Vigilans
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 Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| fraac wrote: | So you're saying the majority, or the most powerful faction, determine reality?
What if none of us can see reality except through a lens? |
If one unquestionably believes in things that are not apparently there I would say they are the ones looking through a lens
Reality determines reality
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Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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simon_says
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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If anyone has trouble discerning reality, by all means stop looking both ways when you cross the street.
Reality believes in you. |
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fraac
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| dizzywater wrote: | Fraac,
I am curious, you are obviously on the "belief in God" side of the fence.
Why do you believe in God? Do you feel there is compelling evidence? If so what is it? |
I don't think I am obviously on that side. I can see that side, and how one could have compelling evidence for it that you couldn't easily transmit to another person. The existence of that kind of evidence - rationally accessible yet not easily spread - doesn't present me with significant problems.
| Vigilans wrote: | | If one unquestionably believes in things that are not apparently there I would say they are the ones looking through a lens |
Apparent to whom? Once again, an atheist casting himself as omniscient isn't a strong argument against God. |
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Thom_Fuleri
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| fraac wrote: | | Apparent to whom? Once again, an atheist casting himself as omniscient isn't a strong argument against God. |
The argument is not "there is no God." The argument is "there is no evidence to support the existence of God". He hides...
Assuming that things with no evidence do not exist is the default position. It has to be, because the number of things with no evidence tends towards infinity. I don't have any reason to believe in Bigfoot, Smurfs, the Loch Ness Monster, UFOs, ghosts, Cylons, vampires, werewolves, Medusa, dragons, Cerberus, Santa, hobbits, the Easter Bunny, Zeus, Zuul, Osiris, Dr Manhattan, elves, Superman, the Vervoids, unicorns, dogs capable of higher mathematics or the brain of George W Bush, to name but a small and occasionally flippant list of supposedly non-existent things. Why should the deity of one single religion be given special consideration?
The difference between us is that no amount of absence will convince you that God is not there, but if you can show me God (not a book, not the story of a vision, not an appeal to a fallacious argument, not threats of violence or excommunication - actual evidence) I will convert on the spot. Same goes for any of the things listed above. |
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fraac
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| You keep saying there is no evidence and I keep saying you're a dog being confused by arithmetic. Logically, you have to accept either the possibility that there is evidence that isn't currently accessible to you, or that you have a clearer view than everyone else. One of those sounds implausible to me. |
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Vigilans
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| fraac wrote: | | Apparent to whom? |
Apparent to anybody outside of an individual's mind.
| fraac wrote: | | Once again, an atheist casting himself as omniscient isn't a strong argument against God. |
Not even close, try again
| fraac wrote: | | So you're saying the majority, or the most powerful faction, determine reality? |
I'm want to go back to this statement because I think it is rather nonsensical; the majority of the human race believes in some supernatural thing or another, despite their lack of physical evidence. So no, the majority does not determine reality, because the majority's thoughts on the matter have never been particularly important
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
Last edited by Vigilans on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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fraac
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | | fraac wrote: | | Apparent to whom? |
Apparent to anybody outside of an individual's mind. |
So, the majority? Or what? Oh you've edited. Well if not the majority then who? Two people in a room - which one is sane? |
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simon_says
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| fraac wrote: | | You keep saying there is no evidence and I keep saying you're a dog being confused by arithmetic. Logically, you have to accept either the possibility that there is evidence that isn't currently accessible to you, or that you have a clearer view than everyone else. One of those sounds implausible to me. |
Yet you didnt afford that possibility to any other gods, spirits or elves. Strange. It's almost as if you'll say anything to support whatever mythological system you were trained to believe by your culture. |
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Vigilans
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| fraac wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | | fraac wrote: | | Apparent to whom? |
Apparent to anybody outside of an individual's mind. |
So, the majority? Or what? Oh you've edited. Well if not the majority then who? Two people in a room - which one is sane? |
This seems to be rather misdirecting. I said not all perceptions are equal, because clearly some people are compromised. If you consider all "perceptions" of reality equal, then I have to ask if you consider Pagan perceptions, or Satanic perceptions. What these "perceptions" amount to is coloration of reality based on context, this being religious in nature. Therefore I would say it is a willful delusion. While an insane person's delusions are not under their control
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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fraac
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| simon_says wrote: | | Yet you didnt afford that possibility to any other gods, spirits or elves. Strange. It's almost as if you'll say anything to support whatever mythological system you were trained to believe by your culture. |
When was the subject elves? It's like you'll say anything. Stop projecting.
| Vigilans wrote: | | I said not all perceptions are equal, because clearly some people are compromised. |
Clear TO WHO? You too are failing to see that your viewpoint is subjective. Famously, journalists in an insane asylum are clearly compromised according to the psychiatrists there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment - so who decides what is rational? It can't be you because that's solipsistic and doesn't scale. We agree the majority aren't the smartest. So who? |
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simon_says
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| fraac wrote: | | When was the subject elves? It's like you'll say anything. Stop projecting. |
So magically your magic is the only magic worth considering? Show your math on eliminatng the other gods. Maybe you are the dog in that scenario and the celestial evidence just floats above your head while you gnaw on your monotheistic bone. |
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fraac
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Vigilans, you can see simon_says is swinging his warhammer at some culturally monotheistic imaginary foe. He's scared to relate honestly with the people in the thread. Would you call him insane? |
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simon_says
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| fraac wrote: | | Vigilans, you can see simon_says is swinging his warhammer at some culturally monotheistic imaginary foe. He's scared to relate honestly with the people in the thread. Would you call him insane? |
So when you repeatedly use the term "god" it actually means something else? Interesting. |
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Vigilans
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| fraac wrote: | | Clear TO WHO? You too are failing to see that your viewpoint is subjective. |
If you consider hallucinations and psychiatric delusions equal perceptions to "sober" reality - aka things that actually happen- I don't really know what else to say to you
| fraac wrote: | | Famously, journalists in an insane asylum are clearly compromised according to the psychiatrists there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment - so who decides what is rational? It can't be you because that's solipsistic and doesn't scale. We agree the majority aren't the smartest. So who? |
The interesting thing is the majority of humans are at least a little rational, except about one particular thing, this being divinity. Having lifelong indoctrination about the supernatural tends to color the world in this manner and most people naturally want to apply meaning to things, or to believe that no matter what, there is a plan for them. Sometimes if I'm eager to accomplish something I'll still have the train of thought like "come on, please, let me get this, etc" except I don't actually believe my words are being heard by anybody on "my team". A lot of religious people's psych is like an inherent team-mentality- the team being "them and God/s"
| fraac wrote: | | Vigilans, you can see simon_says is swinging his warhammer at some culturally monotheistic imaginary foe. He's scared to relate honestly with the people in the thread. Would you call him insane? |
I don't see anything wrong with what simon_says is saying. He actually has a very good point about your respect for "other magical systems" that I recommend you at least acknowledge instead of avoiding
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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fraac
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | | If you consider hallucinations and psychiatric delusions equal perceptions to "sober" reality - aka things that actually happen- I don't really know what else to say to you |
I'm saying that every experiment conducted considers them equal. This is where theism and Buddhism diverge. I keep talking about the real world so it looks like I'm a theist but I know I have animal motives for everything I say so it's still undecided.
| Quote: | | I don't see anything wrong with what simon_says is saying. He actually has a very good point about your respect for "other magical systems" that I recommend you at least acknowledge instead of avoiding |
His "point" is that I don't respect them, not that I do. He wants to argue with people who aren't in this thread. |
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