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auntblabby
Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
Posts: 18236
Location: the island of loveable toy humans
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 Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| Joker wrote: | | auntblabby wrote: | | Joker wrote: | If I was to die I would want to come back as a snake  |
transmigration from higher to lower spiritual forms is a no-no. people way smarter than me say that life evolves forwards towards a greater goal. |
True but say I was a bad person I guess coming back as a snake would make since no? |
many [including edgar cayce] say that one who victimized another person in one lifetime, would come back as a victim in the next lifetime. becoming a snake would represent an ineffective vehicle with which to atone for one's past evil acts, because a snake lacks the cognitive ability to feel human emotions and to think about the consequences of one's human actions. that is the main reason transmigration to lower forms is not a good idea. |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| auntblabby wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | auntblabby wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | If I was to die I would want to come back as a snake |
transmigration from higher to lower spiritual forms is a no-no. people way smarter than me say that life evolves forwards towards a greater goal. |
True but say I was a bad person I guess coming back as a snake would make since no? |
many [including edgar cayce] say that one who victimized another person in one lifetime, would come back as a victim in the next lifetime. becoming a snake would represent an ineffective vehicle with which to atone for one's past evil acts, because a snake lacks the cognitive ability to feel human emotions and to think about the consequences of one's human actions. that is the main reason transmigration to lower forms is not a good idea. |
Didn't think about it that way hm it makes since to come back as a victim if you did victimize some one in a previous life I just love snakes I guess that's why I said that I mean they are so feared and respected not a lot of other land animals are that scary other then giant saltwater crocs. |
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auntblabby
Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
Posts: 18236
Location: the island of loveable toy humans
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| Joker wrote: | | Didn't think about it that way hm it makes since to come back as a victim if you did victimize some one in a previous life I just love snakes I guess that's why I said that I mean they are so feared and respected not a lot of other land animals are that scary other then giant saltwater crocs. |
there is a hypnotist whose name escapes me now, who makes quite a good living hypnotically regressing people to previous incarnations as well as to the in-between state between lifetimes, where in one of the higher cosmic schools spirits get to temporarily indwell within lower lifeforms for educational purposes. he wrote two books about it, and my old fartness cannot remember the titles of those, either  i have 'em both but i cannot find them in my mess  |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| Ah dang those sound like books worth reading out of pure curosity I have a lot of while books in my collection the wildest is about celtic druidism. |
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Shatbat
Fénix
Joined: Feb 20, 2012
Age: 20
Posts: 4080
Location: South America
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| bizboy1 wrote: |
Also, I think you are misinterpreting infinity. If the probability of an event goes to zero, it's not going to happen. This may be the case with consciousness. Not only that but there are constraints that nature gives us that further complicates these types of questions. My reasoning had to do with probabilities > 0, which may not be the case. If the universe isn't infinite (I've heard it isn't) or a set of infinite sets (parallel/multiverse) and each universe had the same properties needed for our consciousness, then this may never be the case (I think). |
Well, all I said there was based on the assumptions:
1) There is a non-zero probability of reincarnation, because if I gained consciousness once, I just might gain it again.
2) The universe is infinite, or there is an infinite amount of universes.
That's actually a lot like yours, I actually used it to help convey my point better, but this is what I meant. Reminds me of the infinite monkey theorem, anything that can happen is bound to happen given an infinite amount of time. If my assumptions are false, well then, I couldn't be so sure about it. And I'm not sure about them being true anyway so... there you go.
| CrazyCatLord wrote: | Even if there was an exact copy of your consciousness at some point in the future, it wouldn't be you, meaning that you wouldn't experience that person's life.
Imagine there was an exact duplicate of you. Right now, standing next to you. Would you see the world through four eyes and think with two brains? Would you be in two places at once if your duplicate left the room? Of course not. You -- the conscious, self-aware individual -- is a product of the one single brain that resides within your skull. You can't experience the life of other individuals, no matter how much they have in common with you. |
That consciousness problem reminds me of why would I never use a teleporting device if there ever is one. How would I know my consciousness gets preserved at the other side?
Ugh, I almost need a cigarrette right now.
