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IdahoRose
Imaginary Friend
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Joined: Feb 25, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 18651
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 Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| MikaelL wrote: | | It might be theres a reason Lisbeth Salander is swedish. |
That's what I was thinking. |
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aspie48
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Posts: 1286
Location: up s**t creek with a fan as a paddle
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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yet another bad story.....
_________________
I've been through windows, doors, tv's, and chairs
But I never let go, And I pulled out most of their hair
I've mellowed a lot since then
So it takes two seconds
For me to knock the hell right out of you-Hank Williams |
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Feralucce
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 25, 2012
Age: 39
Posts: 745
Location: New Orleans, LA
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cozysweater
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 06, 2011
Posts: 570
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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Are Swedish courts like U.S. courts in that appeals are generally based on procedural issues? I'm not seeing anything in the article about why the appeals court overturned the conviction other than there were some inconsistancies in the girl's testimony. Am I missing something? (the English translations are awkward, so it's entirely possible)
What do they do if the victim was unconscious? Well, golly she didn't actually say no, so she must have been into it?  |
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MikaelL
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: May 20, 2008
Age: 43
Posts: 32
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| The inconsistancies were in the BOYS testimony, not the girls. |
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AspieOtaku
Leader of the Otaku Legion
Joined: Feb 18, 2012
Age: 30
Posts: 5874
Location: Mountain View, California, United States
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:18 am Post subject: |
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Ill be sure to stay clear from Sweden then and Im a Guy.
_________________
Your Aspie score is 193 of 200
Your neurotypical score is 40 of 200
You are very likely an aspie
No matter where I go I will always be a Gaijin even at home. Like Anime? http://www.anime44.com/anime-list |
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Huggorm
Emu Egg
Joined: Mar 27, 2012
Age: 32
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| AspieOtaku wrote: | | Ill be sure to stay clear from Sweden then and Im a Guy. |
Shouldn't be too hard to avoid  |
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InaktivForummedlem
Emu Egg
Joined: Mar 28, 2012
Posts: 4
Location: Stockholm.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:33 am Post subject: |
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Here is a rough and and unproofread translation of Hanne Kjöller's article. (I can't cite the link to the original Swedish article due to restrictions imposed on newbies,)
| Quote: | Dagens Nyheter, 23 March 2012, Editorial.
One-eyed Judges Society
Signed — Hanne Kjöller
Men can not be raped, wrote Märta Tikkanen 35 years ago. Appearantly, girls with asperger's can't be raped either.
An evening last summer a 17-year-old girl eloped from a psychiatric clinic for children and youth where she was hospitalised since several mounths. She got on a train, got off in a neighbouring town, where she wandered around "planlessly", it says in the sentence that described what happened.
She is approached by a boy who asks, together with his crowd, if she wants to tag along to a party. She doesn't. The girl has Asperger's syndrome and social contacts are difficult for her.
She finally went along anyway. According to witnesses she sat alone in a sofa while the others were dancing and playing music. She was offered vodka and finally she fell asleep where she was sitting.
According to her account she is awakened by the boy who invited her. He and another boy pull her up and drag her to the toilet. At that time everyone else had gone home. The other boy, we can call him Max, then pushes out the first boy from the toilet and locks the door.
Max tries to remove her trousers. She tries to get away. Max raises his voice saying that she must stop trying to escape, for otherwise he might get violent. He removes her trousers, pushes her up against the sink and rapes her. She begs him to stop. She vomits in a waste basket. Then she can't remember anything until she wakes up alone on the toilet floor.
Later in the night a police car on patrol notice a thinly dressed, shy young woman. The police realize that something has happened and try to talk to her, but she won't talk easily. The police don't feel any smell of alcohol and she doesn't appear to be intoxicated.
Finally the police at least get her to say that she has eloped from the hospital in the neighbouring city. They drive here there and report to the staff that it seems that something has happened.
Now the whole thing unfolds. Max, who is a rather hardened criminal although he's born in the Nineties, denies even having had sex with the teen girl. When his sperm is found he changes his story and says that they first kissed and made out, and then went to the toilet, that she undid his trousers and bent over for him to insert his penis.
Neither the district court nor the court of appeal believe a word of this. A testimony from a senior psychiatrist describes how the girl eschews all forms of physical contact, even a friendly tap on the arm. She has never had a relation involving kisses and hugs.
The district court sentence Max to two years in prison for rape. The court of appeal acquit him. This is where things get really unpleasant.
For on the whole, the court of appeal make the same assessment as the district court. They state that the girls acount, though scanty in words and expression, has been "clear, detailed and devoid of inconsistencies". That there has not been any signs of exaggeration and that she is credible, whereas Max' account is gainsaid by the testimonies of both a physician and of the others at the party.
"By way of conclusion the court of appeal find that there are very strong arguments supporting the claim that the plaintiff has against her will been subject to sexual assault", the court writes, and then it goes on to say why Max should still be acqitted.
It is because the young woman in the police interviews had difficulties finding words to describe for instance vaginal intercourse, finding words for whether it happened from the front or from behind, and other things in the sexual world of which she knows nothing. It is because she said herself that she was confused when she met the police and did not really understand what had happened.
"These memory problems" and unclear statements regarding whether the penetration occured from the front or from behind "calls into question whether the plaitiff's memories are altogether correct".
Max is acquitted because the girl's "modes of expression might have been difficult to interpret". Ergo: Because the girl was so weired it was impossible for Max to understand that she—who never allows any form of touch—was not willing.
