Born-again christian with doubts
Oodain
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Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Male
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Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,
22 Feb 2012, 11:34 pm
Saying that you will only accept proven science is like saying that you will only accept green emotions. The word doesn't apply.
Okay, terminology is tricky.... before a hypothesis is made, initial thought exists that can lead to a belief.
no it leaves to a testable hypothesis, not belief.
its the test that decides if it is believable, not to be confused with faith.
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//through chaos comes complexity//
the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.
22 Feb 2012, 11:41 pm
Faith comes before proof, and continues in its absence.
Belief comes after proof, and even then it is suspect.
In all science, error precedes the truth. In religion, it's the other way around.
22 Feb 2012, 11:43 pm
From what I've learned, science is observing nature and when we can't see some force, we can observe its interaction of influence on something else, thus, we know it's there. Gravity, black holes, time and dark matter are some examples. We might not be able to see these things but we can see their influence on other things that they encompass or is nearby.
No, we can't see gravity but we know it exists because we can feel its influence on us, when we drop something, when we leave the gravitational confines of earth, how much something weighs on a planetary body smaller or greater than that of earth. Today, I literally saw radiation. I thought it was some force that you couldn't see. You totally can with some special paper or film coated with a special oil or liquid. I don't really remember the details right now but the point is, you can't see it, yet it's there. We feel its effect on things.
Scientists use the scientific method to prove or disprove a hypothesis. Sometimes, it's my understanding they will actually be excited when an experiment fails and it's back to the drawing board. That sounds wonderful to me! Religion's beliefs are based upon what's been written, transcribed, translated, passed down, lost, found, retranslated, reinterpreted over and over again until the meaning is lost entirely. For all we know, the passages in the bible (see, I didn't capitalize that) were just parables to help guide - maybe as stories that if you read, you're supposed to think, "gee, I don't like how they're treating women. I'll treat women in my life better" or something along those lines.
Also, I should note that in Sunday school, some of the books of the bible weren't written in Christ's life but decades, sometimes centuries after he died. That always sat kind of wrong with me.
In Exodus, God sent the 7 plagues on everyone in Egypt. Everyone was afflicted with these burdens and curses except the king. What did the people of Egypt do to deserve this? It was the king who wouldn't free the Hebrews.
I think I may have figured out prayer: It's like talking out your problems aloud. If you hear them instead of thinking about them. It's like being able to help others while having the same problem yourself. I can talk someone through something but I might not be able to willing to do the thing myself. I'm trying to think of a hobby or something where this would be applicable. I'm drawing a blank. It's not that you're receiving instruction through some divine presence but you're doing the thinking, you're doing the work yourself. Could be too the more you think about something, the clearer will be the answer. That could be it, too.
I'm changing my major in school next week to biology or something in the sciences. I want to do something that matters, something with my brain where I can make a difference where God isn't involved.
22 Feb 2012, 11:45 pm
a. Absence of proof, while not proof of absence, is sufficient cause for reasonable doubt.
b. Faith is the belief in unprovable claims.
: : It is reasonable to doubt any and all faith-based claims.
I agree.
I think I wrote about doubt being normal in my second post on this thread.
But in science, they don't refer to initial scientific ideas as "faith", so what is it before a hypothesis is made?....just a proposed idea?, but that doesn't mean it's wrong, and it may or may not be provable.
And thank you, I'll borrow that > "absence of proof is not proof of absence".
22 Feb 2012, 11:45 pm
Belief plays no part in science, on my view of science.
Science is the art of constructing theories, figuring out what observations would falsify them, and attempting to produce such observations.
On a secondary level, science is the art of combining theories into larger theories.
23 Feb 2012, 12:03 am
Belief plays no part in science, on my view of science.
I like abstract concepts and the unknown.
On a secondary level, science is the art of combining theories into larger theories.
that is a beautiful thought.
23 Feb 2012, 12:04 am
No, we can't see gravity but we know it exists because we can feel its influence on us, when we drop something, when we leave the gravitational confines of earth, how much something weighs on a planetary body smaller or greater than that of earth. Today, I literally saw radiation. I thought it was some force that you couldn't see. You totally can with some special paper or film coated with a special oil or liquid. I don't really remember the details right now but the point is, you can't see it, yet it's there. We feel its effect on things.
Scientists use the scientific method to prove or disprove a hypothesis. Sometimes, it's my understanding they will actually be excited when an experiment fails and it's back to the drawing board. That sounds wonderful to me! Religion's beliefs are based upon what's been written, transcribed, translated, passed down, lost, found, retranslated, reinterpreted over and over again until the meaning is lost entirely. For all we know, the passages in the bible (see, I didn't capitalize that) were just parables to help guide - maybe as stories that if you read, you're supposed to think, "gee, I don't like how they're treating women. I'll treat women in my life better" or something along those lines.
