What is this called? - LGBT Discussion

WP Members: > 70,000

New Today: 24
New Yesterday: 29

What is this called?

Previous 1, 2, 3 Next

Wrong Planet Autism Forum Index -> LGBT Discussion

starkid
Phoenix
Phoenix

Joined: Feb 10, 2012
Age: 32
Posts: 730
Location: California Bay Area

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:13 am Post subject:

Sweetleaf wrote:

This is kind of why I deleted my first one...to avoid someone trying to totally dis-validate how I'm feeling about this and that its been kind of an issue for me......I just hardly talk about it because I prefer to avoid people reacting that way.

How did I disvalidate your feelings? I didn't say anything about the feelings you are having in that post you quoted. I was talking about the misuse of words, not your feelings.

starkid
Phoenix
Phoenix

Joined: Feb 10, 2012
Age: 32
Posts: 730
Location: California Bay Area

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:15 am Post subject:

Rauhiss wrote:

It's identifying more with the societal construct of "masculinity"[\quote]
Then why call it "male"?

Kail
Deinonychus

Joined: Feb 24, 2011
Age: 21
Posts: 373
Location: MEXICO

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:16 am Post subject:

I could die tomorrow,... The only wrong... is humanity as a whole. _________________

mushroo
Velociraptor

Joined: Sep 15, 2011
Posts: 492

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:18 am Post subject:

This is totally normal. Everybody has a masculine and a feminine side to their personality. Karl Jung called them "anima and animus" and believed that if you try to repress them, they will speak to you through your dreams. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_and_animus

Rauhiss
Raven
Raven

Joined: Mar 26, 2012
Age: 21
Posts: 100

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:29 am Post subject:

starkid wrote:

Then why call it "male"?

Because that's what more people are going to recognize it as.
Popmedia has so meshed the physical sex and socially-constructed gender that most people don't realize they're separate things, so it's usually easier to just use the the words they'll understand.
You can call it an Automatic Teller Machine or Magnetic Resonance Imaging, but more people are going to understand ATM and MRI.

Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Phoenix

Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:11 am Post subject: Re: A Rant

starkid wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

I mean its nothing about gender roles that makes me uncomfortable its just I don't feel like I am the gender I am.

I guess I have to ask you to say what you mean by gender then. The only "gender" I know is the separate gender roles males and females are generally expected to fit into.

Well I mean I don't feel like my psychological gender nessisarly matches my physical gender....but I am not sure that I have a male brain necessarily or if I just don't have a specific psychological gender or not...but yeah its confusing to me so sorry if I am not explaining things very well.

Quote:

I am not exactly talking about gender roles.....I mean for instance to fit the male role you don't wear make up, well my brother wears make up and he still views himself as just as much of a male.

I think you don't understand what I mean by "gender roles." Gender roles are things that are forced on people by their society, regardless of what the individual wants. There is typically one for females and one for males, and they are generally very different. When people don't play by the rules, they get treated like trash. Your brother is definitely stepping outside the male gender role if he is wearing make-up. It's not about how he feels; there is a "rule" that males don't wear make-up (differs somewhat from society to society). If he goes into part of his society where they take those rules very seriously, he could get dirty looks or even physically attacked. That's what I'm talking about.

Yes I know that, but what I am saying is not everyone feels uncomfortable one when refers to them as their gender? like my brother would not cringe if my mom got him a book for guys with depression(because he doesn't feel like one...like I did when she got me a book for women with aspergers. If that makes sense.

Quote:

I don't know I guess its more of a feeling of being sort of uncomfortable in my physical body......but as I said before I don't want to change that I just don't want to identify as it...

I'm not sure what it means to identify as your "physical body." Maybe you mean, you don't want it to be a big deal that you are female? Like, it's just your body, not the total of who you are?

Kind of, but its more not even perceiving myself as a female.........though I am one. so its a very weird feeling to me, as I don't really know what to do with it or why I have it.
_________________
It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream.

Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Phoenix

Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:13 am Post subject:

starkid wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

How did I disvalidate your feelings? I didn't say anything about the feelings you are having in that post you quoted. I was talking about the misuse of words, not your feelings.

