Zinia
Deinonychus
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Age: 30
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 Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| edgewaters wrote: | Childhood is all about finding boundaries, testing limits. Seems natural for kids to take all kinds of behaviours to some extreme, just to see where the boundaries lie and how this or that suits them.
Kids are still rebelling against social attitudes from the 1950s, that don't even exist anymore. Why? Who knows, but eventually they figure it out. |
I totally agree with this. Girls coming into womanhood (I say that very loosely) end up running into all kinds of invisible social constructions, taboos, and expectations.
When I was fifteen I wore lacy slips, marked up wife-beaters, and fishnet stockings. Not because I was trying to dress promiscuously but because I was testing the boundaries and my endurance against taboos (not that I knew that then). I also had a shaved head and unshaven legs--which compliment fishnet stockings nicely for a teenager who is sick of gender constrictions.
Girls are under so much pressure from the media to be valued by their sexuality. I don't think we can judge a girl by her clothing at all.
Tonight, when I went out, I got tons of unwanted attention without wearing revealing clothing. It's not really about me though is it. I don't oggle and drool over other people who seem to adhere to the gender ideal, and it's not my fault if others do. If girls don't get taken seriously, that's because some people don't want to take them seriously. |
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Quantum_Immortal
Deinonychus
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| edgewaters wrote: | | Quantum_Immortal wrote: | | Males must show that they dominate a bit women, then women get seduced, Or they don't get layed( nice guy), it means that he can provide for her. Also, when a woman is submissive, it amplifies the self esteem of the male, he takes more risks this way, in order to feed the kids and wife. Thats biological. |
There is typical biology but there is no universal biology. In any species, individual phenotypes often deviate wildly from the norm. But animals don't have culture, there is no one forcing them to accept alien imperatives. That's the problem for humans - not ignoring biology but thinking there is an ideal biology for everyone. As a species we are so numerous and so phenotypically diverse (because of changes in natural selection) that it's foolish to assume there is any such thing as an ideal or universal biology. This is not true even among far less numerous and less diverse species. |
Reproduction imperatives are universal. If our ancestors didn't reproduced, we wouldn't be there, we are the descendent's of of the ones that reproduced. In evolution, reproduction is everything, its only thing that really counts in the end.
In times past, who would kill the bear, or the mammoth with just a stone spear? Girls? I mean seriously, do you people realize what it takes to do things like that?
Its funny that no woman has commented that yet. They are only feminists here? Maybe the feminists should talk things out with the bears and mammoths by them selves first. What i said its true, i'm standing by it. And i'm not some primitive Neanderthal.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quantum_Immortal wrote: | | edgewaters wrote: | | Quantum_Immortal wrote: | | Males must show that they dominate a bit women, then women get seduced, Or they don't get layed( nice guy), it means that he can provide for her. Also, when a woman is submissive, it amplifies the self esteem of the male, he takes more risks this way, in order to feed the kids and wife. Thats biological. |
There is typical biology but there is no universal biology. In any species, individual phenotypes often deviate wildly from the norm. But animals don't have culture, there is no one forcing them to accept alien imperatives. That's the problem for humans - not ignoring biology but thinking there is an ideal biology for everyone. As a species we are so numerous and so phenotypically diverse (because of changes in natural selection) that it's foolish to assume there is any such thing as an ideal or universal biology. This is not true even among far less numerous and less diverse species. |
Reproduction imperatives are universal. If our ancestors didn't reproduced, we wouldn't be there, we are the descendent's of of the ones that reproduced. In evolution, reproduction is everything, its only thing that really counts in the end.
In times past, who would kill the bear, or the mammoth with just a stone spear? Girls? I mean seriously, do you people realize what it takes to do things like that?
Its funny that no woman has commented that yet. They are only feminists here? Maybe the feminists should talk things out with the bears and mammoths by them selves first. What i said its true, i'm standing by it. And i'm not some primitive Neanderthal. |
meat was a very small part of the prehistoric diet, and most of the food our ancestors ate was gathered.... by BOTH men and women. and frankly, as far as the research has suggested, women were hunters too. so i think you're considering prehistory through an inaccurate (aka "flintstonized") lens.
none of which has anything to do with the erroneous idea that there is a universal biological drive towards specific gendered behaviours and preferences.
