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Phoenix
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 Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:00 am Post subject: |
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I actually do know what you're saying but I don't think gay bars and clubs have anything to do with it. That's just an escape, an easy place where you don't have to pretend and deal with being the gay/weird/odd/outsider person there.
I feel the same way about people who define themselves by politics-straight liberals, gay liberals, straight conservatives, whatever. Enough is enough and too much is nasty.
So yes, there are some gay people who talk about it incessantly and want to relate everything to they back to being gay (along with people who do the same thing with a diagnosis they might have or any other kind of label).
IME they're usually young and have something to prove, sometimes you see it with the older set and in this case it can be incredibly annoying.
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ReindeerRoger
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So yes, there are some gay people who talk about it incessantly and want to relate everything to they back to being gay (along with people who do the same thing with a diagnosis they might have or any other kind of label). |
Well, in my case being queer has sort-of become a (alongside other things) defining element of my personality. It has had the affect of booting me out of a normal existence, and causing me to experience growing up and learning about things from the perspective of an outsider . . . the end effect is that I see flaws and imperfections in structures, systems, institutions etc. that are the direct consequence of their ommissions of queer experiences.
But since normalcy and the moralities and mainstream judgmentalisms of others are based in no essentialist, superior logic anyways, this does not bother me. So long as my freedoms or agency isn't under threat and I am not discriminated against, again, I give no shits. This is how I see the world differently, and my existence has been affected, though not defined, by my gayness/queerness.
But anyways, if I relate alot of things to my gayness it's because it touches on human rights, identity, constructivism, queerness, and simply because I have no qualms about talking of my gayness. It's related to alot of discussions. Particularly the ones I bring the subject up in, such as ones about personal experiences, relationships, criticizing things, or stuff that's been going on in my life lately. I don't really care if my bringing the topic up makes people think less of me or makes other people uncomfortable.
There's a substantial difference between the way gay people who integrate into their surroundings and ones who challenge their surroundings are perceived and treated though. And I think this explains the intolerance for outwardly gay people and gay people into talking about gay stuff or politics or who flirt with others or criticize religion etc . . . gay people who act normal can integrate frictionlessly into their surroundings, while gay people such as myself do not. Alot of people don't like me or the way I act around others. Whatever. |
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Phoenix
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| ReindeerRoger wrote: | | Quote: | | So yes, there are some gay people who talk about it incessantly and want to relate everything to they back to being gay (along with people who do the same thing with a diagnosis they might have or any other kind of label). |
Well, in my case being queer has sort-of become a (alongside other things) defining element of my personality. It has had the affect of booting me out of a normal existence, and causing me to experience growing up and learning about things from the perspective of an outsider . . . the end effect is that I see flaws and imperfections in structures, systems, institutions etc. that are the direct consequence of their ommissions of queer experiences.
But since normalcy and the moralities and mainstream judgmentalisms of others are based in no essentialist, superior logic anyways, this does not bother me. So long as my freedoms or agency isn't under threat and I am not discriminated against, again, I give no shits. This is how I see the world differently, and my existence has been affected, though not defined, by my gayness/queerness.
But anyways, if I relate alot of things to my gayness it's because it touches on human rights, identity, constructivism, queerness, and simply because I have no qualms about talking of my gayness. It's related to alot of discussions. Particularly the ones I bring the subject up in, such as ones about personal experiences, relationships, criticizing things, or stuff that's been going on in my life lately. I don't really care if my bringing the topic up makes people think less of me or makes other people uncomfortable.
There's a substantial difference between the way gay people who integrate into their surroundings and ones who challenge their surroundings are perceived and treated though. And I think this explains the intolerance for outwardly gay people and gay people into talking about gay stuff or politics or who flirt with others or criticize religion etc . . . gay people who act normal can integrate frictionlessly into their surroundings, while gay people such as myself do not. Alot of people don't like me or the way I act around others. Whatever. |
I really think you believe the people who treat you badly or don't like you are doing so because you're "too gay". I can almost promise you it's not the case.