_________________
Verily I have often laughed at weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws. - Nietzsche |
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Tadzio
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 03, 2009
Age: 60
Posts: 877
Location: Banned-4-Epilepsy, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:26 am Post subject: Re: Reincarnation Mathematically/Physically Possible? |
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| bizboy1 wrote: | Has anyone else thought about reincarnation (for lack of a better word)? Does anyone have a physical explanation that differs from a mathematical one?
Also, side note: Is anyone interested in quantum consciousness? |
Since zero implies infinity, any nothingness in physics implies infinity in physics (watch out for the trap of relativities, as in "zero motion compared to what?", as even concepts of rotations run into trouble, and temperatures have fleeting & mysterious "limits").
"Nietzsche's Philosophy of the Eternal Recurrence of the Same" by Karl Löwith, sounds like a fun book, but the price keeps going up, and does "the Same" accept any possible as possible perturbations?
Then as a part self-quote:
It was said of Siger of Brabant (1235?-?1281):
"Led like Vico and Nietzsche by the fascination of logic, Siger played with the dismal doctrine of eternal recurrence: since (he argued) all earthly events are ultimately determined by stellar combinations, and the number of these possible combinations is finite, each combination must be exactly repeated again and again in an infinity of time, and must bring in its train the same effects as before; 'the same species' will return, 'the same opinions, laws, religions.'" "The Age of Faith" by Will Durant (1950), page 957.
Top this off with transcendental (non-algebraic) numbers, with Cantor Sets, and get ready for every variating permutation also repeated for infinity, whether in terms of time or temperature. If infinity is denied, zero is also denied.
I try to monitor "Persinger quantum" with google to keep up on his & related "conscious/quantum" models, but IMO neurological brain events are big and crude compared to very small and fine quantum events (the other stuff is more like "random" thermodynamic model phenomena that's not the strangely true "quantum" (where statistical mechanics starts to follow different rules from the classical)). Perform the trick of controlling a crookes radiometer with your thoughts changing your face temperature, then since all explanations using statistical mechanics are somewhat flawed in the explanations of Crookes radiometer (Einstein also failed here), blame quantum mechanical phenomena???
Tadzio |
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bizboy1
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 24, 2012
Posts: 945
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Reincarnation Mathematically/Physically Possible? |
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| Tadzio wrote: | | bizboy1 wrote: | Has anyone else thought about reincarnation (for lack of a better word)? Does anyone have a physical explanation that differs from a mathematical one?
Also, side note: Is anyone interested in quantum consciousness? |
Since zero implies infinity, any nothingness in physics implies infinity in physics (watch out for the trap of relativities, as in "zero motion compared to what?", as even concepts of rotations run into trouble, and temperatures have fleeting & mysterious "limits").
"Nietzsche's Philosophy of the Eternal Recurrence of the Same" by Karl Löwith, sounds like a fun book, but the price keeps going up, and does "the Same" accept any possible as possible perturbations?
Then as a part self-quote:
It was said of Siger of Brabant (1235?-?1281):
"Led like Vico and Nietzsche by the fascination of logic, Siger played with the dismal doctrine of eternal recurrence: since (he argued) all earthly events are ultimately determined by stellar combinations, and the number of these possible combinations is finite, each combination must be exactly repeated again and again in an infinity of time, and must bring in its train the same effects as before; 'the same species' will return, 'the same opinions, laws, religions.'" "The Age of Faith" by Will Durant (1950), page 957.
Top this off with transcendental (non-algebraic) numbers, with Cantor Sets, and get ready for every variating permutation also repeated for infinity, whether in terms of time or temperature. If infinity is denied, zero is also denied.
I try to monitor "Persinger quantum" with google to keep up on his & related "conscious/quantum" models, but IMO neurological brain events are big and crude compared to very small and fine quantum events (the other stuff is more like "random" thermodynamic model phenomena that's not the strangely true "quantum" (where statistical mechanics starts to follow different rules from the classical)). Perform the trick of controlling a crookes radiometer with your thoughts changing your face temperature, then since all explanations using statistical mechanics are somewhat flawed in the explanations of Crookes radiometer (Einstein also failed here), blame quantum mechanical phenomena???
