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| Would you date a guy because he has a fancy car? |
| I'll do |
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1% |
[ 1 ] |
| indifferent |
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44% |
[ 25 ] |
| I am not female/or gay. |
|
53% |
[ 30 ] |
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| Total Votes : 56 |
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myth
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 17, 2011
Age: 27
Posts: 707
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 Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Just because natural selection can occur at a sperm/egg level doesn't mean it doesn't occur at a mate-selection level.
So you don't believe in evolution then?
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| myth wrote: | Just because natural selection can occur at a sperm/egg level doesn't mean it doesn't occur at a mate-selection level.
So you don't believe in evolution then? |
it does occur at a mate selection level as well. but it isn't just based on finding a good caregiver. there are many, many other factors involved.
i believe in evolution, yes. if you do some research, you'll see that it is not as simple as you were painting it.
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myth
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 17, 2011
Age: 27
Posts: 707
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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Why does everything have to be black and white?? I said people and animals (not just women) tend to choose mates with various qualities that will help ensure the survival of their offspring. That is what evolution is at a base level. Traits that are superior for survival, reproduction, aquisition of resources, etc are propogated. Resources CAN be one of the indicators of a spuperior specimen. NOT the only one. I did not say it was simple or that wealth is the main factor. I don't understand why everything is so polarized.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| myth wrote: | | Why does everything have to be black and white?? I said people and animals (not just women) tend to choose mates with various qualities that will help ensure the survival of their offspring. That is what evolution is at a base level. Traits that are superior for survival, reproduction, aquisition of resources, etc are propogated. Resources CAN be one of the indicators of a spuperior specimen. NOT the only one. I did not say it was simple or that wealth is the main factor. I don't understand why everything is so polarized. |
no, the bolded part is not correct. natural selection does not work that way for a variety of reasons. the survival of our offspring is not of paramount importance in our mate choice. our genes do not guide us to pick a certain person like that - your perspective actually empowers evolution as though it was a thinking being that selects our mates for us.
it's not even a conscious factor for a lot of people, much less determined by natural selection.
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myth
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 17, 2011
Age: 27
Posts: 707
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Its not conscious. Its instinctual. We call it attraction.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| myth wrote: | | Its not conscious. Its instinctual. We call it attraction. |
we are not necessarily attracted to the people who make the best parents or who would be the best providers.
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myth
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 17, 2011
Age: 27
Posts: 707
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed.
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Zinnel
Velociraptor
Joined: Sep 03, 2011
Age: 22
Posts: 404
Location: Missouri, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | myth wrote: | Just because natural selection can occur at a sperm/egg level doesn't mean it doesn't occur at a mate-selection level.
So you don't believe in evolution then? |
it does occur at a mate selection level as well. but it isn't just based on finding a good caregiver. there are many, many other factors involved.
i believe in evolution, yes. if you do some research, you'll see that it is not as simple as you were painting it. |
Natural selection doesn't realy occur in mate selection, after all horrible horrible people become new parents every day. Love is often illogical so there for mate selection is also illogical. Natural Selection is basicly "the strong survive and the weak....well don't" but when it comes to mate selection what is strong and what is weak is so open to the individual and the culture they're in thats its real hard to define the two.
And there are some people who are very attracted to what their culture would find as "weak".
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Zinnel wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | myth wrote: | Just because natural selection can occur at a sperm/egg level doesn't mean it doesn't occur at a mate-selection level.
So you don't believe in evolution then? |
it does occur at a mate selection level as well. but it isn't just based on finding a good caregiver. there are many, many other factors involved.
i believe in evolution, yes. if you do some research, you'll see that it is not as simple as you were painting it. |
Natural selection doesn't realy occur in mate selection, after all horrible horrible people become new parents every day. Love is often illogical so there for mate selection is also illogical. Natural Selection is basicly "the strong survive and the weak....well don't" but when it comes to mate selection what is strong and what is weak is so open to the individual and the culture they're in thats its real hard to define the two.
And there are some people who are very attracted to what their culture would find as "weak". |
true that natural selection isn't really encapsulated in mate selection as the choice of partners does not influence an organism's own survival chances.
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CrazyStarlightRedux
Fake Kiwi
Joined: Jan 14, 2012
Age: 23
Posts: 1028
Location: Manchester, UK.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| ValentineWiggin wrote: | I couldn't care less about what his car looks like.
It is nice if he has one, though, so I don't have to drive us everywhere.
It could be a real rust bucket and I wouldn't care. |
It has to be clean on the inside though and not a car that hasn't been washed in weeks. 
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jagatai
Idiot
Joined: Feb 22, 2010
Age: 48
Posts: 1312
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | Zinnel wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | myth wrote: | Just because natural selection can occur at a sperm/egg level doesn't mean it doesn't occur at a mate-selection level.
So you don't believe in evolution then? |
it does occur at a mate selection level as well. but it isn't just based on finding a good caregiver. there are many, many other factors involved.
i believe in evolution, yes. if you do some research, you'll see that it is not as simple as you were painting it. |
Natural selection doesn't realy occur in mate selection, after all horrible horrible people become new parents every day. Love is often illogical so there for mate selection is also illogical. Natural Selection is basicly "the strong survive and the weak....well don't" but when it comes to mate selection what is strong and what is weak is so open to the individual and the culture they're in thats its real hard to define the two.
