marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Posts: 9228
Location: Western Michigan
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 Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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Really, all it shows is that in some places (actually a lot of places) there are huge social problems that can't be fixed with "more freedom". Freedom is quite the meaningless concept when you have to live in a slum scavenging through garbage and selling scrap metal for food. But at least they aren't being forced by evil government to buy into socialized medicine. Well, in the US you might get beaten up and arrested by the cops for dumpster diving or erecting a shanty on public or private property. So I guess they're more free in that regard.  |
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Vexcalibur
Proud to be smug as heck
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Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Posts: 5379
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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Go to India, get a car and try driving, you will experience how things look like when government isn't regulating anything.
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Jacoby
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 11, 2007
Posts: 4025
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| The most horrific crimes ever committed have been committed by big government. |
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VIDEODROME
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 21, 2008
Age: 36
Posts: 1700
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:47 am Post subject: |
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Well I lean libertarian and want a smaller Federal government.
Yet I also think a lot of the power to create domestic regulations should go to the states and the governors. The states created the Federal government and I don't think it was intended to usurp so much state power.
So for example someone mentioned regulating the roads. No I don't think that is the job of the Federal government. That authority belongs to State Legislatures and Governors. If back in the day Nevada wanted to remove speed restrictions on long desert highways that should be under their authority.
As for people rights hasn't the Federal Government often been the enemy as well when you look at the long struggle of Labor Unions? It seemed like they would chose the side of their corporate campaign backers and try to break strikes.
I think most domestic power should be local to the people it's governing. |
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CrazyCatLord
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 25, 2011
Posts: 2177
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| Jacoby wrote: | | The most horrific crimes ever committed have been committed by big government. |
You mean by authoritarian big governments. There are plenty of so-called big governments that don't oppress their citizens, unless you count "you don't get to exploit und underpay your workers or poison the environment" as oppression.
Btw, I would put this on the list of the most horrific crimes ever committed:
Those are the victims of the Triangle Shirtwaist factory fire, who were forced to jump to their deaths as the result of insufficient government regulation and unbridled capitalism.
The Bhopal gas tragedy is another point for the list, and another example of what happens when you let the market and industry regulate themselves:
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CoMF
Deinonychus
Joined: Feb 08, 2012
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:14 am Post subject: |
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I'll never understand why self-styled leftists always equate libertarianism with giving carte blanche to the wealthy elite to do whatever they want with impunity.
Guess they've never heard of the Non-Agression Principle.
Edited to Add: Also, have they ever entertained the possibility that, through their relationship with the state, the wealthy elite perpetuate the abuse of those of lesser means?
What good are "regulations" when you essentially have the foxes guarding the chickens? |
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CrazyCatLord
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 25, 2011
Posts: 2177
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| CoMF wrote: | | Guess they've never heard of the Non-Agression Principle. |
Where exactly would the non-aggression principle come in in case of the Bhopal disaster? Would the company be punished for killing nearly 3,800 people after the incident? Or would you rather legislate work safety regulations (danger! Big government!) to prevent something like this from happening in the first place?
| Quote: | Edited to Add: Also, have they ever entertained the possibility that, through their relationship with the state, the wealthy elite perpetuate the abuse of those of lesser means?
What good are "regulations" when you essentially have the foxes guarding the chickens? |
I don't see that happening where I live. I think the trick is not to legalize bribery in form of massive corporate campaign contributions. |
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CoMF
Deinonychus
Joined: Feb 08, 2012
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | Where exactly would the non-aggression principle come in in case of the Bhopal disaster? Would the company be punished for killing nearly 3,800 people after the incident? |
Short answer, yes. They would've been required to pay compensatory damages in the form of tort claims just as they have already done. Do your homework.
| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | Or would you rather legislate work safety regulations (danger! Big government!) to prevent something like this from happening in the first place? |
There were safety regulations and engineering standards already in place, and they were largely ignored. What do you propose? Assigning a government-appointed babysitter to each and every manufacturing plant in the world?
| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | I don't see that happening where I live. I think the trick is not to legalize bribery in form of massive corporate campaign contributions. |
Well, at least you grasp the hazards of that... Unfortunately, when you have nanny state acting as protector of the public, you're going to risk that happening. Why else would a former Monsanto Corporation lobbyist now be the effective head of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration? Mind you, this is the same FDA who was asleep as the wheel during the SB Pharmco Puerto Rico debacle.
Knee-jerk responses like "we need more government regulation" do nothing to address the factors that lead up to disasters like UCIL, especially when you take into consideration the fact that the company was in part publicly owned by the government of India.
Again, do your homework.
Last edited by CoMF on Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:21 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1657
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| CoMF wrote: | | I'll never understand why self-styled leftists always equate libertarianism with giving carte blanche to the wealthy elite to do whatever they want with impunity. |
Money is power. People who have more money have more power. They don't need to use the state as a tool, but they'll use it if it's available. If the state is tiny, they'll just use their power more directly.
