Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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 Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | | snapcap wrote: | | Atheism is a belief system, because people have to have a reason to believe there is no God, they don't simply think that for no good reason. |
I have challenged many people here who make this claim to define what this unique atheist belief system is, and I have yet to see a real answer. So perhaps you might try being the first to enlighten me, a pragmatic atheist, in what his belief system is?
| snapcap wrote: | | Even if God came up to you, you would still stay headstrong to your belief? Well, if God walked up to me, I don't think it would be so much about belief, but knowledge. "There is God", not "I believe that is God". Although, I'm not sure how you could test the claim. |
That isn't really what I mean. If I were to choose the most reasonable theism I would say is is Deism. I would probably think similarly to them in that it is an uninvolved God. Furthermore I would stop considering the concept supernatural and instead try to discover what the nature of this extraordinary being is, and what processes led to its evolution and eventual part of it's life cycle whereby it decided to create a new universe
| snapcap wrote: | You mean my lack in belief of their existence? 
I'm sure my existence has been defined by them more than you think. What if they never existed for the Romans/Greeks? Seems like that could somehow affect how events played out up til today. |
That is not what I was asking you about
| snapcap wrote: | | Do you consider yourself part of the bandwagon of atheists that say atheism isn't a belief? |
I am an individual who does not consider the supernatural explanations offered by various human beings for the nature and origin of the universe the best or most reasonable of available hypotheses. |
I will say this Vigilians isnt like most atheists that I have talked to on WP I have not bashed his beliefs or opinons why because the world is full of people that believe and think diffrently from each other its a good thing to we dont all want to believe in the same thing life would be super boring that way. |
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snapcap
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 13, 2011
Age: 31
Posts: 2328
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: |
I have challenged many people here who make this claim to define what this unique atheist belief system is, and I have yet to see a real answer. So perhaps you might try being the first to enlighten me, a pragmatic atheist, in what he believes in? |
What is your reason for being an atheist, and I'll tell you.
| Quote: |
That isn't really what I mean. If I were to choose the most reasonable theism I would say is is Deism. I would probably think similarly to them in that it is an uninvolved God. Furthermore I would stop considering the concept supernatural and instead try to discover what the nature of this extraordinary being is, and what processes led to its evolution and eventual part of it's life cycle whereby it decided to create a new universe |
Sounds like a challenge.
| Quote: | | I am an individual who does not consider the supernatural explanations offered by various human beings for the nature and origin of the universe the best or most reasonable of available hypotheses. |
But you accept that it is your belief? |
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Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 12092
Location: La belle province
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| snapcap wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: |
I have challenged many people here who make this claim to define what this unique atheist belief system is, and I have yet to see a real answer. So perhaps you might try being the first to enlighten me, a pragmatic atheist, in what he believes in? |
What is your reason for being an atheist, and I'll tell you. |
I have never been religious. I identify as a human
| snapcap wrote: | | Quote: | | That isn't really what I mean. If I were to choose the most reasonable theism I would say is is Deism. I would probably think similarly to them in that it is an uninvolved God. Furthermore I would stop considering the concept supernatural and instead try to discover what the nature of this extraordinary being is, and what processes led to its evolution and eventual part of it's life cycle whereby it decided to create a new universe |
Sounds like a challenge. |
Which is what separates the faithful from reality
| snapcap wrote: | | Quote: | | I am an individual who does not consider the supernatural explanations offered by various human beings for the nature and origin of the universe the best or most reasonable of available hypotheses. |
But you accept that it is your belief? |
I don't "believe" anything, I do not know what the truth of the universe is, and refuse to pretend to have this knowledge
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | | snapcap wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: |
I have challenged many people here who make this claim to define what this unique atheist belief system is, and I have yet to see a real answer. So perhaps you might try being the first to enlighten me, a pragmatic atheist, in what he believes in? |
What is your reason for being an atheist, and I'll tell you. |
I have never been religious. I identify as a human
| snapcap wrote: | | Quote: | | That isn't really what I mean. If I were to choose the most reasonable theism I would say is is Deism. I would probably think similarly to them in that it is an uninvolved God. Furthermore I would stop considering the concept supernatural and instead try to discover what the nature of this extraordinary being is, and what processes led to its evolution and eventual part of it's life cycle whereby it decided to create a new universe |
Sounds like a challenge. |
Which is what separates the faithful from reality
| snapcap wrote: | | Quote: | | I am an individual who does not consider the supernatural explanations offered by various human beings for the nature and origin of the universe the best or most reasonable of available hypotheses. |
But you accept that it is your belief? |
I don't "believe" anything, I do not know what the truth of the universe is, and refuse to pretend to have this knowledge |
No one does its all a mystery. |
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snapcap
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 13, 2011
Age: 31
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: |
I have never been religious. I identify as a human |
But you are also a human that is an atheist. Why is that?
| Quote: | | Which is what separates the faithful from reality |
Well, you say it like you could do it, but in reality you only believe you could.
| Quote: | | I don't "believe" anything, I do not know what the truth of the universe is, and refuse to pretend to have this knowledge |
But you have to have a belief regarding God. It's not possible not too. The only way it would be possible is you were never exposed to the notion.
You don't know everything there is to know about the universe, but you can still take a guess.
I think being human entails being curious about things we don't know, so we form a belief, no matter how primordial of one. |
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shrox
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 12, 2011
Posts: 3254
Location: OK let's go.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| So who's going? |
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snapcap
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 13, 2011
Age: 31
Posts: 2328
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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I'm going to go and hold a sign up that says, "I do not believe in God and that is my non-position" 
Then later, I'm going to jump on a chair and exclaim, " Who here believes that God doesn't exist, give me an AYE! Make some noise!!"