And there are some people who are very attracted to what their culture would find as "weak". |
true that natural selection isn't really encapsulated in mate selection as the choice of partners does not influence an organism's own survival chances. |
If I may butt in... mate selection IS a factor in natural selection. The term "natural selection" refers to the natural selective pressures that influence passing genes to a next generation. It is not limited to "the strong survive and the weak do not." The colorful plumage of male peacocks seems to have evolved due to peahens choosing to mate with the most flamboyant males. This choice is a selective pressure on which individuals are able to pass their genes to a following generation. Humans may fall in love (or at least get pregnant with others) for what seems to be illogical reasons, but those illogical choices still will have a selective pressure on how humans evolve.
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NeuroDiversity
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Mar 05, 2012
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| jagatai wrote: | | If I may butt in... mate selection IS a factor in natural selection. The term "natural selection" refers to the natural selective pressures that influence passing genes to a next generation. It is not limited to "the strong survive and the weak do not." The colorful plumage of male peacocks seems to have evolved due to peahens choosing to mate with the most flamboyant males. This choice is a selective pressure on which individuals are able to pass their genes to a following generation. Humans may fall in love (or at least get pregnant with others) for what seems to be illogical reasons, but those illogical choices still will have a selective pressure on how humans evolve . |
Well said.
Also, for those who state that the perception of wealth or status symbols are not genetically encoded to influence mate selection, can you explain how the studies you refer to claim to able to distinguish between cultural and biological factors? In other words, how could they ensure that (or, for ex., be 95% confident that) the subjects in their study who selected their mate for reason X did so purely based on cultural factors? As a former academic who used to be involved in the research game, I don't see how this issue could actually be controlled for adequately in a study of live or dead humans.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| jagatai wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | Zinnel wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | myth wrote: | Just because natural selection can occur at a sperm/egg level doesn't mean it doesn't occur at a mate-selection level.
So you don't believe in evolution then? |
it does occur at a mate selection level as well. but it isn't just based on finding a good caregiver. there are many, many other factors involved.
i believe in evolution, yes. if you do some research, you'll see that it is not as simple as you were painting it. |
Natural selection doesn't realy occur in mate selection, after all horrible horrible people become new parents every day. Love is often illogical so there for mate selection is also illogical. Natural Selection is basicly "the strong survive and the weak....well don't" but when it comes to mate selection what is strong and what is weak is so open to the individual and the culture they're in thats its real hard to define the two.
And there are some people who are very attracted to what their culture would find as "weak". |
true that natural selection isn't really encapsulated in mate selection as the choice of partners does not influence an organism's own survival chances. |
If I may butt in... mate selection IS a factor in natural selection. The term "natural selection" refers to the natural selective pressures that influence passing genes to a next generation. It is not limited to "the strong survive and the weak do not." The colorful plumage of male peacocks seems to have evolved due to peahens choosing to mate with the most flamboyant males. This choice is a selective pressure on which individuals are able to pass their genes to a following generation. Humans may fall in love (or at least get pregnant with others) for what seems to be illogical reasons, but those illogical choices still will have a selective pressure on how humans evolve. |
natural selection doesn't work that way - it has no power over people. natural selection is a result of which people survive to mate, not which mate a person selects.
the appearance of some traits in the general population may be a result of mate selection, and if those people happen to survive then the traits will accumulate. but one does not drive the other directly.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| NeuroDiversity wrote: | | jagatai wrote: | | If I may butt in... mate selection IS a factor in natural selection. The term "natural selection" refers to the natural selective pressures that influence passing genes to a next generation. It is not limited to "the strong survive and the weak do not." The colorful plumage of male peacocks seems to have evolved due to peahens choosing to mate with the most flamboyant males. This choice is a selective pressure on which individuals are able to pass their genes to a following generation. Humans may fall in love (or at least get pregnant with others) for what seems to be illogical reasons, but those illogical choices still will have a selective pressure on how humans evolve . |
Well said.
Also, for those who state that the perception of wealth or status symbols are not genetically encoded to influence mate selection, can you explain how the studies you refer to claim to able to distinguish between cultural and biological factors? In other words, how could they ensure that (or, for ex., be 95% confident that) the subjects in their study who selected their mate for reason X did so purely based on cultural factors? As a former academic who used to be involved in the research game, I don't see how this issue could actually be controlled for adequately in a study of live or dead humans. |
there are populations that live as our ancestors did (hunter/gatherer, non-settled), which are used as comparisons for study. also, we look at our closest primate relatives.
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CrazyStarlightRedux
Fake Kiwi
Joined: Jan 14, 2012
Age: 23
Posts: 1028
Location: Manchester, UK.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| jagatai wrote: |
If I may butt in... mate selection IS a factor in natural selection. The term "natural selection" refers to the natural selective pressures that influence passing genes to a next generation. It is not limited to "the strong survive and the weak do not." The colorful plumage of male peacocks seems to have evolved due to peahens choosing to mate with the most flamboyant males. This choice is a selective pressure on which individuals are able to pass their genes to a following generation. Humans may fall in love (or at least get pregnant with others) for what seems to be illogical reasons, but those illogical choices still will have a selective pressure on how humans evolve. |
I kind of wish that we do go back to natural selection as chavs make so many kids it's ridiculous....and that choice is based on getting as much money from the govt as possible rather then basing their potential mates on intellect and strength... 
Natural selection gave us Red Headed females so I am not complaining. 
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