hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
Location: with bucephalus
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 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | | Dox47 wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | I never understood why people are so against feminists. |
Most likely they met a few of the obnoxious ones that give the majority of them a bad name. Bad impressions seem to be more lasting than good ones, and every group has its members that make very bad impressions. |
I have mentioned it before, but I met one young woman who I think fits more under the descriptor "supremacist" (which some seem to equate all feminism to). Or "insane", as I am more inclined to believe (she looked at me with a straight face once and told me she sent a letter to the prime minister every day). She firmly believed that males were impure humans who were corrupted by the Y chromosome, which was a necessary evil left over from pre-sapient life, but no longer as males can be replaced by advanced cloning techniques, and women make better lovers. She also said that women [Sentence pre-removed for mods as it contains numerous sexually explicit things]. This woman's views figure prominently into my satire of feminism when I feel that urge, and I believe I might be able to make a passable dystopian steam punk story based on the premise of the future she provided me |
and yet... you don't hate feminists? interesting.
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Ancalagon
Computer Geek
Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 2387
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| Dox47 wrote: | | Cornflake wrote: | | TM wrote: | | It's kind of how that "7000 words per post dude" keeps equating "normal" porn with child porn and movies of actual rape. |
I know who you're referring to and warn you that this is drifting very close to being an attack on another member.
Please reduce the hyperbole. |
Which part is the problem Cornflake, calling the guy wordy or saying he makes invalid comparisons? I really want to know, since one isn't really an insult and the other is more of an opinion than an attack. |
I think the problem was with the way "7000 words per post dude" was phrased. I don't think TM meant it in a bad way, and I don't think aghogday took it badly, so I don't think there's a real problem.
But it was referring to a personal characteristic of a poster in a way that *could* have been taken as an insult.
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Dox47
Consigliere
Joined: Jan 29, 2008
Posts: 5177
Location: Seattle Area
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| Ancalagon wrote: | I think the problem was with the way "7000 words per post dude" was phrased. I don't think TM meant it in a bad way, and I don't think aghogday took it badly, so I don't think there's a real problem.
But it was referring to a personal characteristic of a poster in a way that *could* have been taken as an insult. |
Just seems a bit thin to trigger a mod rebuke, especially in PPR.
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Cornflake
Rattles when shaken
Joined: Oct 31, 2010
Posts: 30170
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:46 am Post subject: |
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^^ Pretty much for the reasons Ancalagon stated (including the belittling tone and the implication that ahogday believes "normal" porn includes child porn and movies of actual rape, so are therefore deemed acceptable), and why I only said it was "drifting very close".
I'd also received a complaint about it.
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myth
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 17, 2011
Age: 27
Posts: 707
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Well as a person who has been "anti-feminist" on this and other threads I'd like to say that my personal viewpoints on gender equality movements do not stem from any single encounter with a radical. My viewpoint is based on my own observations of the real people I meet on a daily basis, my own analysis of cultural trends, and the media representations of the issue.
There are some really insane radicals out there, I'm sure but even the somewhat reasonable people on this thread I typically disagree with so the outlandish insane people really have nothing to do with my viewpoint, personally.
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Last edited by myth on Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ArrantPariah
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 31, 2012
Posts: 4792
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:20 am Post subject: |
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Discipline is especially key to a discussion of feminism.
Anyway, congratulations on making it to the hundredth page without locking the thread.
Here is some more material that might contribute to the debates:
http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/29/gop-strategist-castellanos-and-msnbcs-maddow-spar-over-gender-pay-gap/
The gentleman in the debate does raise a good point:
If I am a selecting official, and must choose between 2 equally qualified and equally productive candidates, one is a man and one is a woman, and I only have to pay the woman 75% of what I would have to pay the man, then I should select the woman.
In fact, if men and women are equally productive, and women are paid 25% less, then employers should fire all of their men and hire only women, as Hugh Hefner does.