People are annoyed by this behavior from anyone who uses any kind of label to define themselves and speaks incessantly about it in nearly every situation. If they don't seem like it, they're probably just being nice.
Nobody said you have no right to be annoying.
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ReindeerRoger
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I really think you believe the people who treat you badly or don't like you are doing so because you're "too gay". I can almost promise you it's not the case.
People are annoyed by this behavior from anyone who uses any kind of label to define themselves and speaks incessantly about it in nearly every situation. If they don't seem like it, they're probably just being nice.
Nobody said you have no right to be annoying. |
I don't really bring it up that much. But there most certainly isn't any good reason I shouldn't bring it up. Indeed it's those situations where bringing it up makes people most uncomfortable that are the most worthwhile to broach the topic in, since that's a sure sign of intolerance that should be exposed.
It's in those areas that I feel most welcome that I have no purpose aside from offhand references to daily happenings to bring it up.
Very often I am not bringing up 'my identity/sexuality', as you say, but merely bringing up things that by extension let-on that I'm not hetero-normative. I wouldn't feel comfortable saying any less, because the end effect would be uncomfortably repressive and closeted. And unnecessarily so.
When I bring up topics, I just say the stuff that is relevant. Not to annoy people, not to threaten them. It's up for other people to decide whether things are 'annoying', but indeed the word 'annoying' suggests that people dislike something but have no justified reason to. And thusly I give no shits.
People don't treat me badly because I don't tolerate being treated badly. But if I were closeted and blended into the background as others would prefer, I could very easily be treated badly and noone would notice. |
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Phoenix
Joined: Oct 21, 2011
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| ReindeerRoger wrote: | | Quote: | I really think you believe the people who treat you badly or don't like you are doing so because you're "too gay". I can almost promise you it's not the case.
People are annoyed by this behavior from anyone who uses any kind of label to define themselves and speaks incessantly about it in nearly every situation. If they don't seem like it, they're probably just being nice.
Nobody said you have no right to be annoying. |
I don't really bring it up that much. But there most certainly isn't any good reason I shouldn't bring it up. Indeed it's those situations where bringing it up makes people most uncomfortable that are the most worthwhile to broach the topic in, since that's a sure sign of intolerance that should be exposed.
It's in those areas that I feel most welcome that I have no purpose aside from offhand references to daily happenings to bring it up.
Very often I am not bringing up 'my identity/sexuality', as you say, but merely bringing up things that by extension let-on that I'm not hetero-normative. I wouldn't feel comfortable saying any less, because the end effect would be uncomfortably repressive and closeted. And unnecessarily so.
When I bring up topics, I just say the stuff that is relevant. Not to annoy people, not to threaten them. It's up for other people to decide whether things are 'annoying', but indeed the word 'annoying' suggests that people dislike something but have no justified reason to. And thusly I give no shits.
People don't treat me badly because I don't tolerate being treated badly. But if I were closeted and blended into the background as others would prefer, I could very easily be treated badly and noone would notice. |
*shrug*
You really don't have to give shits. Nobody's going to make you.
I responded to the OP because I understand where they're coming from to some extent. I' m not closeted in all areas of life but I don't tell people who don't need to know about my sexuality.
Do I care about the details of everyone elses' personal lives, politics, mental health diagnoses, etc? No, no I do not. I love it when people are able to have an identity seperate from these things, and that is why I return the favor by limiting the amount of information that I share about myself.
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ReindeerRoger
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Joined: Feb 19, 2012
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Do I care about the details of everyone elses' personal lives, politics, mental health diagnoses, etc? No, no I do not. I love it when people are able to have an identity seperate from these things, and that is why I return the favor by limiting the amount of information that I share about myself. |
Who are you apart from your personal life, politics, or mental state? Do you talk about anything at all?
