed in the past, and this is still happening as we speak.

Is homosexuality in places where they are tortured and executed "as we speak" considered a crime and defined as such by the legal code under which they live?



simon_says
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06 Feb 2012, 4:22 pm

Gay rights opposition is hurting christianity. You've got a disconnect between the opinions of young people on the issue and the social cons and I think some christian orgs are getting the idea that they need to cool it on the issue.



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06 Feb 2012, 4:23 pm

AngelRho wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Metalwolf wrote:
And that using that tired 'civil rights' arguement really falls flat as gays haven't been sold as property or denied the right to vote.


They've been tortured and executed in the past, and this is still happening as we speak.

Is homosexuality in places where they are tortured and executed "as we speak" considered a crime and defined as such by the legal code under which they live?


Mostly, but occasionally it's just bigotry.

You can argue that we have no right to interfere in the laws of other countries, but when we're getting into torture and lynchings, it's a human rights issue. Homosexuality is illegal in Jamiaca, but so are murder and torture.

Anyway, that's besides my point. I was pointing out to Metalwolf that discrimination against homosexuals is very, very real.


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06 Feb 2012, 4:28 pm

Metalwolf wrote:
How can you compare a mere sexual preferance to being discriminated on concrete physical differences? And that using that tired 'civil rights' arguement really falls flat as gays haven't been sold as property or denied the right to vote.

I've tried finding them about the UK. I just can't. Not because there is a lesser amount of depression in gays there, but because they don't seem to exist, period. I'd love to see them, heck maybe they might prove me wrong. But finding actual graph statistics instead of just quotes is very hard.

Edit: This thread is also a bit boring to stay in. It was fun while it lasted, but I really meant to say just one post and be done with it. I normally stay out of gay-themed threads because I hate endless debating. So, tootles!


Skin colour, gender, sexual preference... why are any of these a better reason to discriminate than any other? It's okay to discriminate just because they like the same sex? They may be able to vote, but in many places the only right they have is to be killed.

Gay people do tend to be more depressed, because of people like yourself who see fit to belittle them and treat them as second class citizens. You wouldn't be happy if people did that to you either.

Good riddance.


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AngelRho
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06 Feb 2012, 4:32 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Metalwolf wrote:
And that using that tired 'civil rights' arguement really falls flat as gays haven't been sold as property or denied the right to vote.


They've been tortured and executed in the past, and this is still happening as we speak.

Is homosexuality in places where they are tortured and executed "as we speak" considered a crime and defined as such by the legal code under which they live?


Mostly, but occasionally it's just bigotry.

You can argue that we have no right to interfere in the laws of other countries, but when we're getting into torture and lynchings, it's a human rights issue. Homosexuality is illegal in Jamiaca, but so are murder and torture.

Anyway, that's besides my point. I was pointing out to Metalwolf that discrimination against homosexuals is very, very real.

I'm against torture, but I also might disagree on what constitutes torture and when/where it's appropriate. I don't think torture is appropriate for crime and punishment, for example. If something is illegal, either kill them or imprison them. There is no point to torture.

If a society believes something to be immoral, then society must live according to its convictions. I think we DO have the right to tell other countries what to do. I just happen to believe that homosexuality is immoral and would support societies that hold that it is a criminal activity.

I also believe that mercy is more noble than justice. Take that as you will...



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06 Feb 2012, 4:36 pm

AngelRho wrote:
If a society believes something to be immoral, then society must live according to its convictions. I think we DO have the right to tell other countries what to do. I just happen to believe that homosexuality is immoral and would support societies that hold that it is a criminal activity.
I also believe that mercy is more noble than justice. Take that as you will...


Gwah?!


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06 Feb 2012, 4:41 pm

AngelRho wrote:
I'm against torture, but I also might disagree on what constitutes torture and when/where it's appropriate. I don't think torture is appropriate for crime and punishment, for example. If something is illegal, either kill them or imprison them. There is no point to torture.

If a society believes something to be immoral, then society must live according to its convictions. I think we DO have the right to tell other countries what to do. I just happen to believe that homosexuality is immoral and would support societies that hold that it is a criminal activity.

I also believe that mercy is more noble than justice. Take that as you will...


I also believe we have the right to tell other countries what to do in some circumstances, I'm glad we are on the same sheet regarding this.

Okay:

1. You consider homosexuality immoral.
2. You support societies that uphold it as a criminal activity.

I have two questions for you:
1. The penalty for male homosexual acts in Jamaica is 10 years in prison. Do you support a society that would do this?
2. The penalty for male homosexual acts in Iran is death (method of execution decided by a judge). Boys who have gay sex underage get 74 lashes. Do you support a society that would do this?

If you answer 'yes' to any of those (even with qualifications), I'm not comfortable talking to you, and I suggest we avoid each other on the forums.


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AngelRho
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06 Feb 2012, 4:44 pm

MarsCoban wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
If a society believes something to be immoral, then society must live according to its convictions. I think we DO have the right to tell other countries what to do. I just happen to believe that homosexuality is immoral and would support societies that hold that it is a criminal activity.
I also believe that mercy is more noble than justice. Take that as you will...


Gwah?!

I believe that there are no such things as action that do not affect everyone on the planet at all in some way. The good you do benefits all people. The evil you do harms all people. A government with the means to end senseless genocide should step in, even if it's "none of your business."

I also believe that punishment should always fit the crime. Further, justice is ALWAYS deserved. Mercy (in the context of crime/punishment) is NEVER deserved. It is more noble show mercy and forgive the guilty than to relentlessly and unemotionally punish them.



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06 Feb 2012, 4:44 pm

WHAT?!?!?!?


YOU think it's immoral to be gay and so YOUR opinion is enough to completely ban it? Make it criminal?

I think bigotry is amazingly offensive, I think it should be banned, I think you should spend the next few years in prison, but guess what? That aint gonna happen unfortunately, and neither is criminalization of homosexuality.


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