Also, I should note that in Sunday school, some of the books of the bible weren't written in Christ's life but decades, sometimes centuries after he died. That always sat kind of wrong with me.
In Exodus, God sent the 7 plagues on everyone in Egypt. Everyone was afflicted with these burdens and curses except the king. What did the people of Egypt do to deserve this? It was the king who wouldn't free the Hebrews.
I think I may have figured out prayer: It's like talking out your problems aloud. If you hear them instead of thinking about them. It's like being able to help others while having the same problem yourself. I can talk someone through something but I might not be able to willing to do the thing myself. I'm trying to think of a hobby or something where this would be applicable. I'm drawing a blank. It's not that you're receiving instruction through some divine presence but you're doing the thinking, you're doing the work yourself. Could be too the more you think about something, the clearer will be the answer. That could be it, too.
I'm changing my major in school next week to biology or something in the sciences. I want to do something that matters, something with my brain where I can make a difference where God isn't involved.
It sounds like you actually have a pretty good grasp of what science is. Most scientists are people who really love the world and are deeply curious, so if you pick a science major, go for what you love and want to know more about. You'll need 1/2 year to 1 year of biology, physics, and chemistry regardless of what actual science major you pick, so you might even wait until you've had all 3 before you decide (assuming that you haven't had them yet).
23 Feb 2012, 12:18 am
A few notworthy definitions of Science by scientists...
"In essence, science is a perpetual search for an intelligent and integrated comprehension of the world we live in." -- Cornelius Bernardus Van Neil (1897- ) U. S. microbiologist
"Science is a series of judgments, revised without ceasing." -- Pierre Emile Duclaux (1840-1904) French biochemist, bacteriologist
"Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge." -- Carl Sagan
"Science is all those things which are confirmed to such a degree that it would be unreasonable to withhold one's provisional consent." -- Stephen Jay Gould
"Science is merely an extremely powerful method of winnowing what's true from what feels good." -- Carl Sagan.
"Science is not belief, but the will to find out." -- Anonymous
"Science is the desire to know causes." -- William Hazlitt (1778-1830) English essayist
... and finally ...
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not “Eureka” but “That's funny...” -- Isaac Asimov
Kraichgauer
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Posts: 47,794
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
23 Feb 2012, 12:30 am
Just spend half the day watching Carl Sagan and stuff about critical thinking and this guy named Richard Hawkins on YouTube. Very enlightening.
Congrats. You're now a free man.
Now's the time to really practice your critical skills even when it comes to secular material. Never believe every word you read. Always cross and double check.
For example, some atheists might blindly believe the Jesus sun god theory without bothering to check for the evidence, but it doesn't mean they're right. Don't fall into such traps as a newly-born atheist.
If DEdwards is happy, then I'm happy for him. I have to think though, had he been raised in some other tradition than the fundies or holy rollers with their emphasis on the terror of hell, he might not have ever had this struggle with his faith.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
It's called faith. With faith comes doubt. If you yourself have ever doubted, then I dare say you've struggled with the faith you have and are only holding on to it because of how it makes you feel and not due to critical reasoning.
Some people are just happy being Christians, fundies or not. Some aren't and end up leaving. That's just the way it goes.
I have had doubts in my life, and I probably always will. But I think that's hardly a bad thing. Some may emerge from doubt with unbelief, while others may have their faith strengthened.
Incidentally, by embracing evolution, the geological age of the earth in the billions of years, and rest of scientific fact, I've found my faith strengthened, as I'm freed from a belief in a six day creation six thousand years ago that had only led me further down the road of doubt. In that sense, faith and doubt can compliment each other.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
jojobean
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Gender: Female
Posts: 3,341
Location: In Georgia sipping a virgin pina' colada while the rest of the world is drunk
23 Feb 2012, 1:19 am
Here are my beliefs, take what you want, leave the rest, hopefully something I say will answer some questions,
The eye only sees 3 percent of the light that enters it, what is in that other 97 percent?
Surely it has to be something if it takes soo much space...its energy.
In my belief, God is that energy that is in everything like water is in the ocean.
God has many names, many faces,but is one source, no religion truly understands God...only what they choose to project on God.
When I say (Is) I mean I believe God has no gender and to simplify things my pronoun for God is "Is".
Anyway I believe in reincarnation cause it only makes sense, in fact the bible once talked about reincarnation too before the church grew to power in the middle ages and edited it out and declaring it heresy. They did that because they wanted people to believe that only the church had total control of people's souls...reincarnation bypasses the church.
As far as reincarnation being the only afterlife scenero that makes sense, I mean the whole universe and all that is in it operates in cycles...and cycles within cycles within cycles, nothing is linear...so why would our souls' journey be linear?
Why are we imperfect yet "made in his image"?