Tadzio |
How does zero imply infinity? I'm confused. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14834
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Reincarnation Mathematically/Physically Possible? |
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| Chronos wrote: |
Re-incarnating a person is technically a matter of properly arranging the information. So conceptually it's not impossible. It does not violate any of the laws of the universe. However we certainly don't have the technology to implement this, let alone the technology to fully understand the order in which the information needs to be arranged.
But if we could, is this you? |
This is also at the heart of the question of whether you could 'transport' a person Star Trek style - yes and no; you could have an exact likeness assembled at the other side but there's no way of knowing that it is or isn't them and much the same they'd likely have no way of knowing. |
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bizboy1
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 24, 2012
Posts: 945
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Reincarnation Mathematically/Physically Possible? |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | Chronos wrote: |
Re-incarnating a person is technically a matter of properly arranging the information. So conceptually it's not impossible. It does not violate any of the laws of the universe. However we certainly don't have the technology to implement this, let alone the technology to fully understand the order in which the information needs to be arranged.
But if we could, is this you? |
This is also at the heart of the question of whether you could 'transport' a person Star Trek style - yes and no; you could have an exact likeness assembled at the other side but there's no way of knowing that it is or isn't them and much the same they'd likely have no way of knowing. |
They would be the same person but just different atoms. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14834
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Reincarnation Mathematically/Physically Possible? |
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| bizboy1 wrote: | | techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | Chronos wrote: |
Re-incarnating a person is technically a matter of properly arranging the information. So conceptually it's not impossible. It does not violate any of the laws of the universe. However we certainly don't have the technology to implement this, let alone the technology to fully understand the order in which the information needs to be arranged.
But if we could, is this you? |
This is also at the heart of the question of whether you could 'transport' a person Star Trek style - yes and no; you could have an exact likeness assembled at the other side but there's no way of knowing that it is or isn't them and much the same they'd likely have no way of knowing. |
They would be the same person but just different atoms. |
But are they the same instance of conciousness? There's a real good chance that putting yourself in a transporter is sending yourself to nonexistance when the switch is flipped. |
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bizboy1
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 24, 2012
Posts: 945
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Reincarnation Mathematically/Physically Possible? |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | bizboy1 wrote: | | techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | Chronos wrote: |
Re-incarnating a person is technically a matter of properly arranging the information. So conceptually it's not impossible. It does not violate any of the laws of the universe. However we certainly don't have the technology to implement this, let alone the technology to fully understand the order in which the information needs to be arranged.
But if we could, is this you? |
This is also at the heart of the question of whether you could 'transport' a person Star Trek style - yes and no; you could have an exact likeness assembled at the other side but there's no way of knowing that it is or isn't them and much the same they'd likely have no way of knowing. |
They would be the same person but just different atoms. |
But are they the same instance of conciousness? There's a real good chance that putting yourself in a transporter is sending yourself to nonexistance when the switch is flipped. |
True, but then also you should come back. At least that's what I think.  I like the idea that our body is a receiver of consciousness. So if the receiver is shut off and turned back on immediately it shouldn't be that bad. The problem is how the hell are they gonna scan and replicate the trillions and trillions of atoms/cells. It would suck if you spawned without a head or the machine broke or the data was wiped! |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14834
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: Reincarnation Mathematically/Physically Possible? |
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| bizboy1 wrote: | | I like the idea that our body is a receiver of consciousness. |
Interesting take. What would that make it (consiousness) though?
| bizboy1 wrote: | | It would suck if you spawned without a head or the machine broke or the data was wiped! |
Errr yeah, you'd be in Barney. |
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bizboy1
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 24, 2012
Posts: 945
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Reincarnation Mathematically/Physically Possible? |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | bizboy1 wrote: | | I like the idea that our body is a receiver of consciousness. |
Interesting take. What would that make it (consiousness) though?