Here the court of appeal opens for a new take on consent. The mentally ill, the retarded, the demented, or others with "modes of expression difficult to interpret" simply have to accept being raped because the layers do not think that they say no in the right way.
Håkan Hydén and Karsten Åström are professors in sociology of law at Lund university. Their view is that legal decision making primarily means interpreting social reality and secondarily the law. In a debate article they write that in 75 percent of all trials the main issue is the essessment of testimonies and the ability to understand the situation surrounding the legal matter (Sydsvenska Dagbladet, 13 March, 2012).
All people have prejudices. And all people are governed by them.
In order to make rational decisions one must first be aware of one's own thoughts, images and conceptions.
The guild of judges as a whole seem moderately interested in this. Instead they go on interpreting reality from their own frames of reference. Without understanding the fact that this is happening.
Hanne Kjöller
hanne.kjoller@dn.se |
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Yes! We have no bananas. |
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Keeno
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 09, 2006
Posts: 4948
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Wow, just wow.
Sweden - legal to rape an Aspie? Please tell me it's not true.
I imagine it is due though to the judges' limited knowledge and views on Asperger's and other disabilities, rather than being legal to rape.
But to say they will just have to accept being raped?
Rape is rape!
I worry about some of the news stories I see coming out of Sweden, more so than other countries, with the way they handle things like political correctness and court procedures. It just seems like it might be an unlivable country for someone like me, as it sounds way too easy to put your foot in it from some of the stuff I hear.
An interesting thing I found out recently is regarding "dyschronicity" (Google it if you are curious) but basically the study identifies Sweden as the most advanced country in terms of "values", lifeways, "freedom", "human rights" and moving away from traditions. Other countries, then, are compared with Sweden in terms of how many years behind they are. For example the UK is somewhere between 20 and 50 years behind. So we could be like Sweden in 20 years, and it makes me worry. |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26039
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Keeno wrote: | | So we could be like Sweden in 20 years, and it makes me worry. |
Agreed. I shudder at the thought. |
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MikaelL
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: May 20, 2008
Age: 43
Posts: 32
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Parts of the courtpapers more correctly translated (thanks to weasley of aspergerforum.se)
| Quote: | This information should be considered together with what P.R. [long time clinician, specializing in ASD and A:s doctor] testified about A:s established and documented difficulties, which includes an extreme reluctancy to engage in any physical contact with anybody, and she shys away when anyone in the surroundings tries to make physical contact with her, like a friendly pat on the shoulder. Even though A had consumed alcohol, which she most likely is not familiar with, it appears unreasonably unlikely that her disorders and reluctancy towards physical contact should make such a profound change in her behaviour that she should engage in the behaviour described by J.P. [the accused] and especially with a total stranger.Considering these statements from P.R., the story of J.P. is regarded as obviously truthless.
Regarding the just mentioned statements, Tingsrätten trusts the description of the events from A and concludes that it is without doubts established that J.P. forced A into this chain of events with violence and threats of more violence. Tingsrätten goes with the prosecutor and this deed is to be regarded as rape. |
| Quote: | In conclusion, Hovrätten is aware that there are strong reasons to believe that A against her will has been subject to sexual abuse.
On the other hand she has some hesitations in her statements, adding the fact that her expressions might have been hard to interpret for J.P. and there is also no independent proof that gives A:s story enough support. This makes it impossible to judge without doubts that J.P. consciously forced intercourse upon her in the way the prosecutor claims.
The indictment is therefore to be dismissed. |
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MrXxx
Moderator/Enigmatus Paradoxius
Joined: May 12, 2010
Posts: 5678
Location: New England
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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There is more to this story. Bloggers often tend to put only their own take on a situation into their postings, so I dug a little deeper.
http://www.fark.com/cgi/go.pl?i=7012089&s=1
There doesn't seem to be a whole not more in depth information about this case that's very easy to find on the web. Not yet anyway.
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MrXxx is taking a long sabbatical, and no longer moderating. |
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psychegots
Deinonychus
Joined: Oct 04, 2011
Posts: 338
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| MrXxx wrote: | There is more to this story. Bloggers often tend to put only their own take on a situation into their postings, so I dug a little deeper.
http://www.fark.com/cgi/go.pl?i=7012089&s=1
There doesn't seem to be a whole not more in depth information about this case that's very easy to find on the web. Not yet anyway. |
Whaat? That is not the same case?!
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Check out my new AS blog: www.norwayaspie.blogspot.com/ |
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webcam
Velociraptor
Joined: Feb 09, 2012
Posts: 427
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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I have a hard time understanding how someone would have trouble reading a "no." I think Sweden is just playing games.
Of course, if it's not just games being played, there is the very slight possibility that he really misunderstood her. The fact that she was overly sheltered certainly doesn't help matters in determining what intent there was. So without actually being there for the trial it's difficult for any of us to really know. Either way, if no is what she expressed in her way, she was raped, but can the guy be held responsible for misinterpreting her if her signals are foreign to him. Depends on the signals she gave and whether given his experience he could be expected to understand them.
It thus becomes important to ensure that aspies are taught how NTs communicate so they know how to say and interpret signals as yes or no. I'm leaning toward isolation as a primary cause of this problem. The poor girl should have been taught how to better handle the situation, not just be locked up in a mental institution. |
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DIProgan
Hummingbird
Joined: Jun 23, 2010
Age: 34
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Sure you could consider if her actions could be missinterpreted but his actions sure as hell cannot. He threatens her with becoming violent if she tries to get away. Anyone failing to see that his intent is to scare her into a submissive state so he can rape her is blind or stupid and probably both. |
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