Well it seemed like you where forcing that "You're female whether you like it or not!' and its actually kind of a sensitive topic for me believe it or not. So I guess it just seemed kind of aggressive and like 'you're right, I'm wrong' so sorry if that wasn't they way you where trying to come off, I do take things a bit personally sometimes.
_________________
It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream.

Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Phoenix

Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:16 am Post subject:

mushroo wrote:

This is totally normal. Everybody has a masculine and a feminine side to their personality. Karl Jung called them "anima and animus" and believed that if you try to repress them, they will speak to you through your dreams.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_and_animus

I know its normal to have a masculine and feminine side, but i don't think that was quite what I'm describing. I mean I don't even try to repress anything about that I just don't understand the discomfort I feel about being a female specifically, that strikes me as kind of odd rather then normal. But yeah I've worn guys clothes since I was a kid so I don't think I was suppressing any masculinity and I don't try to deny any feminine aspects of myself.

if only things like this where easier to explain...
_________________
It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream.

Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Phoenix

Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:35 am Post subject:

Rauhiss wrote:

starkid wrote:

Then why call it "male"?

That is kind of what i was thinking, I mean I am not exactly well educated in this sort of thing, so I really only have the terms I am aware of to work with. I mean just feeling how I feel is confusing enough without trying to describe it without using words like male, female, gender and such.
_________________
It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream.

hanyo
Phoenix
Phoenix

Joined: Oct 01, 2011
Posts: 3455

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:34 am Post subject:

That's one thing I like about the internet. Most of the time on the internet I don't know other people's genders and they don't know mine. I don't really feel like a girl but I don't know if I really feel like a guy either.

techn0teen
Phoenix
Phoenix

Joined: Sep 15, 2010
Age: 21
Posts: 663

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:55 pm Post subject:

starkid wrote:

This is exactly the type of mixing up of ideas that I was talking about. It is like people don't realize that they are implying that there is some magical thing called "male" or "female" that is all in our heads. It is not possible to "identify" as male.

This is not universally true. Transgender people identify as male or female. We often feel we are trapped in the opposite body so of course we identify as the opposite reproductive sex to our own.

starkid wrote:

What would it even mean to identify as a reproductive sex? Because that is ALL that male is, a reproductive sex.

For me, a transman, identifying as a reproductive sex is how I feel comfortable in my own skin. My brain formed itself in expectation of male genitalia, chest, and hormones. And, well, my body went the opposite way. Identifying s male keeps my sanity.

starkid wrote:

There is no other thing called "male" that is about feelings and thoughts.

Being a reproductive male (or a transitioned male), you have some secondary sex characteristics that give you different way of expressing feelings and thoughts. For one, testosterone makes it harder to restrain anger. You have to be pumped by both sex hormones to understand this. One also thinks about sex more.

starkid wrote:

Sweatleaf is female, therefore all her knowledge of maleness is second-hand. How could she identify as something she is not, and cannot know what it is like? What sense would that make?

Swatleaf is not a reproductive sex (therefore, why call Swatleaf female? Having female parts is only one aspect of Swatlead). No one is necessarily their reproductive sex. Please don't assume this.

And just because one does not have a penis (or maleness) doesn't mean one doesn't know what it is like. For example, most transmen have a phantom limb syndrome and feel an actual penis there despite having a female anatomy. This is because our brains hardwired themselves in expectation of having a penis. Kind of like how your brain hardwired itself into thinking it had an arm and then, when it gets cut off, the brain keeps insisting it is there even when its not.

starkid
Phoenix
Phoenix

Joined: Feb 10, 2012
Age: 32
Posts: 730
Location: California Bay Area

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:54 pm Post subject:

techn0teen wrote:

This is not universally true. Transgender people identify as male or female. We often feel we are trapped in the opposite body so of course we identify as the opposite reproductive sex to our own.

I see; however, you are using the word "identify" in a way that is kind of a departure from what it typically means. Therein lies my confusion.

starkid wrote:

There is no other thing called "male" that is about feelings and thoughts.

