| Where are you politically? |
| Liberal |
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12% |
[ 13 ] |
| Conservative |
|
9% |
[ 10 ] |
| Moderate |
|
6% |
[ 7 ] |
| Socialist |
|
12% |
[ 13 ] |
| Libertarian |
|
14% |
[ 15 ] |
| Authoritarian |
|
0% |
[ 1 ] |
| Anarchist |
|
4% |
[ 5 ] |
| Communist |
|
2% |
[ 3 ] |
| Centrist |
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4% |
[ 5 ] |
| Mixture of a few |
|
19% |
[ 20 ] |
| Other |
|
8% |
[ 9 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 101 |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29314
Location: New Jersey
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 Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| Master_Pedant wrote: | | Leftish egalitarian - probably some mix of Fabian socialism watered down with liberalism, i.e. social democracy. Supportive of Saxon style Co-Determination, the cooperative sector, and a plethora of social welfare measures. |
Paid for by people who are charged with the cost whether or not they desire the services. If an individual did that to other people, he would be convicted of theft and extortion.
ruveyn |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26043
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| puddingmouse wrote: | | I don't know what to suggest, other than the social liberals in this country growing a pair and being intellectually honest. |
FWIW, this and other reasons is why I moved away from the Lib Dems. |
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Mummy_of_Peanut
Countess de Noir
Joined: Feb 21, 2011
Age: 40
Posts: 3474
Location: Bonnie Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| donnie_darko wrote: | | In all seriousness though, communism is making a huge comeback. People declared it dead in the 1990s, but now that capitalism seems to be in dire straits, and people are realizing the Soviets were never true communists to begin with, is it REALLY proven wrong? |
I know, that's a common conversation I have with people. It wasn't true communism, otherwise how come we suddenly had all these Russian billionaires, just as communism in the Soviet Union fell. It's taking a while for the penny to click.
_________________
"We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all we need to make us really happy is something to be enthusiatic about." Charles Kingsley |
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scubasteve
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 18, 2009
Age: 28
Posts: 993
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| donnie_darko wrote: | | Why is capitalism the only realistic option? Quite to the contrary, this economic crisis is more of a true failure of capitalism than the events of 1989 were of communism. |
| Mummy_of_Peanut wrote: | Maybe my dreams will become reality. But, given that my 6yr old daughter has just been given a homework exercise aimed at promoting capitalism, my hope for the future is taking a blow. Are you up for a revolution?  |
| donnie_darko wrote: | why yes of course
In all seriousness though, communism is making a huge comeback. People declared it dead in the 1990s, but now that capitalism seems to be in dire straits, and people are realizing the Soviets were never true communists to begin with, is it REALLY proven wrong? |
Communism was already dying in the Brezhnev years. The events of 1989 were inevitable. Soviet communism wasn't "true" communism, in the sense that the term was originally synonymous with socialism. But consider the reasons why it may have diverged. As I posted recently on another thread: Without property, there is no reward. Without rewards, the only way to motivate people is by holding a gun to their head. So that's what the Soviets tried to do. I would argue that this was not their failure, but the failure of Marx's theories to account for human nature, and therefore to be applicable on a national scale.
[Edit by mod - I'm trying to fix the quotes so it's obvious who they are by - Mummy_of_Peanut] |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26043
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| scubasteve wrote: | | As I posted recently on another thread: Without property, there is no reward. Without rewards, the only way to motivate people is by holding a gun to their head. So that's what the Soviets tried to do. I would argue that this was not their failure, but the failure of Marx's theories to account for human nature, and therefore to be applicable on a national scale. |
+1. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29314
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| scubasteve wrote: |
Communism was already dying in the Brezhnev years. The events of 1989 were inevitable. Soviet communism wasn't "true" communism, in the sense that the term was originally synonymous with socialism. But consider the reasons why it may have diverged. As I posted recently on another thread: Without property, there is no reward. Without rewards, the only way to motivate people is by holding a gun to their head. So that's what the Soviets tried to do. I would argue that this was not their failure, but the failure of Marx's theories to account for human nature, and therefore to be applicable on a national scale. |
anyone attempting to put a provably bogus theory into practice is at fault. Marxism can be shown not to be feasible. As long as human being prefer the welfare of their own children to that of the children of strangers collectivism cannot work.
ruveyn |
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donnie_darko
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Age: 23
Posts: 1794
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| scubasteve wrote: |
Communism was already dying in the Brezhnev years. The events of 1989 were inevitable. Soviet communism wasn't "true" communism, in the sense that the term was originally synonymous with socialism. But consider the reasons why it may have diverged. As I posted recently on another thread: Without property, there is no reward. Without rewards, the only way to motivate people is by holding a gun to their head. So that's what the Soviets tried to do. I would argue that this was not their failure, but the failure of Marx's theories to account for human nature, and therefore to be applicable on a national scale.
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In a materialistic society, which even 20th century Russia was, you're right. But hunter-gatherer society and East Asian societies in many ways are culturally what you would call communist. If material wealth is the only kind of 'reward', then yes, communism doesn't work, but I think that has more to do with memetics than genetics.