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DerStadtschutz
The Anti-feminazi
Joined: Sep 06, 2011
Age: 27
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | moved from Random Discussion to Women's Discussion
i have to say.... i think this reinforces the point that 15 year old girls are not really valued or noticed in our society unless they are attractive and dressed in a revealing manner. nobody talks about the quiet mousy humble intellectual drably-dressed 15 year-olds - and they do exist, i assure you. many people in our society (i.e. a few in this thread) are so busy judging the females in skimpy clothing that the other females are not noticed. it speaks volumes that people are even having this conversation. |
And nobody really talks about the quiet humble intellectual drably dressed 15 year old BOY either. you know, the one who's usually after the girl who you could describe with the exact same adjectives, because she's too busy swooning over either A: a member of some stupid boyband/actor or B: some popular jock or something. In both cases, a guy she's never gonna get. I've seen it a million times, and guys definitely do that too, but it seems to occur more in women, at least by my observation. I mean, I used to hear girls talk all the time about how they're gonna marry justin bieber or someone similar some day, but I've never heard that kind of thing from a guy. Usually with that kind of fantasy talk, it's about who they wish they could have sex with. |
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| DerStadtschutz wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | moved from Random Discussion to Women's Discussion
i have to say.... i think this reinforces the point that 15 year old girls are not really valued or noticed in our society unless they are attractive and dressed in a revealing manner. nobody talks about the quiet mousy humble intellectual drably-dressed 15 year-olds - and they do exist, i assure you. many people in our society (i.e. a few in this thread) are so busy judging the females in skimpy clothing that the other females are not noticed. it speaks volumes that people are even having this conversation. |
And nobody really talks about the quiet humble intellectual drably dressed 15 year old BOY either. you know, the one who's usually after the girl who you could describe with the exact same adjectives, because she's too busy swooning over either A: a member of some stupid boyband/actor or B: some popular jock or something. In both cases, a guy she's never gonna get. I've seen it a million times, and guys definitely do that too, but it seems to occur more in women, at least by my observation. I mean, I used to hear girls talk all the time about how they're gonna marry justin bieber or someone similar some day, but I've never heard that kind of thing from a guy. Usually with that kind of fantasy talk, it's about who they wish they could have sex with. |
you have no evidence that it supposedly occurs more with women. perhaps that is just what you happen to notice.
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DerStadtschutz
The Anti-feminazi
Joined: Sep 06, 2011
Age: 27
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | DerStadtschutz wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | moved from Random Discussion to Women's Discussion
i have to say.... i think this reinforces the point that 15 year old girls are not really valued or noticed in our society unless they are attractive and dressed in a revealing manner. nobody talks about the quiet mousy humble intellectual drably-dressed 15 year-olds - and they do exist, i assure you. many people in our society (i.e. a few in this thread) are so busy judging the females in skimpy clothing that the other females are not noticed. it speaks volumes that people are even having this conversation. |
And nobody really talks about the quiet humble intellectual drably dressed 15 year old BOY either. you know, the one who's usually after the girl who you could describe with the exact same adjectives, because she's too busy swooning over either A: a member of some stupid boyband/actor or B: some popular jock or something. In both cases, a guy she's never gonna get. I've seen it a million times, and guys definitely do that too, but it seems to occur more in women, at least by my observation. I mean, I used to hear girls talk all the time about how they're gonna marry justin bieber or someone similar some day, but I've never heard that kind of thing from a guy. Usually with that kind of fantasy talk, it's about who they wish they could have sex with. |
you have no evidence that it supposedly occurs more with women. perhaps that is just what you happen to notice. |
I know... That's why I said "at least by my observation..." |
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deltafunction
Cool cool cool
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
Age: 21
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Location: Lost
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| DerStadtschutz wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | moved from Random Discussion to Women's Discussion
i have to say.... i think this reinforces the point that 15 year old girls are not really valued or noticed in our society unless they are attractive and dressed in a revealing manner. nobody talks about the quiet mousy humble intellectual drably-dressed 15 year-olds - and they do exist, i assure you. many people in our society (i.e. a few in this thread) are so busy judging the females in skimpy clothing that the other females are not noticed. it speaks volumes that people are even having this conversation. |
And nobody really talks about the quiet humble intellectual drably dressed 15 year old BOY either. you know, the one who's usually after the girl who you could describe with the exact same adjectives, because she's too busy swooning over either A: a member of some stupid boyband/actor or B: some popular jock or something. In both cases, a guy she's never gonna get. I've seen it a million times, and guys definitely do that too, but it seems to occur more in women, at least by my observation. I mean, I used to hear girls talk all the time about how they're gonna marry justin bieber or someone similar some day, but I've never heard that kind of thing from a guy. Usually with that kind of fantasy talk, it's about who they wish they could have sex with. |
I think hyperlexian's point was that if you has two girls, one who was dressed in revealing clothes, and one who was dressed conservatively, more boys would go for the girl dressed in revealing clothes, regardless of the personality. Is there an equivalent revealing mode of dress for these boys you are talking about, that makes girls choose a boy by their clothes?
