Unspecified
Sea Gull
Joined: Jan 05, 2012
Age: 45
Posts: 207
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 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| I got 6 weeks off from work when my kid was born. |
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:54 am Post subject: |
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in Canada, either parent can take 35 weeks of Parental leave
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Unspecified
Sea Gull
Joined: Jan 05, 2012
Age: 45
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| I meant *minimum* 6 weeks. |
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Subotai
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 25, 2010
Posts: 1036
Location: 日本
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:50 am Post subject: |
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I don`t see why a social change movement should target all social aspects. If these women are passionate about changing women`s societal roles then that is where their energy is best spent, one movement can`t change everything.
Not that I agree gender roles need changing because I see change as ultimately neutral. Generally the majority will be content and a minority will be uncontent no matter how things are... so long as people are meeting their basic needs.
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Last edited by Subotai on Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ArrantPariah
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 31, 2012
Posts: 4889
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| The increased labour pool helps to keep wages down for employers. |
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TM
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| LKL wrote: | *snort*
^so are we asking what feminism, a movement within modern western culture, has done for western culture, or are we asking what feminism, a movement within modern western culture, has done for humanity that had never occurred before in the entire history of the species anywhere? |
What do you define as "modern culture"? The last 30, 50, 100 or 200 years? |
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CrazyCatLord
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 25, 2011
Posts: 2177
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| ArrantPariah wrote: | | The increased labour pool helps to keep wages down for employers. |
But the number of available jobs has also greatly increased, since a larger percentage of people are consumers with an own income. But you do have a point when it comes to the USA. Back in the day, men were the financial providers and had to earn enough to support an entire family. Nowadays, middle class families usually require two financial providers. But that's not the fault of feminism, it's the result of wages that haven't kept up with the inflation rate since... some sources say 1968.
In countries such as Germany, with strong labor unions, cheap education and good public infrastructure and transportation, it is still possible for a person of either gender to be the sole provider of a family. Not with the wage of a supermarket cashier, but in that case the unemployed partner would receive welfare. Child benefits also help support families with children.
But I also have to admit that families with only one working parent are not exactly the norm, and children spend less time with their parents than they used to. Then again, in my grandparents' generation, a great deal of the time that children spent with their parents was spent working alongside them in the household or in the field. In poorer families, children were basically unpaid labor. My father even worked in the factory of my grandfather from a young age. I guess things aren't black and white, but all in all, we are a lot better off than our grandparents were at our age. That goes for both sexes. |
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ArrantPariah
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 31, 2012
Posts: 4889
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | ArrantPariah wrote: | | The increased labour pool helps to keep wages down for employers. |
But the number of available jobs has also greatly increased, since a larger percentage of people are consumers with an own income. But you do have a point when it comes to the USA. Back in the day, men were the financial providers and had to earn enough to support an entire family. Nowadays, middle class families usually require two financial providers. But that's not the fault of feminism, it's the result of wages that haven't kept up with the inflation rate since... some sources say 1968.
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But, to some extent low wages (and reduced union participation) are the result of an increased labour supply, which is driven by increased female participation in the labour market, which resulted from feminism. |
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TM
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| ArrantPariah wrote: | | CrazyCatLord wrote: | | ArrantPariah wrote: | | The increased labour pool helps to keep wages down for employers. |
But the number of available jobs has also greatly increased, since a larger percentage of people are consumers with an own income. But you do have a point when it comes to the USA. Back in the day, men were the financial providers and had to earn enough to support an entire family. Nowadays, middle class families usually require two financial providers. But that's not the fault of feminism, it's the result of wages that haven't kept up with the inflation rate since... some sources say 1968.
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But, to some extent low wages (and reduced union participation) are the result of an increased labour supply, which is driven by increased female participation in the labour market, which resulted from feminism. |
It's interesting to note that what one could argue began as a movement to make working outside the home an option for women in fact ended up making such participation compulsory for most families. |
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CrazyCatLord
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 25, 2011
Posts: 2177
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| ArrantPariah wrote: | | CrazyCatLord wrote: | | ArrantPariah wrote: | | The increased labour pool helps to keep wages down for employers. |
But the number of available jobs has also greatly increased, since a larger percentage of people are consumers with an own income. But you do have a point when it comes to the USA. Back in the day, men were the financial providers and had to earn enough to support an entire family. Nowadays, middle class families usually require two financial providers. But that's not the fault of feminism, it's the result of wages that haven't kept up with the inflation rate since... some sources say 1968.
