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NicoleG
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 26, 2011
Age: 36
Posts: 661
Location: Dallas-Fort Worth
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 Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| artrat wrote: | | if you don't look confident |
...you usually aren't. Even autistic people will look confident when they are and not look confident when they aren't. |
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Chronos
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 23, 2010
Posts: 5231
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:46 am Post subject: Re: Why do NTs favor sociopathy over honesty?!? |
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| Fnord wrote: | | Chronos wrote: | | It is not that NT has evolved to have a preference for sociopaths, but that sociopaths have evolved to mimic traits that NTs have a preference for. |
Not just sociopaths, but any person who really wants to be employed has to learn how to tell the truth in such a way that the potential employer believes that he has heard exactly what he wanted to hear. That's called "Salesmanship". |
It's called lying. |
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Fnord
Enigmatic Threadkilling Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 17886
Location: Stendec
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| RushKing wrote: | | We could have a law that says they have to make the decision after a certain amount of time and that they can't have one if the positions are already filled up. |
Can't have one what?
Believe it or not, there are already so many laws regulating the hiring process that most corporate employers defer the process to outside agencies, and then hire someone from the top three candidates that the agency sends over.
If a person must be hired in 90 days, then what happens if no suitable candidates present themselves by that time? My current job was held open for eight and a half months before I even walked in the door. Even then, it took another two weeks before they made their final decision and hired me. Having to "settle" for some unqualified dimwit just because he shows up in the first week is not good business practice, since they would likely have had to let him go before his probationary period was up. |
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Fnord
Enigmatic Threadkilling Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 17886
Location: Stendec
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:52 am Post subject: Re: Why do NTs favor sociopathy over honesty?!? |
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| Chronos wrote: | | Fnord wrote: | | Chronos wrote: | | It is not that NT has evolved to have a preference for sociopaths, but that sociopaths have evolved to mimic traits that NTs have a preference for. |
Not just sociopaths, but any person who really wants to be employed has to learn how to tell the truth in such a way that the potential employer believes that he has heard exactly what he wanted to hear. That's called "Salesmanship". |
It's called lying. |
No, "lying" is when you tell something that isn't true. "Salesmanship" is when you tell the truth in such a way that the person hearing it agrees with you, even though the truth itself may be unpleasant. |
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Chronos
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 23, 2010
Posts: 5231
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:56 am Post subject: Re: Why do NTs favor sociopathy over honesty?!? |
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| Fnord wrote: | | Chronos wrote: | | Fnord wrote: | | Chronos wrote: | | It is not that NT has evolved to have a preference for sociopaths, but that sociopaths have evolved to mimic traits that NTs have a preference for. |
Not just sociopaths, but any person who really wants to be employed has to learn how to tell the truth in such a way that the potential employer believes that he has heard exactly what he wanted to hear. That's called "Salesmanship". |
It's called lying. |
No, "lying" is when you tell something that isn't true. "Salesmanship" is when you tell the truth in such a way that the person hearing it agrees with you, even though the truth itself may be unpleasant. |
And exactly how would you say "I'm only going to be here 2 months," in a way such that they would be agreeable to hiring one under those circumstances? |
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RushKing
Toucan
Joined: Oct 17, 2010
Posts: 299
Location: Minnesota, United States
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| Fnord wrote: | | RushKing wrote: | | We could have a law that says they have to make the decision after a certain amount of time and that they can't have one if the positions are already filled up. |
Can't have one what?
Believe it or not, there are already so many laws regulating the hiring process that most corporate employers defer the process to outside agencies, and then hire someone from the top three candidates that the agency sends over.
If a person must be hired in 90 days, then what happens if no suitable candidates present themselves by that time? My current job was held open for eight and a half months before I even walked in the door. Even then, it took another two weeks before they made their final decision and hired me. Having to "settle" for some unqualified dimwit just because he shows up in the first week is not good business practice, since they would likely have had to let him go before his probationary period was up. |
The business would not be forced to settle with a dimwit, they (Well at least how I would do it) would have shifts in each day, so they end up testing several people in a week. |
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Fnord
Enigmatic Threadkilling Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 17886
Location: Stendec
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:03 am Post subject: Re: Why do NTs favor sociopathy over honesty?!? |
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| Chronos wrote: | | Fnord wrote: | | Chronos wrote: | | Fnord wrote: | | Chronos wrote: | | It is not that NT has evolved to have a preference for sociopaths, but that sociopaths have evolved to mimic traits that NTs have a preference for. |
Not just sociopaths, but any person who really wants to be employed has to learn how to tell the truth in such a way that the potential employer believes that he has heard exactly what he wanted to hear. That's called "Salesmanship". |
It's called lying. |
No, "lying" is when you tell something that isn't true. "Salesmanship" is when you tell the truth in such a way that the person hearing it agrees with you, even though the truth itself may be unpleasant. |
And exactly how would you say "I'm only going to be here 2 months," in a way such that they would be agreeable to hiring one under those circumstances? |
"I hope this leads to a permanent arrangement."