Quote:

First of all, the secondary sex characteristics that males naturally experience versus the artificially-induced effects of medical transition? They are not exactly the same. Also, this doesn't address what I said, which is still true: There is no other thing called "male" that is about feelings and thoughts. You seem to have trouble telling the difference between what is male by definition, and ways that males tend to be. They may tend to be angry and horny or have whatever hormonal states, but angriness and horniness is not what <i>defines</i> males as males. Thus, the males who are not typically angry and horny are still male, by virtue of biology ALONE, and the females people who may have all the emotions typical to males are still not male, by virtue of biology ALONE. Furthermore, I don't know what you mean by "pumped", but I, and other females ARE driven by both sex hormones. Females have naturally occurring testosterone.

starkid wrote:

Sweatleaf is female, therefore all her knowledge of maleness is second-hand. How could she identify as something she is not, and cannot know what it is Having alike? What sense would that make?

Quote:

Swatleaf is not a reproductive sex (therefore, why call Swatleaf female? Having female parts is only one aspect of Swatlead).

Common English. Saying someone is female is shorthand for saying she is a female human being. It's obvious that having female parts is only one aspect of Sweatleaf, what is the point of such a question? Having Asperger's is only one aspect of her as well (accorging to her), but would you ask me the same if I referred to her only as someone with Asperger's? I can't encompass every single aspect of a person in a single forum post.

Quote:

No one is necessarily their reproductive sex. Please don't assume this.

What you are saying makes no sense, but I guess I shouldn't expect it to since you seem to use words to mean whatever you want them to. Sweatleaf herself said she was female. That's how I know, and I merely repeated the fact to make a point.

Quote:

And just because one does not have a penis (or maleness) doesn't mean one doesn't know what it is like.

Yes it does. Goddess, you are confused or something. Or saying these things to keep your sanity, like you mentioned above.

Quote:

For example, most transmen have a phantom limb syndrome and feel an actual penis there despite having a female anatomy.

First of all, phantom limb syndrome is something experienced by people who have had a body part and lost it, not people who never had it to begin with. Again, you are making up your own definitions for terms. Second of all, there is no way to truly know the visceral feeling of having body parts one has never had. Transmen may think they are feeling what males are feeling, but they have no way of being sure of that. Experiencing the presence of a body part and feeling as if one should have that body part are not the same thing.

starkid
Phoenix
Phoenix

Joined: Feb 10, 2012
Age: 32
Posts: 730
Location: California Bay Area

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:17 pm Post subject:

Rauhiss wrote:

starkid wrote:

Then why call it "male"?

That is a really bad analogy. ATM is just another way of saying Automatic Teller Machine, but masculine is not just another way of saying male, which is part of the point I was making earlier: that reinforcing the false equation of maleness and masculinity is reinforcing the same idea that gets the non-masculine males beaten up for being "sissies" and "faggots." It is an evil idea, and anyone who would use it is the enemy of all gender-nonconforming people. It may be easier (although I doubt that because most people are going to be confused if a female tells them she identifies as male, regardless of what she means), but that is no excuse.

CrazyCatLord
Phoenix
Phoenix

Joined: Oct 25, 2011
Posts: 2177

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: A Rant

starkid wrote:

NO NO NO! This issue seems to be coming up more and more lately, and it is driving me crazy. You are mixing up biological sex and gender roles. Nobody "feels" male or female because they are not feelings, and there are no feelings inherent to either. ....

And you are mixing up gender roles and gender identity, imho. Biological sex, gender identity, sexual orientation and cultural gender roles are four entirely different things. Most people have a clear gender identity / body image and strongly identify as either male or female, which doesn't always match their biological sex. They might reject traditional gender roles, as most people do nowadays, but they nonetheless feel either feminine or masculine.

People without a clear-cut gender identity are referred to as genderqueer, which is an umbrella term for bigender, genderfluid, other-gendered, and agender people. Bigender people identify with both genders. Genderfluid people go through frequent gender identity changes and might feel male today and female tomorrow. Other-gendered people have a gender identity outside of the gender binary, such as the Indian and Pakistani hijras or the Thai kathoeys (the Western equivalent would be a pre-op transsexual who is happy with his or her intermediary state and doesn't desire GRS). And agender people have no gender identity at all.