Mummy_of_Peanut
Countess de Noir
Joined: Feb 21, 2011
Age: 40
Posts: 3474
Location: Bonnie Scotland
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 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | Mummy_of_Peanut wrote: | | There are many people living with extra chromosomes (some of whom will not even be aware of it). All of them are human. The definition of a human is not 'an animal in possession of 46 chromosomes'. |
Define human, then.
ruveyn |
What's the biological definition of any species?
"The major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species."
If we take Downs Syndrome as an example, people with this condition do fit the criteria, even if their physical appearance often distinguishes them from people without Downs. Their features are no more distinguishing than many other non trisomy conditions. Fertility is reduced in Downs, but not absent and any fertile woman with Downs has a 50% chance of passing on the trisomy to their child. The father in this case will not have Downs, especially as fertility in males with Downs is rare, but not unheard of. Reproduction between people with Downs is not likely, so people with Downs would never be able to become a separate species.
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"We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all we need to make us really happy is something to be enthusiatic about." Charles Kingsley |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12733
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Mummy_of_Peanut wrote: | | ruveyn wrote: | | Mummy_of_Peanut wrote: | | There are many people living with extra chromosomes (some of whom will not even be aware of it). All of them are human. The definition of a human is not 'an animal in possession of 46 chromosomes'. |
Define human, then.
ruveyn |
What's the biological definition of any species?
"The major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species."
If we take Downs Syndrome as an example, people with this condition do fit the criteria, even if their physical appearance often distinguishes them from people without Downs. Their features are no more distinguishing than many other non trisomy conditions. Fertility is reduced in Downs, but not absent and any fertile woman with Downs has a 50% chance of passing on the trisomy to their child. The father in this case will not have Downs, especially as fertility in males with Downs is rare, but not unheard of. Reproduction between people with Downs is not likely, so people with Downs would never be able to become a separate species. |
Thank you.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29306
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: |
Beside, if the parents are human, then it stands to reason the offspring are human - no matter how many chromosomes are present. To say otherwise is ridiculous.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
You are excluding the possibility of mutation. Mutation is one of the ways new species have arisen.
ruveyn |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12733
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: |
Beside, if the parents are human, then it stands to reason the offspring are human - no matter how many chromosomes are present. To say otherwise is ridiculous.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
You are excluding the possibility of mutation. Mutation is one of the ways new species have arisen.
ruveyn |
Sure, Marvel Comics made a bundle on that premise. 
But no one is going to tell me that people with Down's Syndrome are less human than us.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29306
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: |
Sure, Marvel Comics made a bundle on that premise.
But no one is going to tell me that people with Down's Syndrome are less human than us.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Can they interbreed with the likes of you and me? If not, they are not of our species. They may be similar to us, but they are not us.
ruveyn |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12733
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: |
Sure, Marvel Comics made a bundle on that premise.
But no one is going to tell me that people with Down's Syndrome are less human than us.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Can they interbreed with the likes of you and me? If not, they are not of our species. They may be similar to us, but they are not us.
ruveyn |
Of course people with Down's Syndrome can interbreed with the rest of us!
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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NarcissusSavage
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 03, 2009
Age: 31
Posts: 656
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:19 am Post subject: |
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I said what I meant. I don't think of individuals with down syndrome (or any trisomy) as human. Humans have 46 chromosomes. They don't.
I made no statement about any sort of value judgment though. I sometimes forget people equate being human with being superior or whatever. I value sentience, and really don't even add species into the equation.
If someone really wanted to, they could probably get me to budge my position to them being a subspecies, since we can sometimes interbreed. But fertility rates are really low, so not a true member of the human species. But I think non-human is the most appropriate descriptor. Like I said, I've been called heartless, but whatever. I'm not placing a value judgment on them, not of their worth or anything. Meh.
Wouldn't it be kind of neat if a bunch of them got together somewhere and formed a real interbreeding true Downs species though? I think it would be good for us humans to share the earth with another sentient language wielding species.
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I am Ignostic.
Go ahead and define god, with universal acceptance of said definition.
I'll wait.
Maybe you are too?
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puddingmouse
cheesecake demolisher
Joined: Apr 25, 2010
Age: 26
Posts: 7028
Location: Mega City 3
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | | ruveyn wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: |
Sure, Marvel Comics made a bundle on that premise.
But no one is going to tell me that people with Down's Syndrome are less human than us.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Can they interbreed with the likes of you and me? If not, they are not of our species. They may be similar to us, but they are not us.
ruveyn |
Of course people with Down's Syndrome can interbreed with the rest of us!
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Nearly all DS men are infertile, but I don't think that affects their humanity.