Why would you tell them how long you're going to be there, anyway? I've never asked that of any candidate. Instead, I've asked something like, "Where do you envision yourself in five years?"
"Working in a leadership role" is always a good answer. So is "Developing my management skills".
It's a given that any candidate is likely to accept a better offer sometime in the future - it's a risk that employers take. But then it's up to the employer to make the employees want to stay, in spite of any possibly better offers that come along.
_________________
* Believing in myths allows the comfort of having an opinion without the discomfort of having to think.
* Believing that you're worthless allows the comfort of having something to complain about without the discomfort of having to change. |
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League_Girl
Proud mamma
Joined: Feb 05, 2010
Posts: 13500
Location: My house
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| I have probably been too honest when applying for work. I have found out afterwards what not to say when finding a job and I have been guilty of them all. For one, never say you need to make money. Never tell them you are pregnant and you must work to make money. Honestly I am not sure what to say on a application when applying for work. Like what do I say when they ask "why are you interested in this job?" Obviously there are right and wrong answers and I don't know what answer they are looking for. But luckily I have a job so I don't have to worry about all this and the stress. |
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Fnord
Enigmatic Threadkilling Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 17886
Location: Stendec
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| RushKing wrote: | | The business would not be forced to settle with a dimwit, they (Well at least how I would do it) would have shifts in each day, so they end up testing several people in a week. |
That's how it's done already - we interview and test as many as five people in one day, for as often as four days a week. That's 20 potential candidates each week for each position. With 6 weeks to winnow the crop down to the top candidate, that's 120 people to choose from.
Sometimes, we'll take on the top three candidates, knowing that in 90 days two of them will have to go, leaving us with the best person for the job.
And yes, ability to get along with others plays a very important role in the probationary process.
Last edited by Fnord on Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fnord
Enigmatic Threadkilling Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 17886
Location: Stendec
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| League_Girl wrote: | | ... what do I say when they ask "why are you interested in this job?" Obviously there are right and wrong answers and I don't know what answer they are looking for... |
"It's an opportunity to expand my horizons and test my limits" is a good response. So is, "This company seems to have an effective growth environment". |
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NicoleG
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 26, 2011
Age: 36
Posts: 661
Location: Dallas-Fort Worth
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| League_Girl wrote: | | I have probably been too honest when applying for work. I have found out afterwards what not to say when finding a job and I have been guilty of them all. For one, never say you need to make money. Never tell them you are pregnant and you must work to make money. Honestly I am not sure what to say on a application when applying for work. Like what do I say when they ask "why are you interested in this job?" Obviously there are right and wrong answers and I don't know what answer they are looking for. But luckily I have a job so I don't have to worry about all this and the stress. |
"Why are you interested in this job," is a different question from, "Why are you going into the work force."
The latter has an answer usually regarding time and money. The former has an answer about merits regarding the job itself. An easy way to think of answers for it is to compare in your mind this job with another job or compare this job with the same job at a different company. Why would you prefer this job over another job, or this job here versus the same job at another company. You want to be able to think of qualitative answers. |
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Chronos
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 23, 2010
Posts: 5231
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:52 am Post subject: Re: Why do NTs favor sociopathy over honesty?!? |
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| Fnord wrote: | | Chronos wrote: | | Fnord wrote: | | Chronos wrote: | | Fnord wrote: | | Chronos wrote: | | It is not that NT has evolved to have a preference for sociopaths, but that sociopaths have evolved to mimic traits that NTs have a preference for. |
Not just sociopaths, but any person who really wants to be employed has to learn how to tell the truth in such a way that the potential employer believes that he has heard exactly what he wanted to hear. That's called "Salesmanship". |
It's called lying. |
No, "lying" is when you tell something that isn't true. "Salesmanship" is when you tell the truth in such a way that the person hearing it agrees with you, even though the truth itself may be unpleasant. |
And exactly how would you say "I'm only going to be here 2 months," in a way such that they would be agreeable to hiring one under those circumstances? |
"I hope this leads to a permanent arrangement."