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Quantum_Immortal
Deinonychus
Joined: Feb 13, 2011
Age: 30
Posts: 319
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | Quantum_Immortal wrote: | | edgewaters wrote: | | Quantum_Immortal wrote: | | Males must show that they dominate a bit women, then women get seduced, Or they don't get layed( nice guy), it means that he can provide for her. Also, when a woman is submissive, it amplifies the self esteem of the male, he takes more risks this way, in order to feed the kids and wife. Thats biological. |
There is typical biology but there is no universal biology. In any species, individual phenotypes often deviate wildly from the norm. But animals don't have culture, there is no one forcing them to accept alien imperatives. That's the problem for humans - not ignoring biology but thinking there is an ideal biology for everyone. As a species we are so numerous and so phenotypically diverse (because of changes in natural selection) that it's foolish to assume there is any such thing as an ideal or universal biology. This is not true even among far less numerous and less diverse species. |
Reproduction imperatives are universal. If our ancestors didn't reproduced, we wouldn't be there, we are the descendent's of of the ones that reproduced. In evolution, reproduction is everything, its only thing that really counts in the end.
In times past, who would kill the bear, or the mammoth with just a stone spear? Girls? I mean seriously, do you people realize what it takes to do things like that?
Its funny that no woman has commented that yet. They are only feminists here? Maybe the feminists should talk things out with the bears and mammoths by them selves first. What i said its true, i'm standing by it. And i'm not some primitive Neanderthal. |
meat was a very small part of the prehistoric diet, and most of the food our ancestors ate was gathered.... by BOTH men and women. and frankly, as far as the research has suggested, women were hunters too. so i think you're considering prehistory through an inaccurate (aka "flintstonized") lens.
none of which has anything to do with the erroneous idea that there is a universal biological drive towards specific gendered behaviours and preferences. |
proteins are very precious for animals. The proteins in the wild are on legs, and are smart enough to run away when you approach them, and even defend them selves. I don't think that you can seriously ignore that source of food. The plants we eat today where selectively breed over thousands of year, in the wild version, there weren't much to eat. For example, wild apples, have the size of a cherry.
Ok. Why men are build more toughly, bones and muscle? Just to oppress the women?
And why the majority of hunters today are men? And why the majority of video gamers are men? Just social?
In the past you had no machines. Only rudimentary tools. You needed physical strength, and things could get dangerous. Have you seen the teeth of a saber tooth tiger?
There are instinctive drives in our heads. In the same way we are different from the out side, we are different from the inside. Gender is a huge external difference, they are corresponding internal differences. You know, something like sexual orientation is wired inside. Personality is something largely genetic. That was checked with twins separated at birth. Sorry, but everything is not "just" a social construct. We are more animal then you think.
maybe you are extrapolating too much from your self?
and Flintstone was a traditional salary man.
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edgewaters
hibernating
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Age: 40
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quantum_Immortal wrote: | | In times past, who would kill the bear, or the mammoth with just a stone spear? Girls? . . . Maybe the feminists should talk things out with the bears and mammoths by them selves first. |
I suspect they are, actually, responsible for initially domesticating animals. Slightly more succesful method than chasing them around with spears. |
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Quantum_Immortal
Deinonychus
Joined: Feb 13, 2011
Age: 30
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| edgewaters wrote: | | Quantum_Immortal wrote: | | In times past, who would kill the bear, or the mammoth with just a stone spear? Girls? . . . Maybe the feminists should talk things out with the bears and mammoths by them selves first. |
I suspect they are, actually, responsible for initially domesticating animals. Slightly more succesful method than chasing them around with spears. |
I'm don't think you had that in mind.