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29306
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| puddingmouse wrote: |
Nearly all DS men are infertile, but I don't think that affects their humanity. |
What you call humanity is sentience. Rights do not come from the genome. They come from being a sentient person. That description would fit any sufficiently intelligent self aware life form. I prefer having the term "human" mean being genetically interfertile with homo sapien. One can always have an argument over sentience but the make up of the genome is objectively observable.
ruveyn |
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Catarina
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Feb 26, 2012
Posts: 42
Location: Northern Europe
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| Declension wrote: | | Personally, I think that eugenics is basically a good idea when it comes to genetic diseases. I think that carriers of genetic diseases should feel a social pressure to adopt rather than having biological children. . |
So you are a eugenicist.
My son was born with a life-threatening genetic disorder. 60 years ago there was no treatment. Now, it is more treatable than diabetes. In the future, who knows.
Your idea is to put SOCIAL PRESSURE on women like me to abort my child. Politically it is one election between social pressure and legal pressure. Economically, there is already enormous pressure (via underwriting and exclusions) for parents to only birth perfect and profitable tax-payer children. Life is difficult and you never know how your child will end up. They can be genetically "perfect" and end up a criminal drug-addict. They can have a life-threatening illness and end up Steven Hawking.
The belief in eugenics means you believe science is static, and that science never makes a mistakes about outcomes. It is intellectual and moral cowadice. |
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YippySkippy
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 27, 2011
Posts: 1517
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I said what I meant. I don't think of individuals with down syndrome (or any trisomy) as human. Humans have 46 chromosomes. They don't. |
Humans have two hands. If I chop off my hand, am I no longer human? If I was born without a hand, would THAT make me non-human? How about someone who lacks empathy? Would that individual be a human?  Think about it. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29306
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| YippySkippy wrote: | | Quote: | | I said what I meant. I don't think of individuals with down syndrome (or any trisomy) as human. Humans have 46 chromosomes. They don't. |
Humans have two hands. If I chop off my hand, am I no longer human? If I was born without a hand, would THAT make me non-human? How about someone who lacks empathy? Would that individual be a human? Think about it. |
You had the genetic makeup to produce a pair of hands. The loss of a hand is accidental and is not a reflection on the underlying genetic structure.
ruveyn |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12733
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Catarina wrote: | | Declension wrote: | | Personally, I think that eugenics is basically a good idea when it comes to genetic diseases. I think that carriers of genetic diseases should feel a social pressure to adopt rather than having biological children. . |
So you are a eugenicist.
My son was born with a life-threatening genetic disorder. 60 years ago there was no treatment. Now, it is more treatable than diabetes. In the future, who knows.
Your idea is to put SOCIAL PRESSURE on women like me to abort my child. Politically it is one election between social pressure and legal pressure. Economically, there is already enormous pressure (via underwriting and exclusions) for parents to only birth perfect and profitable tax-payer children. Life is difficult and you never know how your child will end up. They can be genetically "perfect" and end up a criminal drug-addict. They can have a life-threatening illness and end up Steven Hawking.
The belief in eugenics means you believe science is static, and that science never makes a mistakes about outcomes. It is intellectual and moral cowadice. |
Very, very well said.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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TM
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Catarina wrote: | | Declension wrote: | | Personally, I think that eugenics is basically a good idea when it comes to genetic diseases. I think that carriers of genetic diseases should feel a social pressure to adopt rather than having biological children. . |
So you are a eugenicist.
My son was born with a life-threatening genetic disorder. 60 years ago there was no treatment. Now, it is more treatable than diabetes. In the future, who knows.
Your idea is to put SOCIAL PRESSURE on women like me to abort my child. Politically it is one election between social pressure and legal pressure. Economically, there is already enormous pressure (via underwriting and exclusions) for parents to only birth perfect and profitable tax-payer children. Life is difficult and you never know how your child will end up. They can be genetically "perfect" and end up a criminal drug-addict. They can have a life-threatening illness and end up Steven Hawking.
The belief in eugenics means you believe science is static, and that science never makes a mistakes about outcomes. It is intellectual and moral cowadice. |
I would argue with you, but I've found that whenever someone leads with a heart-wrenching personal story, you're per social protocol not allowed to point out the flaws in it. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12733
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| puddingmouse wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | ruveyn wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: |
Sure, Marvel Comics made a bundle on that premise.
But no one is going to tell me that people with Down's Syndrome are less human than us.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Can they interbreed with the likes of you and me? If not, they are not of our species. They may be similar to us, but they are not us.
ruveyn |
Of course people with Down's Syndrome can interbreed with the rest of us!
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Nearly all DS men are infertile, but I don't think that affects their humanity. |
I still fail to see how that negates their humanity. Also, how about women with Down's? Are they fertile?
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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