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But, to some extent low wages (and reduced union participation) are the result of an increased labour supply, which is driven by increased female participation in the labour market, which resulted from feminism. |
We don't see the same low wages in social democracies where most workers are unionized. If the low middle class wages in the USA were solely the result of feminism, we should see the same situation in all other countries with equal gender employment opportunities.
In the USA, many people have been raised to believe that unions are evil, "big government" is evil, taxes are evil, universal health care is evil, and the government shouldn't be involved in the education system. This leads to political decisions that create a socioeconomic environment where employers control wages, little money is spent on public infrastructure/transportation (which forces families to own two cars), and decent education as well as health insurance are extremely expensive. The costs (gas prices etc.) have risen dramatically and the wages weren't adjusted accordingly. That's the main reason for the current situation, imho. |
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ArrantPariah
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 31, 2012
Posts: 4889
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: |
We don't see the same low wages in social democracies where most workers are unionized. If the low middle class wages in the USA were solely the result of feminism, we should see the same situation in all other countries with equal gender employment opportunities.
In the USA, many people have been raised to believe that unions are evil, "big government" is evil, taxes are evil, universal health care is evil, and the government shouldn't be involved in the education system. This leads to political decisions that create a socioeconomic environment where employers control wages, little money is spent on public infrastructure/transportation (which forces families to own two cars), and decent education as well as health insurance are extremely expensive. The costs (gas prices etc.) have risen dramatically and the wages weren't adjusted accordingly. That's the main reason for the current situation, imho. |
That's life in America.
Here, salary negotiation is a 2-way street. Employers offer a salary, which the prospective employee may take, leave, or negotiate for something higher. Women seem to undermine men by being willing to work for less, and then whine because they work for less. |
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sage_gerard
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 21, 2012
Age: 22
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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I am an advocate for classical feminism since it is so intimately connected with libertarian values and addressed problems like these, but I would not say that the feminist values helped as much as the libertarian values. For that reason, I disagree with the popular notion that feminism is considered equivalent to egalitarianism. Since I never did a bigoted thing in my life, I feel uncomfortable around people who are sure I am a bigot because I am a white man. (Because resentment and revenge are more progressive than reconciliation!  )
IMAO, no one can claim to support one group and then claim to speak in favor of all groups. I went to a feminist art show a couple of weeks ago. Before everything started and we were released onto the free food, one of the artists said "If you support equal pay for women, you are a feminist". Why does "supporting everyone" means "supporting women"?
I would say that if egalitarianism is the goal, neither feminism or masculanism have any ethical function other than to act in response to unbalanced representation. Overall, I feel feminism and masculanism are harmful to everyone if people only make a point to listen to just one of them.
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TM
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| sage_gerard wrote: |
I would say that if egalitarianism is the goal, neither feminism or masculanism have any function other than to act as political weapons when things shift out of balance. Overall, I feel feminism and masculanism are harmful to everyone if people only make a point to listen to just one of them. |
All ideologies are filled to the brim with bs that cover up the basic principles of the ideology and every ideology is perverted by each subject. Every ideology becomes personally interpreted through various psychological biases a person has, then reflects what the person believed in the first place.
The more self-righteous and convinced the proponent of an ideology is, the more that person should be ignored. |
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Subotai
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 25, 2010
Posts: 1036
Location: 日本
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| TM wrote: | | sage_gerard wrote: |
I would say that if egalitarianism is the goal, neither feminism or masculanism have any function other than to act as political weapons when things shift out of balance. Overall, I feel feminism and masculanism are harmful to everyone if people only make a point to listen to just one of them. |
All ideologies are filled to the brim with bs that cover up the basic principles of the ideology and every ideology is perverted by each subject. Every ideology becomes personally interpreted through various psychological biases a person has, then reflects what the person believed in the first place.
The more self-righteous and convinced the proponent of an ideology is, the more that person should be ignored. |
Yes, my thoughts exactly.
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snapcap
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 13, 2011
Age: 31
Posts: 2328
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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After women won the right to vote, men that had dashing looks became more electable.
EDIT: 
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some atheist to stick: "You're like me!" |
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