shrox
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 12, 2011
Posts: 3254
Location: OK let's go.
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 Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| abacacus wrote: | | shrox wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | No more of a fallacy than saying god is all knowing and such (which christians do all the time) and then saying "but I know better!", which they also do. All the time. 
Personally, I find it quite funny. |
Why can't God be all knowing? Yes, I realize this requires a supposition that he exists. So grant that, then answer. |
The all knowing bit isn't what I find funny (granting god exists, him being omnipotent is kind of part of the job description). What I find funny, is the people who believe in him constantly trying to squirm out of many of his commands by essentially saying "no he didn't actually mean that, he can't of" which is *heavily* implying "it doesn't matter what he actually said, because I know better than what he said so I know what he really meant." |
That's not funny, that's just...sad. |
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abacacus
Rock 'N Roll Outlaw
Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 3316
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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To you maybe, to me it's hilarious.
_________________
A shot gun blast into the face of deceit
You'll gain your just reward.
We'll not rest until the purge is complete
You will reap what you've sown. |
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TM
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Because if "God" didn't work in "mysterious" ways, he'd just be the as*hole that created a world that naturally defaults to a state of misery after every good time. |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| abacacus wrote: | No more of a fallacy than saying god is all knowing and such (which christians do all the time) and then saying "but I know better!", which they also do. All the time.
Personally, I find it quite funny. |
You have forgotten to meniton his other children Jews and Muslims the diffrence between Christans and the view of the law is that being saved through Jesus christ is all that matters not bibcal laws. |
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Pyrite
Sealion
Joined: Mar 28, 2012
Age: 27
Posts: 1247
Location: Mid-Atlantic United States
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:18 am Post subject: |
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People I've asked about this stuff on forums always revert to the definition of morality as compliance with the will of god (Hegelian philosophy does the same with the concept of history). In other words, god is good so long as he does as he wants, no matter what it is. I'm not sure if having to settle for something less than what he wants would be considered "evil" under this definition (e.g. him not wiping out the Jews apart from Moses and his immediate family because Moses wouldn't go along with it) but that's a minor issue.
| TM wrote: | | Because if "God" didn't work in "mysterious" ways, he'd just be the as*hole that created a world that naturally defaults to a state of misery after every good time. |
I think even applying some conventional moral standard to god it's slightly more complicated than that. One would assume god takes the long view and would accept anything in order to achieve an ideal world in the very long run (if he wanted to actually accomplish that). Derailing history so that you can win the lottery isn't really justifiable in such a grand scheme if it ruins everything else.
Besides the theory of leading to "the best of all possible worlds"/heaven on earth, the other justification for the misery of existence is the afterlife, meaning that good is rewarded and evil punished in the afterlife so that on balance existence is not as unjust as it seems going by life on earth, where the good can suffer and the wicked prosper (some may also say that "life" is a brief part of one's existence).
Of we course, we can't find any better proof of this than that at best god told us so, and we would believe him because we have faith he is good.....which we know because we have faith in his promises that he fixes things in the afterlife.....which we believe because he is good........you can see the problem here. It's all rather circular and requires faith as a starting point, rather than having it as an end point. |
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Unspecified
Sea Gull
Joined: Jan 05, 2012
Age: 45
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:20 am Post subject: |
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If I have to completely let go of my very active inclination to always ask HOW or WHY everything is the way it is, then I don't see how I could be expected to embrace religion at all.
I was presumably created from scratch by this deity, complete with an inquisitive, curious personality, and every time I ask a question that I feel must have a perfectly good answer that is understandable to the human mind, I am told that I CANNOT understand the mind of god and that his ways are mysterious. This is in no way satisfying to me.
Am I to understand that god's lesson for me is to learn to humbly accept that there are thousands of questions not worth asking? Any deity would see that this is unacceptable to anyone with my kind of mind. It wouldn't have to be omniscious, even. Or perhaps that is the point. You HAVE TO be omniscious to see it, in which case I can't accept how my fellow humans seem to know his will about these things. And yes, "knowing" that you are not supposed to ask questions is a sneaky way of knowing god's will.
To me, it seems perfectly valid to BLAME god for a plane crash if it is valid to THANK him for saving the life of one of the passengers.
It seems perfectly valid to ask why there are 30,000+ species of Nematodes, over half of which are parasitic and cause slow, painful death for their presumably innocent hosts.
If I ever met god, I would also ask why my knees and lower back were constructed so stupidly. Ouch. |
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shrox
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 12, 2011
Posts: 3254
Location: OK let's go.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Pyrite wrote: | | ...I think even applying some conventional moral standard to god it's slightly more complicated than that. One would assume god takes the long view and would accept anything in order to achieve an ideal world in the very long run (if he wanted to actually accomplish that). Derailing history so that you can win the lottery isn't really justifiable in such a grand scheme if it ruins everything else... |
Excellent. |
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Rocky
This dude is one hoopy frood!
