TM
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Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | TM wrote: |
If they understood that:
- Less social inequality means less crime.
- Access to heatlhcare for everyone actually benefits everyone.
- Clean air actually benefits everyone.
And so on, they wouldn't be republicans. I'm to the right myself, but even I think the Republican policies are idiotic at this time. |
That is a prudential argument for choosing the lesser of evils, not an advocacy of charity. The basic impulse of charity is justice, not paying into a protection racket.
You are saying: help the poor or they will beat us up. Did I get that right?
ruveyn |
This whole thing we call society is a protection/bribery racket. People are only willing to abide by the social contract if it benefits them or if they are forced to. You can spend the money on a strong police force, a huge criminal justice system, lawyers and a gigantic inhuman prison system or give people some cash to get back on their feet, or at least keep them from robbing people. Either way you're spending the money. About the prison system, I'm not against prisons, I'm against the American prison system, because quite often the punishment of the system exceeds the damage done by the crime. This is not punishment literally done by the law, but the punishment of being gang raped, extorted, abused and possibly murdered by other prisoners and sometimes guards .
How is "Help the poor or they will beat us up" any different from "Don't tax the rich or they will take their magical job creation power away"? |
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ruveyn
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: |
No, but the fact remains, people in desperate poverty might do desperate things in order to survive. It's better that we all collectively keep that from happening to people.
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"They might do desperate things...." You have just contradicted yourself. The threat is this: Give me money or I will become desperate .... . That sounds like a threat and charity now becomes a Protection Racket. I suggest you take some quiet time and learn the virtues of Logical Consistency.
Might I suggest an alternative: any one who becomes desperate and misbehaves, gets a bullet in a vital place. That will do just as well and is cheaper than charity. Compare the cost of a bullet to the cost of keeping someone alive who cannot earn his keep.
Did Jesus say: Render unto Kaiser what is Kaiser's or he will bust your knee caps? Or did Jesus say render unto God's what is God's or you will burn in Hell?
ruveyn |
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CrazyCatLord
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| The poor will work if they get a chance to work, but society can't punish people for a shortage of jobs. If people have no legal options to make a living, they will indeed become desperate and "misbehave". But that's only a protection racket in the alternate universe that conservatives appear to live in. |
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Fnord
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Fnord wrote: | | "Theo-Fascists" ... I like that term. It describes them perfectly. |
"Theo-Nazi" also has a nice ring to it!
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Kraichgauer
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: |
No, but the fact remains, people in desperate poverty might do desperate things in order to survive. It's better that we all collectively keep that from happening to people.
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"They might do desperate things...." You have just contradicted yourself. The threat is this: Give me money or I will become desperate .... . That sounds like a threat and charity now becomes a Protection Racket. I suggest you take some quiet time and learn the virtues of Logical Consistency.
Might I suggest an alternative: any one who becomes desperate and misbehaves, gets a bullet in a vital place. That will do just as well and is cheaper than charity. Compare the cost of a bullet to the cost of keeping someone alive who cannot earn his keep.
Did Jesus say: Render unto Kaiser what is Kaiser's or he will bust your knee caps? Or did Jesus say render unto God's what is God's or you will burn in Hell?
ruveyn |
I had not intended to contradict myself, but it came out that way, I guess.
Though threatening violence against people who have nothing to lose isn't much of a cure all for poverty. Giving them a hand up, and providing jobs is more of a magic bullet for the whole problem.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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enrico_dandolo
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Joined: Nov 21, 2011
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | "They might do desperate things...." You have just contradicted yourself. The threat is this: Give me money or I will become desperate .... . That sounds like a threat and charity now becomes a Protection Racket. I suggest you take some quiet time and learn the virtues of Logical Consistency.
Might I suggest an alternative: any one who becomes desperate and misbehaves, gets a bullet in a vital place. That will do just as well and is cheaper than charity. Compare the cost of a bullet to the cost of keeping someone alive who cannot earn his keep.= |
First, it would be: "Give me money, or they will become desperate, mostly amongst themselves, maybe against others." I am quite certain criminality has more consequence on poor people.
I prefer to stay empirical. Does this "protection racket" work? Does providing social programs help prevent criminality and the problems arising from poverty? All the evidence I have seen says "yes". Does the death penalty work? I have seen more proof to the contrary, even when I thought it did. Besides, I have read that, in the USA, it is more costly than life without parole, which is more costly than charity.
To my knowledge, the only era in which care for the poor was mostly effectively provided through charity, and without taxation and outside the state, was in the Middle Ages; but that needs very loose definitions of all terms. Then, it was the Church that took care of these matters, and it did receive free gifts from devoted lords and burghers, though it also collected the tithe. Even though it wasn't "the state" (well, outside Lazio, Umbria and Romagna at least), it still was an otherwise powerful (and centralized, starting with the 12th century) organization. Also, in that distant time, being poor was a sign of devotion to the Christ, not a proof of one's failure to be rich; both are false, obviously, but the first is closer to truth in limited cases, and was much more useful. If you are so keen with the Scriptures... |
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ruveyn
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | [
I had not intended to contradict myself, but it came out that way, I guess.