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shrox
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 12, 2011
Posts: 3254
Location: OK let's go.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I wonder what kind of food will be sold there? I like indian fry bread with powdered sugar or honey. |
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Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 12092
Location: La belle province
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| snapcap wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: |
I have never been religious. I identify as a human |
But you are also a human that is an atheist. Why is that? |
I have never been religious
| snapcap wrote: | | Quote: | | Which is what separates the faithful from reality |
Well, you say it like you could do it, but in reality you only believe you could. |
That is meaningless. Discovery is far greater than faith. The way you seem to be putting it, it is as if being intellectually lazy and just accepting God is the only logical path because of the uncertainty that one could find the answer on their own. When it comes to religion and faith, Martin Luther puts it best, as quoted in my signature
| snapcap wrote: | | Quote: | | I don't "believe" anything, I do not know what the truth of the universe is, and refuse to pretend to have this knowledge |
But you have to have a belief regarding God. It's not possible not too. The only way it would be possible is you were never exposed to the notion.
You don't know everything there is to know about the universe, but you can still take a guess.
I think being human entails being curious about things we don't know, so we form a belief, no matter how primordial of one. |
A belief is pointless and obsolescent when it does not fit reality. We could believe Prometheus gave fire to men. No, that's stupid. But a burning bush through which God Almighty thus spake? That is not stupid at all.
| snapcap wrote: | I'm going to go and hold a sign up that says, "I do not believe in God and that is my non-position"
Then later, I'm going to jump on a chair and exclaim, " Who here believes that God doesn't exist, give me an AYE! Make some noise!!"
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You're going to look pretty strange doing that all by yourself in your room
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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snapcap
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 13, 2011
Age: 31
Posts: 2328
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: |
I have never been religious |
Why not? Why have you never considered it?
You're leading me to think that the reason you're atheist is because you just never considered becoming a theist of any sort, in the same way your typical Jesus fundy never considered Islam. You are pretty comfortable with your beliefs as they are, so you really see no point in changing them.
But there is more to it than that, I'm sure. Can you not say yourself why you are an atheist? I ask because your answers are pretty vague.
| Quote: | | That is meaningless. Discovery is far greater than faith. The way you seem to be putting it, it is as if being intellectually lazy and just accepting God is the only logical path because of the uncertainty that one could find the answer on their own. |
Now where did I say that accepting God is the only logical path? I never said that in this thread or in any threads I've posted in on this entire website. What you're reading into isn't there. And I'm telling you the truth, I'm not trying to trick you. If your an atheist, that's fine with me. No problem. But I will point out the flawed thinking that atheism means a total lack of belief in God. It simply doesn't describe what's going on, even if you do believe that.
| Quote: | | A belief is pointless and obsolescent when it does not fit reality. We could believe Prometheus gave fire to men. No, that's stupid. But a burning bush through which God Almighty thus spake? That is not stupid at all. |
On one hand you admit that you don't know everything there is to know about the universe, yet on the other you say that belief doesn't fit in reality.
But atheism is a belief. You can believe that it isn't, just like someone can believe in a burning bush, but that doesn't make it so.
| Quote: | | You're going to look pretty strange doing that all by yourself in your room |
I knew that was you all along looking through my window! 
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Lord_Gareth
Velociraptor
Joined: Feb 21, 2012
Posts: 440
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:42 am Post subject: |
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*Sigh*
What you're not getting, Snapcap, is that atheism is a negative position, whereas theism is a positive one. Atheism asserts nothing; inherently, it only means a lack of belief in theistic worldviews. It doesn't indicate the presence of anything else, though. Yes, Vigilans has beliefs about the world he lives in, and he's arrived at those beliefs by certain metrics he (and for that matter, I) put stock in. But for what you're talking about, he doesn't have a belief. The statement 'God does not exist' (an assertion, by the by, which is different from a negative stance) might be the cornerstone of quite a few belief systems that incorporate an atheistic worldview, but it's not the statement Vigilans has made. He's stated doubt about universal truths, a lack of knowledge.
Refusing to make assumptions because of a lack of information is a choice, but it's not a belief. Negative positions are never beliefs, mostly because they only indicate absence, and in order to believe you kinda require a presence, an affirmative statement.
Is that comprehensible now?
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Et in Arcadia ego. - "Even in Arcadia, there am I." |
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shrox
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 12, 2011
Posts: 3254
Location: OK let's go.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:44 am Post subject: |
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Uttering the statement 'God does not exist' actually brings god into existence as an idea.
A better line of thought for the Atheist is "what?" |
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snapcap
Phoenix
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Age: 31
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| shrox wrote: | Uttering the statement 'God does not exist' actually brings god into existence as an idea.
A better line of thought for the Atheist is "what?" |
That's what a baby would say if it could speak. Unfortunately, you can't without playing dumb. |
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Lord_Gareth
Velociraptor
Joined: Feb 21, 2012
Posts: 440
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| snapcap wrote: | | shrox wrote: | Uttering the statement 'God does not exist' actually brings god into existence as an idea.
A better line of thought for the Atheist is "what?" |
That's what a baby would say if it could speak. Unfortunately, you can't without playing dumb. |
The hostility is totally needless, especially since Shrox is one of the most polite and intelligent posters on this benighted board. Did you miss my post above? Are you just ignoring it? All you need for atheism is doubt, the lack of certainty. A simple statement of, "the evidence provided is not enough to reliably indicate the presence of a god or gods," is pretty much the heart of atheism.
I'll say it again, like I said it above: belief is a positive position, indicating the presence of something. Atheism is a negative position, indicating the absence of something. An absence cannot be a presence, unless you want to start making the argument that cold (absence of heat), darkness (absence of light) and vacuum (absence of matter) are all, in fact, something that is present.
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Et in Arcadia ego. - "Even in Arcadia, there am I." |
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