If it is true that women are paid 3/4 of what men are paid for the same job, then male employees must be at least 1/3 more productive. Otherwise, there would be no point in hiring men at all. |
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TM
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Cornflake wrote: | ^^ Pretty much for the reasons Ancalagon stated (including the belittling tone and the implication that ahogday believes "normal" porn includes child porn and movies of actual rape, so are therefore deemed acceptable), and why I only said it was "drifting very close".
I'd also received a complaint about it. |
In all fairness, he did make that comparison several times in the "Is porn degrading" thread in Adult autism issues. |
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Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 12088
Location: La belle province
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| ArrantPariah wrote: | If I am a selecting official, and must choose between 2 equally qualified and equally productive candidates, one is a man and one is a woman, and I only have to pay the woman 75% of what I would have to pay the man, then I should select the woman.
In fact, if men and women are equally productive, and women are paid 25% less, then employers should fire all of their men and hire only women, as Hugh Hefner does.
If it is true that women are paid 3/4 of what men are paid for the same job, then male employees must be at least 1/3 more productive. Otherwise, there would be no point in hiring men at all. |
Thus the core of the issue is exposed: Dey tuk'r job!
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You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
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Age: 24
Posts: 12088
Location: La belle province
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | | Dox47 wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | I never understood why people are so against feminists. |
Most likely they met a few of the obnoxious ones that give the majority of them a bad name. Bad impressions seem to be more lasting than good ones, and every group has its members that make very bad impressions. |
I have mentioned it before, but I met one young woman who I think fits more under the descriptor "supremacist" (which some seem to equate all feminism to). Or "insane", as I am more inclined to believe (she looked at me with a straight face once and told me she sent a letter to the prime minister every day). She firmly believed that males were impure humans who were corrupted by the Y chromosome, which was a necessary evil left over from pre-sapient life, but no longer as males can be replaced by advanced cloning techniques, and women make better lovers. She also said that women [Sentence pre-removed for mods as it contains numerous sexually explicit things]. This woman's views figure prominently into my satire of feminism when I feel that urge, and I believe I might be able to make a passable dystopian steam punk story based on the premise of the future she provided me |
and yet... you don't hate feminists? interesting. |
I try not to hate, instead I feel pity for those who suffer so that their world is warped to such a degree
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Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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myth
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 17, 2011
Age: 27
Posts: 707
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | | ArrantPariah wrote: | If I am a selecting official, and must choose between 2 equally qualified and equally productive candidates, one is a man and one is a woman, and I only have to pay the woman 75% of what I would have to pay the man, then I should select the woman.
In fact, if men and women are equally productive, and women are paid 25% less, then employers should fire all of their men and hire only women, as Hugh Hefner does.
If it is true that women are paid 3/4 of what men are paid for the same job, then male employees must be at least 1/3 more productive. Otherwise, there would be no point in hiring men at all. |
Thus the core of the issue is exposed: Dey tuk'r job! |
I think you missed the point.
The idea is that if it were universal that employers were confident they could pay all women less than men and yet receive the same quality of work, they'd hire exclusively women to save money. That's good business. Therefore it stands to reason that this ISN'T the case since it doesn't happen.
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Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
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Age: 24
Posts: 12088
Location: La belle province
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| myth wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | | ArrantPariah wrote: | If I am a selecting official, and must choose between 2 equally qualified and equally productive candidates, one is a man and one is a woman, and I only have to pay the woman 75% of what I would have to pay the man, then I should select the woman.
In fact, if men and women are equally productive, and women are paid 25% less, then employers should fire all of their men and hire only women, as Hugh Hefner does.
If it is true that women are paid 3/4 of what men are paid for the same job, then male employees must be at least 1/3 more productive. Otherwise, there would be no point in hiring men at all. |
Thus the core of the issue is exposed: Dey tuk'r job! |
I think you missed the point.
The idea is that if it were universal that employers were confident they could pay all women less than men and yet receive the same quality of work, they'd hire exclusively women to save money. That's good business. Therefore it stands to reason that this ISN'T the case since it doesn't happen. |
I missed no point, I was making a joke about the impending doom some men must think is coming towards their employment as hordes of women come to replace them for 75% the cost
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Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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myth
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 17, 2011
Age: 27
Posts: 707
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, I apologise then. I thought you had misinterpreted ArrantPariah's post as being a complaint about men's loss of jobs.
