sage_gerard
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 21, 2012
Age: 22
Posts: 149
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 Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | This is how Wikipedia creates new "facts" |
Oh ye of little faith. As if issues like this are never caught. 
Google itself gives you what you want, not what is true. As I said before, Wikipedia does have standards. They encourage citing peer-reviewed sources themselves and not original research. They even have places dedicated to debate on the reliability of sources (click).
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ruveyn
Phoenix
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Age: 76
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Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| Joker wrote: | | bizboy1 wrote: | | There are more men that are simply intellectually superior. It's a fact. |
Unless you have some form of proof I disagree both men and women are equal intellectually. |
There are far more male mathematicians and theoretical physicists than female. And it is not a matter of prejudice. Female brains and male brains on average work differently. Female reproductive plumbing differs from male. Female abstraction machinery differs from male. It is as simple as that.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21990
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| NarcissusSavage wrote: | I'm going to generally side with TM, as his points here are more rational and logically consistent.
*Before I get into my case. Please be advised, despite your inclination to read below in my post the word “men” “women” etc as being individuals…for whatever reason you might be inclined to do so…I am not speaking of individuals. I am using the context of those words to imply the full group. You know, the sum of many, the average of all, however you most comfortably look at discussing a characterization of a group.*
Given that IQ tests are the most established means of quantifying intelligence, and given that men as a group score higher on IQ tests than women, then it follows that men (still as a group, remember) are more intelligent than women.
I don't understand why this is sexist. Men are taller than women. Women have a higher body fat percentage than men. Men are slightly darker in pigmentation than women. Women have higher levels of estrogen than men. The list goes on...and on...
There are measurable differences between males and females. These differences are not breaking news...I fail to see why there is controversy. Our species has sexual dimorphism…many species do.
Despite that there are differences; the issue of value is independent from this discussion. I think, or at least suspect, that this is what those arguing against this notion that "men are more intelligent than women" have. But the two are very separate and distinct concepts. You can be both different and equally valued. Value of every human being does not mean we must all put blinders on and pretend everyone is completely identical. We should celebrate our differences, in every form they come in. |
intelligence != IQ. the only conclusion you can really draw is that.... men score slightly higher on IQ tests on average. that does not equal being more intelligent on average.
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WilliamWDelaney
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Joined: Apr 27, 2011
Posts: 1201
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19457060
"Castration impaired spatial working memory performance in the delayed matching to place water maze task following a 1-h, but not a 1-min, retention interval, as has been reported for rats. In contrast, castration had no effect on novel object recognition memory, spatial reference memory in the water maze, motor coordination, or passive avoidance memory...
...Finally, we assessed the effects of androgen replacement with non-aromatizable dihydrotestosterone on spatial working memory following various retention intervals. Dihydrotestosterone recovered spatial memory performance following a 24-h, but not a 1-h retention interval, and had no effect at other retention intervals."
In other words, it's a scientific fact that just BEING A GUY gives you a boost in certain areas. It doesn't mean everything, and that's why we ought to be on our guard against people who would abuse these facts to try to justify harmful, unprofessional conduct. However, it does have an effect, and the point of bringing it up is that...
(deep breath)
...YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN EVERYTHING BASED ON DISCRIMINATION OR CULTURAL INDOCTRINATION. THEY ARE SERIOUS PROBLEMS, BUT THERE ARE LIMITATIONS TO THEIR EXPLANATORY POWER. WHAT PART OF THIS IS HARD FOR PEOPLE TO COMPREHEND? |
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SanityTheorist
Wandering Artist
Joined: Feb 14, 2012
Posts: 2105
Location: The Akuma Afterglow
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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Men do science and technological matters better, women do artistic and social endeavors better.
The title made me think this would be about cultural prejudices with IQ tests.
In regards to comments below, men are far more likely to be scientists and women artists/stay-at-home mothers, which they should be.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21990
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19457060
"Castration impaired spatial working memory performance in the delayed matching to place water maze task following a 1-h, but not a 1-min, retention interval, as has been reported for rats. In contrast, castration had no effect on novel object recognition memory, spatial reference memory in the water maze, motor coordination, or passive avoidance memory...