Joined: May 02, 2008
Posts: 2096
Location: Uhhh...Not Remulak
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Pyrite wrote: |
Of we course, we can't find any better proof of this than that at best god told us so, and we would believe him because we have faith he is good.....which we know because we have faith in his promises that he fixes things in the afterlife.....which we believe because he is good........you can see the problem here. It's all rather circular and requires faith as a starting point, rather than having it as an end point. |
Excellent. |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| It takes more then just Faith to believe in God. |
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Pyrite
Sealion
Joined: Mar 28, 2012
Age: 27
Posts: 1247
Location: Mid-Atlantic United States
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Joker wrote: | | It takes more then just Faith to believe in God. |
The two aren't necessarily associated. I don't think you need to have faith in god to believe in him (I have been using "faith" to mean confidence in god's judgment/wisdom/mysterious ways rather than as a synonym for theism), although the reverse would be difficult.
As in the case of the pagan gods who are jerks (mentioned earlier in the thread), belief does not require faith, even religious observance can be explained purely through fear of punishment (although this is not always the only reason for compliance). People can "lose faith" in god or religion without becoming atheists or questioning god's existence. Although atheism may seem a more appealing explanation than divine indifference or antipathy in such cases both possibilities are generally considered. |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Pyrite wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | It takes more then just Faith to believe in God. |
The two aren't necessarily associated. I don't think you need to have faith in god to believe in him (I have been using "faith" to mean confidence in god's judgment/wisdom/mysterious ways rather than as a synonym for theism), although the reverse would be difficult.
As in the case of the pagan gods who are jerks (mentioned earlier in the thread), belief does not require faith, even religious observance can be explained purely through fear of punishment (although this is not always the only reason for compliance). People can "lose faith" in god or religion without becoming atheists or questioning god's existence. Although atheism may seem a more appealing explanation than divine indifference or antipathy in such cases both possibilities are generally considered. |
Some of the pagan gods where jerks in their beliefs most people view gods are crule beings how ever in native american religion they view gods as the earth moon and sun because they depend on them to live. Also the cherokee would whorship nature and gave them names like the rain god who would bless them with water to drink ect. I knew what you meant btw but their are both good and bad qualitys of the christian god the jews have their view of him that would seem more harsh also the muslims view god as a loving god only if you are a muslim. |
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lilbetta
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 10, 2012
Age: 22
Posts: 153
Location: my own lil world
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| abacacus wrote: | | To you maybe, to me it's hilarious. |
Christians are people to and as humans they are very flawed... not all christians are like that either |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| lilbetta wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | To you maybe, to me it's hilarious. |
Christians are people to and as humans they are very flawed... not all christians are like that either |
Excellent I agree. |
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slave
Always stuck between 13-38Hz and tired of it.
Joined: Feb 29, 2012
Age: 100
Posts: 1320
Location: Dystopia Planetia
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| abacacus wrote: | | MarketAndChurch wrote: | Why should one hold God accountable when the majority of our suffering are not natural, but rather, manmade...
If one is fair, then simply ask yourself that, does most of your suffering come from natural causes, like your autism, or the death of a relative due to cancer, or a tornado, or does it come from other human beings, who talk behind your back, talk ill in front of you or to you, do not treat people you well, etc.
If God held humanity accountable since Cain, and despite a flood, we still act the way we do, then if we destroy this world or each other, we are responsible for that, and does not reflect on God.
If you put God on Trial, at least be fair in the way you do it. |
Okay then, here's a fair trial:
Why did your god command so many atrocities? You know, human sacrifice, the murder of infants, the murder of entire towns or even nations, horrific punishments such as being burned alive, etc. |
Perhaps he enjoyed it.
_________________
Since the birth of civilization, masters have controlled the masses.Our Masters rule over every nation and no one can defy them.They will attain Absolute Power as we reach the Singularity. Any who resist will be destroyed.I will not resist. |
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slave
Always stuck between 13-38Hz and tired of it.
Joined: Feb 29, 2012
Age: 100
Posts: 1320
Location: Dystopia Planetia
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Why don't the faithful hold God morally accountable? |
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| Lord_Gareth wrote: | No, really. It sounds like a simple question, doesn't it? One that might admit an easy answer? But it doesn't. The best one I've gotten was from our very own Shrox, who (to paraphrase) said, "He came down to Earth to let us kill Him - sounds like moral accountability to me," (a note to Shrox and others: I'm paraphrasing because I'm too lazy to hunt for the exact quote in the archives. My apologies, and I'll hunt it down if you would like me to).
The essential question is this: why is God considered just, moral, and/or merciful when many of his supposed teachings, commandments and actions are unjust (eternal punishments for finite transgressions, slaughter in response to relatively small provocation, commanding his followers to murder gentiles in order to steal and/or rape their women), unmerciful (creation of suffering in response to original sin, death/hell in general) or just straight up immoral (go ahead, check out the OT's policies on rape. No, go on. I will wait while you read)? Starting from a standpoint that God exists and actually Does Stuff with His great omnipotence, why is it that those who choose to believe in Him fail to hold Him morally accountable for His own actions? Aside from Shrox's (rather refreshing) answer, the only one I've ever gotten boils down to, "Well, He works in mysterious ways," which sounds to me like a cop-out method of avoiding thought on one's own theology. Can anyone give me an answer on this? Anyone at all? |
Because it would create cognitive dissonance and they are too insecure and/or weak-minded to take it.
_________________
Since the birth of civilization, masters have controlled the masses.Our Masters rule over every nation and no one can defy them.They will attain Absolute Power as we reach the Singularity. Any who resist will be destroyed.I will not resist. |
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