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Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 12088
Location: La belle province
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| myth wrote: | | Ah, I apologise then. I thought you had misinterpreted ArrantPariah's post as being a complaint about men's loss of jobs. |
No worries, I know I can be obscure sometimes
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Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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AceOfSpades
Deeds not words
Joined: Feb 12, 2006
Posts: 3647
Location: Sean Penn, Cambodia
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Joker wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | | Ancalagon wrote: | | You made an inaccurate portrayal of anti-feminists, and I called you on it. That's not sniping or an unrelated topic. |
It is not inaccurate, many anti-feminists made their view on equality very apparent. I don't particularly care if you choose to ignore or deny this |
I never understood why people are so against feminists. |
I don't necessarily hate them, I just disagree with them on a fundamental level since I am essentialistic though I will admit the self-righteous and obnoxious types do really get to me and I end up making judgments that aren't fair to the rest of those who are much more civilized about the topic. The idea that every psychological difference between the sexes simply arise because society said so is absolutely insane to me since it is founded on the idea that gender identity revolves around nothing more than a fear of not fitting in. Yes gender roles are socially constructed but social constructions don't necessarily define all the characteristics between the sexes, they simply determine how they are expressed. Kinda like how non-physical aggression within society shares much of the same patterns as primal sh** slinging but in a more civilized form.
I'm aware that social construction does blow the differences outta proportion and that not every male or female is going to consider masculinity or femininity a part of their identity, but for the most part gender roles don't just come out of nowhere and gender identity itself is not a social construction.
I remember seeing some documentary on TLC about this one dude who had his dick burned off as a result of a botched circumcision. They tried to raise him as a girl and condition it into him at a very early age to the point where he was taking some f**** up therapy sessions and had to get estrogen injections as a teen to grow tits. This is worth mentioning since radical feminists think absolutely ALL differences between the sexes, even the most basic ones, are a result of conditioning and that even seemingly natural differences are there because this conditioning happens before babies even learn how to walk. He never did identify as a girl despite all that and ended up killing himself. This is one of many reasons why I don't think gender identity is merely a social construction.
What I don't understand is why disagreeing with feminism is supposed to be out of misogyny rather than a fundamental difference in philosophical outlook. This is no different from Bush's "You're either with us or against us" crap, which I'm sure a lot of us here are repulsed by. Why don't we have the same repulsion towards labeling any dissent from feminism as misogyny then?
PS: I'm not name calling when it comes to the word "radical feminists". I'm specifically talking about feminists who believe that absolutely all differences are socially constructed, which would lead them to want radical changes in society. Anyways, I f***ing hate going through all the trouble but I guess what should go without saying doesn't when it comes to the cynical world of politics.
Last edited by AceOfSpades on Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:17 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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aghogday
KATiE MiA
Joined: Nov 26, 2010
Posts: 4735
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| TM wrote: | | Cornflake wrote: | ^^ Pretty much for the reasons Ancalagon stated (including the belittling tone and the implication that ahogday believes "normal" porn includes child porn and movies of actual rape, so are therefore deemed acceptable), and why I only said it was "drifting very close".
I'd also received a complaint about it. |
In all fairness, he did make that comparison several times in the "Is porn degrading" thread in Adult autism issues. |
NO I did not make that comparison. I clearly stated that the examples I gave of child porn and rape porn were extreme pornography, that some people in the general public fear like the plague of being exposed to. And these extreme genres of porn drives the opinion among those in the general public that porn is degrading and dehumanizing.
I rarely consider things offensive, and have never complained about anything anyone has said about me or my opinions on this site, including this comment up to this point. However, if you can't provide a quote in full context, where I made the actual comparison that "normal" porn includes child porn and movies of actual rape, so they are therefore deemed acceptable, I don't only consider it offensive, but slanderous as well.
You said I made that comparison several times, so you shouldn't have any problem providing a quote in full context. |
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