| bizboy1 wrote: | | It would suck if you spawned without a head or the machine broke or the data was wiped! |
Errr yeah, you'd be in Barney. |
I don't know. I believe consciousness is not derived from materialism alone. That's why I'm so interested in quantum applications/explanation of consciousness. I used to be a materialist/atheist until I had an "enlightenment" from cannabis. A lot of people who study psychedelics believe that the human brain is a receiver of consciousness. After having my experience, listening to Amit Goswami speak, watching DMT: Spiritual Molecule and hearing near death experiences similar to mine, I found this to make sense. Maybe god is consciousness, I don't know. Maybe consciousness is energy, I don't know. I don't know much, but I find existence to be too weird now. Why do we exist as opposed to not existing? I remember trying to prove god didn't exist while high, and I kept going into infinite loops and getting logical inconsistencies or fallacies. To me god is an energy, an intelligent entity; the matrix, the computer, the software, and the programmer (in human terms); something that cannot be explained with logic. It sounds crazy. I wouldn't believe it too. I guess you have to experience it to believe it. I liken my experience to the BSG quote: "To know the face of god is to know madness." You become super aware. You open your third eye! |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14834
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Reincarnation Mathematically/Physically Possible? |
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| bizboy1 wrote: | | I don't know. I believe consciousness is not derived from materialism alone. That's why I'm so interested in quantum applications/explanation of consciousness. I used to be a materialist/atheist until I had an "enlightenment" from cannabis. A lot of people who study psychedelics believe that the human brain is a receiver of consciousness. After having my experience, listening to Amit Goswami speak, watching DMT: Spiritual Molecule and hearing near death experiences similar to mine, I found this to make sense. Maybe god is consciousness, I don't know. Maybe consciousness is energy, I don't know. I don't know much, but I find existence to be too weird now. Why do we exist as opposed to not existing? I remember trying to prove god didn't exist while high, and I kept going into infinite loops and getting logical inconsistencies or fallacies. To me god is an energy, an intelligent entity; the matrix, the computer, the software, and the programmer (in human terms); something that cannot be explained with logic. It sounds crazy. I wouldn't believe it too. I guess you have to experience it to believe it. I liken my experience to the BSG quote: "To know the face of god is to know madness." You become super aware. You open your third eye! |
Make no mistake, I've had my fair share of quite mystical experiences with things like LSD, mushrooms, mescaline, I've tried a lot of other stuff as well. My general take on consciousness tends to say its not the machine, its not energy, but it is product of a reaction between the two. The only thing I don't fully understand is when I've had experiences of things like....I don't know....flashbacks from ancient times? It seems like the profound and religious elements that happen with hallucinogens are the walls between your conscious and subconscious mind breaking down and in a lot of ways I've kind of come to understand that the conscious self that I know is only a tenth of what the subconscious is in depth (for people who've heard half my ramblings that might be saying a lot).
With my most recent such 'assisted' experience though I did kind of get behind my conscious state and see consciousness as a bit of a wave form, ie. the flat line on a heart monitor seems pretty close to it - that the flat line is non consciousness and non-sentience, that consciousness is a disturbance in some kind of flat line where something is getting pulled through (in our case that comes via the needs of the human body). Whether that's just a fascinating way to look at it but still irrelevant to whether its purely a materialistic event or not - I don't know. If such evidence comes or can be tapped that consciousness is a third party I'd love to see it because, being a full materialist is something of an exercise in cynicism/nihilism when it comes to evaluating the ultimate quality of one's own emotions, struggles, quests, searches, etc. and its really something that phrases things like this - its already done, its already over, there's no purpose, and we're essentially death and decay in motion until we become death and decay in full actuality. |
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Robdemanc
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Joined: May 31, 2010
Posts: 2293
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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This is an interesting topic. I have been interested in NDE's for about a year and watched a few youtube videos about them. The best documentary was the BBC Horizon The Day I Died. It talks about quantum consciousness.
If people physically die but are then brought back to life and remember an experience I think it gives credence to a spiritual side of life. I find it hard to shake the notion that there is an I inside, and I don't reckon that the I is just an illusion.
I believe in infinity, so reckon there will be another experience that I either take part in or have to myself (whatever myself is). I often think what it would be like to be an individual plant cell, or a bird, or a grain of sand. I often wonder if atoms and particles have a consciousness. |
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