Why would you tell them how long you're going to be there, anyway? I've never asked that of any candidate. Instead, I've asked something like, "Where do you envision yourself in five years?"
"Working in a leadership role" is always a good answer. So is "Developing my management skills".
It's a given that any candidate is likely to accept a better offer sometime in the future - it's a risk that employers take. But then it's up to the employer to make the employees want to stay, in spite of any possibly better offers that come along. |
I've always been asked how long I intend to be there. |
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so_subtly_strange
Toucan
Joined: Jan 18, 2011
Age: 26
Posts: 293
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:57 am Post subject: Re: Why do NTs favor sociopathy over honesty?!? |
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| RushKing wrote: | Why do I need to be a sociopath to get a job?
Why does corporate America keep shooting itself in the foot?
Don't they realize how ineffective job interviews are?
Why can't they value honesty?
Am I a weirdo who doesn't deserve employment because I am uncomfortable at acting and lying through bullshit questions? |
I feel you 100%. I have never gotten a job where i didn't know someone, or had a recommendation of some sort. If i am left to my devices in an interview i fall short of whatever they are looking for. Gas stations jobs asside, they dont really interview for those. They just ask you when can you start, and cross their fingers you aren't a junkie.
I was just thinking wouldn't it be satisfying to turn it on their heads, run NTs through interviews by autists? Only their actual words would count, and the functional relevance of their responses. The ability to BS and 'be engaging' would count for nothing.
Not meaning to be bitter, it would just be interesting, and it is frustrating that interviews rarely have anything to do with ability to do the job you are being interviewed for. I think it would make far more sense to put more weight on some sort of actual test to prove you could do a certain kind of work. NOT a personality test. Obviously your not going to know everything before training but its something that would evolve. Initially the results of a test would be interpreted intuitively, but as a business has been around for a while, it could overlay, how did people who ended up being good employees preform on the original test? and the test could be constantly revised to be more useful for indicating what they are looking for |
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League_Girl
Proud mamma
Joined: Feb 05, 2010
Posts: 13500
Location: My house
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| NicoleG wrote: | | League_Girl wrote: | | I have probably been too honest when applying for work. I have found out afterwards what not to say when finding a job and I have been guilty of them all. For one, never say you need to make money. Never tell them you are pregnant and you must work to make money. Honestly I am not sure what to say on a application when applying for work. Like what do I say when they ask "why are you interested in this job?" Obviously there are right and wrong answers and I don't know what answer they are looking for. But luckily I have a job so I don't have to worry about all this and the stress. |
"Why are you interested in this job," is a different question from, "Why are you going into the work force."
The latter has an answer usually regarding time and money. The former has an answer about merits regarding the job itself. An easy way to think of answers for it is to compare in your mind this job with another job or compare this job with the same job at a different company. Why would you prefer this job over another job, or this job here versus the same job at another company. You want to be able to think of qualitative answers. |
They both sound the same to me because my answers would still be the same to either one. I mean you can say the same thing in different ways. |
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CockneyRebel
Mick Avory, Sensitive brown-eyed Sweet Pea
Joined: Jul 18, 2004
Age: 38
Posts: 87203
Location: In a quiet and peaceful garden, where gentle Mick Avory-like Sweet Peas grow.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:40 am Post subject: |
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Edit:
Oh, this is about jobs and looking for a job. I was applying for a job at Value Village just before Christmas. The manager asked me if I had experience with cash or customer service. I answered no for both questions, because I like to be honest. I should have told her that though I didn't have experience on cash, that I had experience with customer service and than I would have gotten a job there. If I could walk into a time machine, I'd tell them that I have experience with customer service and I had a Work Experience in that store in the 90s. Why didn't I do that?
_________________
The darling, unworldly Mick Avory with hands like shovels, who wouldn't dare choose to hurt a soul: I'm the cuddly, adorable Kink. Sweet Peas: http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j37/Cocknee/Kinks/Sweet%20Pea%20Smileys/ Other: http://www.mybrowsercash.com/ |
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