Though threatening violence against people who have nothing to lose isn't much of a cure all for poverty. Giving them a hand up, and providing jobs is more of a magic bullet for the whole problem.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Hand UP not Hand OUT. Helping the helpless may be a virtue, but helping the clueless is always a vice.
ruveyn |
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Raptor
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | [
I had not intended to contradict myself, but it came out that way, I guess.
Though threatening violence against people who have nothing to lose isn't much of a cure all for poverty. Giving them a hand up, and providing jobs is more of a magic bullet for the whole problem.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Hand UP not Hand OUT. Helping the helpless may be a virtue, but helping the clueless is always a vice.
ruveyn |
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."
The way we do it is to give the man fish for a lifetime at the expense of the unwilling taxpayer.  |
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ruveyn
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| Raptor wrote: |
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."
The way we do it is to give the man fish for a lifetime at the expense of the unwilling taxpayer. |
Indeed.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for a day. Let him starve to death and you can forget all about him tomorrow.
ruveyn |
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AstroGeek
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Raptor wrote: | | ruveyn wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | [
I had not intended to contradict myself, but it came out that way, I guess.
Though threatening violence against people who have nothing to lose isn't much of a cure all for poverty. Giving them a hand up, and providing jobs is more of a magic bullet for the whole problem.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Hand UP not Hand OUT. Helping the helpless may be a virtue, but helping the clueless is always a vice.
ruveyn |
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."
The way we do it is to give the man fish for a lifetime at the expense of the unwilling taxpayer. |
Then I take it you would support free tuition on post-secondary education? |
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Kraichgauer
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Raptor wrote: | | ruveyn wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | [
I had not intended to contradict myself, but it came out that way, I guess.
Though threatening violence against people who have nothing to lose isn't much of a cure all for poverty. Giving them a hand up, and providing jobs is more of a magic bullet for the whole problem.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Hand UP not Hand OUT. Helping the helpless may be a virtue, but helping the clueless is always a vice.
ruveyn |
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."
The way we do it is to give the man fish for a lifetime at the expense of the unwilling taxpayer. |
The notion that all taxpayers who support programs that help the down and out, and the handicapped is just another Republican myth. Plenty of Americans realize they have a responsibility to care for those who are without. If anything, this is a right wing example of class warfare.
And...
You can teach a man to fish all you want. It doesn't amount to anything if employers aren't willing to hire him. And please don't tell me he can go into business himself - that's almost impossible these days for poor people to get help with financing.
On second thought, it might work, if Republicans get past the idea that the government has no right to tell businesses who and when to hire.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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ruveyn
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | And please don't tell me he can go into business himself - that's almost impossible these days for poor people to get help with financing.
On second thought, it might work, if Republicans get past the idea that the government has no right to tell businesses who and when to hire.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Tell that to Oprah Winfrey of J.K. Rowlings. They started out as women on the dole.
ruveyn |
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donnie_darko
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: |
Obama is slightly more right than the German right-wing party, which makes the Republican accusations of him being a communist utterly hilarious. As for the Republican party, I don't understand how American conservatives can't see how dangerous they are. We tend to view parties with a similar agenda as radical extremists. I find it frightening that they have such a huge following in the USA. |
Sorry to open a can of worms here possibly, but do Germans see the GOP as similar to the Nazis? |
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goodwitchy
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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That was an interesting article, thank you. I feel better for reading it.
| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | The poor will work if they get a chance to work, but society can't punish people for a shortage of jobs. If people have no legal options to make a living, they will indeed become desperate and "misbehave". But that's only a protection racket in the alternate universe that conservatives appear to live in. |
Thank you. 
Instead the far right seems willing to vilify anyone who has been out of work for an extended period of time. It's amazing to me that the far right accepts this as truth in the face of the unemployment crisis of the past few years.
Many people who are still out of work had good, long term jobs before they lost them in this recession/depression (I know a few personally) and I also know a few people who have/had their own companies that are really hurting.
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AstroGeek
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | And please don't tell me he can go into business himself - that's almost impossible these days for poor people to get help with financing.
On second thought, it might work, if Republicans get past the idea that the government has no right to tell businesses who and when to hire.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Tell that to Oprah Winfrey of J.K. Rowlings. They started out as women on the dole.
ruveyn |
I don't know much about Oprah's history, but JK Rowling is obviously an exceptional writer (which, by the way, is very different to going into business--it doesn't require her to take out a loan). It is downright stupid to expect everyone to be able to do something like that. The "rags to riches" stories that we hear about are very rare exceptions to the rule--and in this case it is due to a great talent, which very few people possess. Furthermore, to be able to sustain herself while she wrote Harry Potter she relied on the British welfare system which even post-Thatcher is a lot more generous than the American one.
Also, JK Rowling is a big supporter of welfare programs and public health care. She criticized Tony Blair as being too far to the right, and praised both Obama and Hilary Clinton. Not the best person that you could have chosen to make your point. |
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