The core of leftism isn't big government. The core of leftism is to reduce the power of the people who have most of the power. Government can help us to do this. |
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CoMF
Deinonychus
Joined: Feb 08, 2012
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| Declension wrote: | | The core of leftism isn't big government. The core of leftism is to reduce the power of the people who have most of the power. Government can help us to do this. |
But doesn't such a statement diminish the signifigance of "common" people like you and me? |
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Jacoby
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 11, 2007
Posts: 4025
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | Jacoby wrote: | | The most horrific crimes ever committed have been committed by big government. |
You mean by authoritarian big governments. There are plenty of so-called big governments that don't oppress their citizens, unless you count "you don't get to exploit und underpay your workers or poison the environment" as oppression.
Btw, I would put this on the list of the most horrific crimes ever committed:
Those are the victims of the Triangle Shirtwaist factory fire, who were forced to jump to their deaths as the result of insufficient government regulation and unbridled capitalism.
The Bhopal gas tragedy is another point for the list, and another example of what happens when you let the market and industry regulate themselves:
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As bad as those are, I'd take those unfortunate accidents over the deliberate slaughter of millions. I won't bother posting pictures, you can visit those death camps made by your country and see for yourself. |
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LKL
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Age: 37
Posts: 5693
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:04 am Post subject: |
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wrt. 'compensation' for the Bhopal tragedy (note that the victims themselves cannot possibly receive any compensation, as they are dead):
Dow has wriggled and weasled at every step to get out of compensating the victims of the tragedy adequately.
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-12-03/news/30471807_1_gas-tragedy-union-carbide-india-limited-bhopal-victims
| Quote: | NEW DELHI: Dow Chemicals, which owns Union Carbide since 2001, has opposed in the Supreme Court the petition filed by the Centre for enhancement of compensation from Rs 750 crore to Rs 7,700 crore for the victims of 1984 Bhopal gas tragedy, the world's worst industrial disaster.
In an affidavit, Dow Chemicals has said it will not pay more compensation for Bhopal victims as the settlement reached in 1989 for USD 470 million was more than adequate and fair. |
http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/2011/Dec/6/bhopal-gas-tragedy-kashmiri-victim-awaits-compensation-48.asp
quote:
| Quote: | Bapora (Bandipore), Dec 5: The lone Bhopal Gas tragedy victim from Jammu and Kashmir has been awaiting compensation for the past 27-years.
Then an army officer Ghulam Muhammad Wani of Bapora Arin lost his kidney after inhaling the poisonous gas, which left hundreds dead and thousands disabled, on December 2, 1984. |
Maybe they'll just wait for him to die too, eh?
see also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster
when Chinese industrialists put melamine in dog and cat food, it caused the deaths of hundreds of animals... and yet, the next year, industrialists in the same country put melamine into baby formula. It killed or caused the hospitalization of hundreds of human infants, in a country where people are only allowed to have one child. Do you think those parents were comforted by the fact that some of the industrialists subsequently were executed or imprisoned, or do you think that they wish there was enough government oversight to have prevented their children's pain, organ failure, and/or deaths?
Liberals regulate before children die; libertarians compensate (inadequately) afterward, IF the victims have enough social, political, and/or economic clout, and IF there's a public hue and cry. |
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LKL
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Age: 37
Posts: 5693
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| Jacoby wrote: | | As bad as those are, I'd take those unfortunate accidents over the deliberate slaughter of millions. I won't bother posting pictures, you can visit those death camps made by your country and see for yourself. |
Numerically, deaths caused in war - even in the holocaust - pale beside the everyday attrition of poverty, poor health care, inadequate sanitation, lack of clean water, deliberate industrial environmental pollution, and starvation. |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26053
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| TeaEarlGreyHot wrote: | | Y'all do realize Libertarian is a very broad scope, right? It encompasses everything from near Anarchism to what's essentially a Republican that's socially liberal. |
Indeed - some mild libertatrians just want a smaller welfare state, but they don't want to abolish it completely. They just want it to be far more effective for those that do need help and assistance.
It's correct to say that libertarianism is extremely broad, and many libertarians would be completely alienated by other kinds of libertarianism. |
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johansen
Deinonychus
Joined: May 16, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 321
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As bad as those are, I'd take those unfortunate accidents over the deliberate slaughter of millions. I won't bother posting pictures, you can visit those death camps made by your country and see for yourself. |
as would I
5/6ths of the world is alive today thanks to the chemical industry, and it has a surprisingly high safety record. far better than the early death associated with many other basic industries your standard of living depends on.
The fact of the matter is, China, India and the like find the risk (of letting big buisness in, 14 hour days labor, etc, etc) To Be Acceptable.
Americans find the fact that their women hit puberty at age 12 thanks to hormones in the food to be acceptable. its the same thing, just different orders of magnitude. |
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