In Vietnam, communism actually is working quite well, though it's a mixed system like China is. |
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AceOfSpades
Deeds not words
Joined: Feb 12, 2006
Posts: 3647
Location: Sean Penn, Cambodia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | Master_Pedant wrote: | | Leftish egalitarian - probably some mix of Fabian socialism watered down with liberalism, i.e. social democracy. Supportive of Saxon style Co-Determination, the cooperative sector, and a plethora of social welfare measures. |
Paid for by people who are charged with the cost whether or not they desire the services. If an individual did that to other people, he would be convicted of theft and extortion.
ruveyn |
And if anyone other than a police officer cuffed someone up and threw him/her in the back of a car, that individual would be convicted of kidnapping. Why do you keep having to regurgitate this line over and over when this logic proves nothing?
Last edited by AceOfSpades on Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:51 am; edited 2 times in total |
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scubasteve
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 18, 2009
Age: 28
Posts: 993
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| donnie_darko wrote: | | In a materialistic society, which even 20th century Russia was, you're right. But hunter-gatherer society and East Asian societies in many ways are culturally what you would call communist. If material wealth is the only kind of 'reward', then yes, communism doesn't work, but I think that has more to do with memetics than genetics. |
That's a good point. The political system has to fit the culture. What works in parts of Asia won't necessarily work in the West, and vice-versa. |
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Mummy_of_Peanut
Countess de Noir
Joined: Feb 21, 2011
Age: 40
Posts: 3474
Location: Bonnie Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Most people in our society see material wealth as the only way. That notion doesn't exist in my ideal society (as I said, it's pie in the sky and unrealistic) and, in case anyone was wondering, I have watched the Zeitgeist movies.
_________________
"We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all we need to make us really happy is something to be enthusiatic about." Charles Kingsley |
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donnie_darko
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Age: 23
Posts: 1794
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| scubasteve wrote: |
That's a good point. The political system has to fit the culture. What works in parts of Asia won't necessarily work in the West, and vice-versa. |
I guess my main issue with capitalism is that many of its defenses, such as the trickle down theory, are incorrect, and also the fact I find it immoral because it's based on endless growth which translates to endless destruction of the environment and endless depletion of resources, and also why capitalists claim that their system rewards people for their merit and hard work, it actually rewards people who already have money and punishes those who don't have money, making the gap between the classes impossibly wide and based almost solely on heredity and luck.
The problem is that capitalism is built into the American culture, and to a lesser extent into all European and European-based cultures, so it's difficult to get people to go along with it. I think the best way to discourage capitalism is to educate people of its flaws and more importantly, to demonstrate how other systems can work. |
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scubasteve
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 18, 2009
Age: 28
Posts: 993
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| What Winston Churchill said about Democracy, I think is true about Capitalism as well: It is the worst economic system, except for all the others that have been tried. |
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donnie_darko
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Age: 23
Posts: 1794
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| scubasteve wrote: | | What Winston Churchill said about Democracy, I think is true about Capitalism as well: It is the worst economic system, except for all the others that have been tried. |
Eh I guess so. I would rather have a system that wasn't so ecologically destructive and rewarding of human greed. |
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Chipshorter
Velociraptor
Joined: Jan 17, 2012
Age: 34
Posts: 477
Location: The Georgian Quarter of The Pool of Life, The Centre of The Creative Universe
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| donnie_darko wrote: | | The problem is that capitalism is built into the American culture, and to a lesser extent into all European and European-based cultures, so it's difficult to get people to go along with it. I think the best way to discourage capitalism is to educate people of its flaws and more importantly, to demonstrate how other systems can work. |
Modern capitalism is however capitalism historically is built on European culture via the industrial revolution and mercantilism..
_________________
Censorship reflects a society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime. --Potter Stewart
Corruption is authority plus monopoly minus transparency. --Unknown |
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TheHouseholdCat
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 01, 2012
Posts: 667
Location: Berlin, Germany
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:00 am Post subject: |
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I voted for "mixture of a few" because I do have some... Socialist beliefs, but do not feel I have much in common with most Socialist parties. I also feel... Moderate.
| CoMF wrote: | | I'm an individualist and don't subscribe to a particular political philosophy as being inherently "superior" to any others. |
I somehow feel like this most of the time.
The other day, I just thought that basically the majority of all political parties have the same goals or ideals. It doesn't matter all that much.
What I like about Socialism is that in theory it seems logical to me.
| Mummy_of_Peanut wrote: | | Most people in our society see material wealth as the only way. That notion doesn't exist in my ideal society (as I said, it's pie in the sky and unrealistic) and, in case anyone was wondering, I have watched the Zeitgeist movies. |
Material wealth destroys us. I don't mean to make it sound so apocalyptic, but I can only see what happens around me. There is a reason why people betray others for money. It's not a good thing. And I don't understand it. Not because I feel morally superior but because I would feel so bad and guilty about myself if I betrayed someone just to get money.
Material wealth is so absurd to me. Because most material things, ironically, seem so insubstantial to me. You buy a new dress - it's just like all your other dresses. Unless you connect some immaterial value to it. You buy a car. It's just a car. Unless you connect some immaterial value to it.
Children. It's the same. If you have children because you feel obliged to have them... I don't know... It's strange to think of your own children as cultural goods. They are living beings, not things. 
_________________
EXPANDED CIRCLE OF FIFTHS
"It's how they see things. It's a way of bringing class to an environment, and I say that pejoratively because, obviously, good music is good music however it's created, however it's motivated." - Thomas Newman |
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