My guess is that you spend alot of time defining yourself against other people -- what you are not -- and see this 'non-identity', 'non-politics' etc. as outside of identity and politics. But the end effect is of enforcing a certain standard of 'normalcy' in these areas that affects others. Other people have to work harder to exist as themselves amongst others . . . queerness in a nutshell.
Also, for straight people, 'personal lives' means a limited number of highly sexual or un-professional passtimes. For gay people, their entire life in respect to relationships or things related to gayness they might do are classified as 'personal'. The personal life/private life distinction, though thought of as like, 'common sense', and 'harmless', is actually fairly repressive and inequal. So I don't give many shits for that either.
Last edited by ReindeerRoger on Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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hanyo
Phoenix
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Posts: 3453
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:46 am Post subject: |
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What does define your personality?
I don't mean any specific you, I mean you as people in general. |
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ReindeerRoger
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:58 am Post subject: |
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Here's wikipedia's definition:
"Personality is the particular combination of emotional, attitudinal, and behavioral response patterns of an individual."
(more detailed)
"1. A set of qualities that make a person (or thing) distinct from another.
2. An assumed role or manner of behavior.
. . .
4. Charisma, or qualities that make a person stand out from the crowd."
These ones are neat because they show that personality is in response to people, as perceived by people, and defined by difference.
Here's my question:
Isn't disliking people who are too gay sort-of like disliking gayness? Or at least intolerant or repressive of gayness?
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Phoenix
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ReindeerRoger wrote: | | Quote: | | Do I care about the details of everyone elses' personal lives, politics, mental health diagnoses, etc? No, no I do not. I love it when people are able to have an identity seperate from these things, and that is why I return the favor by limiting the amount of information that I share about myself. |
Who are you apart from your personal life, politics, or mental state? Do you talk about anything at all?
My guess is that you spend alot of time defining yourself against other people -- what you are not -- and see this 'non-identity', 'non-politics' etc. as outside of identity and politics. But the end effect is of enforcing a certain standard of 'normalcy' in these areas that affects others. Other people have to work harder to exist as themselves amongst others . . . queerness in a nutshell.
Also, for straight people, 'personal lives' means a limited number of highly sexual or un-professional passtimes. For gay people, their entire life in respect to relationships or things related to gayness they might do are classified as 'personal'. The personal life/private life distinction, though thought of as like, 'common sense', and 'harmless', is actually fairly repressive and inequal. So I don't give many shits for that either. |
I've always been known for being "weird' so I don't really know what others think defines me. I get all kinds of descriptions.
Personally, I just don't feel attached to anything. My interests change frequently and the people I talk to change along with them.
If I weren't actually gay I wouldn't feel attached to that either but it seems to be the one area in life where I'm stuck in concrete ground. I tried not to be and did the bi thing for years. It would fit my personality better but it's not my orientation.
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Phoenix
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| ReindeerRoger wrote: | Here's wikipedia's definition:
"Personality is the particular combination of emotional, attitudinal, and behavioral response patterns of an individual."
Here's my question:
Isn't disliking people who are too gay sort-of like disliking gayness? Or at least intolerant or repressive of gayness? |
Sure, it's like disliking gayness in the sense that the person who is being disliked is gay.
But the fact that the person who displays this behavior refuses to believe that people might dislike them for any other reason proves my point.
I'm sure you're liked among your group of friends, so why does it matter?
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ReindeerRoger
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But the fact that the person who displays this behavior refuses to believe that people might dislike them for any other reason proves my point. |
I'm against people being irrationally and harmfully judgemental, intolerant, and repressive, period. Irrationally/harmfully so towards anything, not just gayness. But gayness is an area where people being irrationally judgemental and oppressive is a major problem. I don't care as much about whether I'm liked or not. |
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Phoenix
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| ReindeerRoger wrote: | | Quote: | | But the fact that the person who displays this behavior refuses to believe that people might dislike them for any other reason proves my point. |
I'm against people being irrationally and harmfully judgemental, intolerant, and repressive, period. Irrationally/harmfully so towards anything, not just gayness. But gayness is an area where people being irrationally judgemental and oppressive is a major problem. I don't care as much about whether I'm liked or not. |
This is like saying anything a person does that could be perceived as annoying or even wrong should be excused because the person is gay(or handicapped, old, black, female, mentally ill, etc).