Each one of us has the whole spectrum of humanity within us from Gandhi to Hitler...we also have our likeness with God within us, but our minds have not realized it yet. Our journey through our many lives is a journey to realizing our oneness with God...this only comes through experience. Suffering helps us experience joy...without ever having suffering, we would not know what joy or peace was and would not treasure it. Suffering teaches us the value of non-suffering.
Through experiencing the opposites of God, we grow closer to our likeness in God.
As far as the evil in the world today...humanity has to reach a point where it is weary of it and then people will seek the opposites of evil.
Here is a real mind bender...if I haven't done that yet, I believe we chose our lives before we are born for our spiritual growth...we take part in planning our spiritual journey...of course we only have a limited number of choices based on our spiritual needs and karma or else we all be millionaires, but we choose our lives for various reasons. for example, the infant whose mother died, will mourn the loss of her mother for the rest of her life, but this will cause her to be very invested in welfare of children in her area and she will become a child advovcate, all because she knows what it is like to be without someone to look out for her. The mother who chose her life, also chose her death, so her daughter could go on and be the person she becomes. Each action, has an oppisite reaction...also applies in our spiritual life. The laws of the universe are applied in spirit as well.
Anyway, my beliefs are custom made...I went on a journey years ago to find what was true to me, beyond what anyone told me to believe...I followed my heart and my inner guide and this is where that journey lead me...I am still growing and changing my beliefs but the entirety of my beliefs is a combination of Gnostic Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Native American Spirituality with some Neo-Pagan earth religions thrown in for good measure.
But like I said, take what you want, leave the rest, hopefully something I said will answer some questions for you.
Also I ask you to learn the history of the bible and its many changes during the middle ages before believing the current version as the Word. Changes in the middle ages were not made by God, but by power-thirsty religious leaders for totalitarian control. The many changes it went through explain its contradictory nature...some changes were made here and there, but overlooked in other places. It is a great source of guidance on many subjects, but the belief of it being infalable indeed leads to much doubt and confusion.
The only infalable word of God is within you... in your hopes and dreams and that "gut" feeling. I cant tell you what to believe, nor should anyone else, only you know what is true for you.
Jojo
Jojo
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All art is a kind of confession, more or less oblique. All artists, if they are to survive, are forced, at last, to tell the whole story; to vomit the anguish up.
-James Baldwin
23 Feb 2012, 1:54 am
Huh? Who told you that?
Maybe you mean that the eye can only see a certain section of the electromagnetic spectrum? Well, that's true. But the rest of the electromagnetic waves aren't God. They're, like, X-rays and radio waves and stuff.
23 Feb 2012, 4:05 am
God is x-rays? Does that mean he sees all the ladies nude? Lucky shmuck
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Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
23 Feb 2012, 6:07 am
I personally don't understand the liberal Christians that do much more cherry-picking than the fundamentalists. It's like they know something's not right but they just don't want to let go of it completely.
Where's the intellectual integrity and honor in that?
Yes, I agree with you.
To deny an evil is evil itself. The Bible is full of evil. God ordering Abraham to kill his son, and then rewarding him with prosperity, is perhaps one of the strongest ethical arguments against the Bible. It is pure evil and nothing less and nobody will tell me otherwise.
There is absolute good and absolute evil in this world.
You can believe in God, be a sinner, and yet if you repent, you will be rewarded with heaven.
You cannot believe in God, be a sinner, and you will go to hell.
You cannot believe in God, be a good person, and you will still go to hell.
How is this logical?
Be a good person. That is my religion. Don't f*** p and you won't have to repent to save yourself.
And to say that the Bible should be interpreted metaphorically and symbolically is doing an evil onto those who are simply unable or unwilling to do so.
Catholicism is about oppression disguised as benevolence. When a person does not admit their own evil, they are evil.
23 Feb 2012, 7:28 am
Edit: The story of Abraham is disgusting to me but I'm not sure if it applies specifically to Christianity or Catholicism? It seems like it is of Hebrew origin? I don't really know what I am talking about because I was not raised with any religion, but my point still stands that this story disgusts me and describes everything that is wrong with religion.
23 Feb 2012, 7:55 am
You think that's bad. Try the story of Jephthah and his unfortunate daughter.
23 Feb 2012, 9:33 am
The vision thing, that's true.
Frankly, I'm glad we can only see certain wavelengths. X-rays, gamma rays, radio and TV signals just sound like way too much information.
I mean, take a look at this and tell me that it wouldn't be spoiled by more wavelengths;
Also, I wanted to provide some names of what I've been watching on YouTube:
Thunderf00t (series of "Why do people laugh at creationists?" and seems to not like Muslims very much), Captain Disillusion (debunking videos like Mythbusters, critical thinking), Richard Dawkins (I thought it was Hawkins in an earlier post, pure, unadulterated atheism), Carl Sagan and Neil Degrasse Tyson (science and critical thinking).
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