an example
http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/p/m/f0695/
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edgewaters
hibernating
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Yep, they had to be doing that to initiate domestication. Take the babies from the wild and raise them, without their mothers. Chances are that this was a woman's idea. And now we don't have to chase dinner through the bush with a pointy stick anymore. |
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Zinia
Deinonychus
Joined: Sep 23, 2011
Age: 30
Posts: 344
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quantum_Immortal wrote: |
proteins are very precious for animals. The proteins in the wild are on legs, and are smart enough to run away when you approach them, and even defend them selves. I don't think that you can seriously ignore that source of food. The plants we eat today where selectively breed over thousands of year, in the wild version, there weren't much to eat. For example, wild apples, have the size of a cherry.
There are instinctive drives in our heads. In the same way we are different from the out side, we are different from the inside. Gender is a huge external difference, they are corresponding internal differences. You know, something like sexual orientation is wired inside. Personality is something largely genetic. That was checked with twins separated at birth. Sorry, but everything is not "just" a social construct. We are more animal then you think.
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OK, I feel a bit like I'm splitting hairs, but early humans probably got a great deal of protein by foraging for bugs and grubs, bird's eggs, crabs and bivalves, and by fishing, and trapping small animals. Those protein sources are much more reliable than a migrating herd of megafauna.
I do think that some men might give more attention to a girl who they deem dressed in a "sexual" way.
But I think this is more of a psychological/social thing, as some men might see dress as a social cue for being available for courtship. That doesn't mean that young girls are dressing with the thought of those men in mind.
If a lesbian dresses in a way that is commonly thought of as feminine and "sexy," does that mean she is trying to attract the male gaze or attract men for courtship? I doubt it. |
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Quantum_Immortal, 'flintstonization' is a term frequently used by critics of Evolutionary Psychology, and it refers to the modern biases perpetuated by a highly sexist and inaccurate methodology. you may want to read Sex at Dawn & Delusions of Gender. back to the topic, you have not shown any link between your skewed view of prehistory and modern women wearing revealing clothing.
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Quantum_Immortal
Deinonychus
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Age: 30
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Zinia wrote: | | Quantum_Immortal wrote: |
proteins are very precious for animals. The proteins in the wild are on legs, and are smart enough to run away when you approach them, and even defend them selves. I don't think that you can seriously ignore that source of food. The plants we eat today where selectively breed over thousands of year, in the wild version, there weren't much to eat. For example, wild apples, have the size of a cherry.
There are instinctive drives in our heads. In the same way we are different from the out side, we are different from the inside. Gender is a huge external difference, they are corresponding internal differences. You know, something like sexual orientation is wired inside. Personality is something largely genetic. That was checked with twins separated at birth. Sorry, but everything is not "just" a social construct. We are more animal then you think.
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OK, I feel a bit like I'm splitting hairs, but early humans probably got a great deal of protein by foraging for bugs and grubs, bird's eggs, crabs and bivalves, and by fishing, and trapping small animals. Those protein sources are much more reliable than a migrating herd of megafauna.
I do think that some men might give more attention to a girl who they deem dressed in a "sexual" way.
But I think this is more of a psychological/social thing, as some men might see dress as a social cue for being available for courtship. That doesn't mean that young girls are dressing with the thought of those men in mind.
If a lesbian dresses in a way that is commonly thought of as feminine and "sexy," does that mean she is trying to attract the male gaze or attract men for courtship? I doubt it. |
Then, why even bother with something as dangerous as a mammoth?
Yong girls follow there instincts. And the instincts are there for a purpose. I thought, that women felt good being dressed up like that (you are the women, maybe you are a bit masculinized aspie women?). In sexually oppressive societies, they have to go out of there way in order to force women not to dress like that.
Why every body tries to deny the fact we have instincts? Sexual orientation is so big that you can't deny it. Other stuff are instinctive too. We ARE animals. Everything is not just social.
Lesbians are a bit too anomalous for this discussion.
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puddingmouse
exclamation mark!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quantum_Immortal wrote: |
Lesbians are a bit too anomalous for this discussion. |
 More like, too sensible.
I'll take what you said as a compliment.
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