There's nothing wrong with policing discrimination when it's actually targeted at you but trying to to use your oppressed minority status as a platform for martyrdom is a seperate issue.
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ReindeerRoger
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | This is like saying anything a person does that could be perceived as annoying or even wrong should be excused because the person is gay(or handicapped, old, black, female, mentally ill, etc).
There's nothing wrong with policing discrimination when it's actually targeted at you but trying to to use your oppressed minority status as a platform for martyrdom is a seperate issue. |
Well, martyrdom is rather severe, like a life or death thing. The oppression I'm talking about is more subtle, pervasive, systematic, etc. But it is a big deal, largely because it's so irrational, and unquestioned. And generally I only bother to criticize it when it's brought up by others and presented as rational.
People being annoying is excused. There is nothing wrong with a person being annoying, that's all contained in the use of the word 'annoying', otherwise you'd use something more severe. But anyways, I said irrational judgementalism. If people are actually doing something wrong (not just annoying) than that's a different circumstance. But being 'too gay' is not wrong.
If it seems like I'm being petty, or that this bothers me a bit too much, it's probably because you see your outlook as harmless, and your own business. But the exact same attitude of a rejection of people who are 'too gay', too whatever is a major and divisive issue within queer communities. And it prettymuch amounts to an internalized homophobia that's as damaging as homophobia from outside sources. Irrational intolerance of other things can be as harmful.
Just be tolerant! And think twice before judging others. Then you're all good. |
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Phoenix
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ReindeerRoger wrote: | | Quote: | This is like saying anything a person does that could be perceived as annoying or even wrong should be excused because the person is gay(or handicapped, old, black, female, mentally ill, etc).
There's nothing wrong with policing discrimination when it's actually targeted at you but trying to to use your oppressed minority status as a platform for martyrdom is a seperate issue. |
Well, martyrdom is rather severe, like a life or death thing. The oppression I'm talking about is more subtle, pervasive, systematic, etc. But it is a big deal, largely because it's so irrational, and unquestioned. And generally I only bother to criticize it when it's brought up by others and presented as rational.
People being annoying is excused. There is nothing wrong with a person being annoying, that's all contained in the use of the word 'annoying', otherwise you'd use something more severe. But anyways, I said irrational judgementalism. If people are actually doing something wrong (not just annoying) than that's a different circumstance. But being 'too gay' is not wrong.
If it seems like I'm being petty, or that this bothers me a bit too much, it's probably because you see your outlook as harmless, and your own business. But the exact same attitude of a rejection of people who are 'too gay', too whatever is a major and divisive issue within queer communities. And it prettymuch amounts to an internalized homophobia that's as damaging as homophobia from outside sources. Irrational intolerance of other things can be as harmful.
Just be tolerant! And think twice before judging others. Then you're all good. |
I'm old enough to know that I don't have to be tolerant of people if they don't deserve it. What's wrong with judging others if they're putting themselves out there to be judged?
That said, I wouldn't actually judge someone for something that they absolutely cannot change like sexual orientation or race and I think that's extremely hurtful, but I see no reason why behaviors that can be adjusted and score at least a 7 on a ten scale of "WTF" should go unnoticed. Not talking about you at all here, just in everyday life.
I examine behaviors in myself the same way, I don't embrace everything about another person just because that's "nice" to do and I don't expect the same.
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Sweetleaf
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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People like to express themselves I guess, though I think sometimes people can get a little bit carried away with that sort of thing. For instance and I realise this is not really comparable but I deeply enjoy heavy metal music to the point of considering myself a metalhead but I don't make everything about metal because I figure that might annoy people.
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