...Finally, we assessed the effects of androgen replacement with non-aromatizable dihydrotestosterone on spatial working memory following various retention intervals. Dihydrotestosterone recovered spatial memory performance following a 24-h, but not a 1-h retention interval, and had no effect at other retention intervals."
In other words, it's a scientific fact that just BEING A GUY gives you a boost in certain areas. It doesn't mean everything, and that's why we ought to be on our guard against people who would abuse these facts to try to justify harmful, unprofessional conduct. However, it does have an effect, and the point of bringing it up is that...
(deep breath)
...YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN EVERYTHING BASED ON DISCRIMINATION OR CULTURAL INDOCTRINATION. THEY ARE SERIOUS PROBLEMS, BUT THERE ARE LIMITATIONS TO THEIR EXPLANATORY POWER. WHAT PART OF THIS IS HARD FOR PEOPLE TO COMPREHEND? |
you were the only person to mention discrimination or cultural indoctrination on this thread, so i am not sure who you are shouting at. 
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sage_gerard
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 21, 2012
Age: 22
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| SanityTheorist wrote: | | Men do science and technological matters better, women do artistic and social endeavors better. In regards to comments below, men are far more likely to be scientists and women artists/stay-at-home mothers, which they should be. |
Biological differences are not hard to comprehend. If you look at ducks, spiders or lions, it is clear sex has serious influence.
What bothers people is the notion that being born a certain way means your identity must develop in a certain way.
I have no problem admitting that being a man means I can be prone to aggression, have good depth perception and blah blah blah. I would take issue with someone saying that I must therefore endorse violence or always be the one to drive.
This makes David Hume barf a little bit in his grave. There is a massive is-ought gap here.
For future reference for those who don't know what that is: David Hume once observed that people have a habit of saying what things are before suddenly talking about how they should be. He claimed this was a problem, since it leaves a large logical gap. How does "ought" follow from "is"?
Unless you can objectively prove the content of the word "should", I would suggest not assuming that identity follows from anatomy. If Alan the Strong Man could lift 3 megagrams but wants to do ballet, don't force him to join the circus. If a woman could nurture a child and run a home beautifully, but wants to run a research and development firm, don't force her to stay home.
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Vexcalibur
Proud to be smug as heck
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Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Posts: 5383
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: | This is how Wikipedia creates new "facts":
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Forgot the part in which people take a xkcd comic at face value.
| ruveyn wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | bizboy1 wrote: | | There are more men that are simply intellectually superior. It's a fact. |
Unless you have some form of proof I disagree both men and women are equal intellectually. |
There are far more male mathematicians and theoretical physicists than female.
ruveyn |
Your statistical sample is not suitable for taking conclusions (duh, BTW).
While this discussion is not showing any relevant information in regards of gender and intelligence it is doing great work at showing that some men are terribad at science.
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ruveyn
Phoenix
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Age: 76
Posts: 29702
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Vexcalibur wrote: | | ruveyn wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | bizboy1 wrote: | | There are more men that are simply intellectually superior. It's a fact. |
Unless you have some form of proof I disagree both men and women are equal intellectually. |
There are far more male mathematicians and theoretical physicists than female.
ruveyn |
Your statistical sample is not suitable for taking conclusions (duh, BTW).
While this discussion is not showing any relevant information in regards of gender and intelligence it is doing great work at showing that some men are terribad at science. |
Does not change the facts. More male mathematicians and theoretical physicists than female. There is a difference in the way male brains work from the way female brains work on average.
ruveyn |
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21990
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | Vexcalibur wrote: | | ruveyn wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | bizboy1 wrote: | | There are more men that are simply intellectually superior. It's a fact. |
Unless you have some form of proof I disagree both men and women are equal intellectually. |
There are far more male mathematicians and theoretical physicists than female.
ruveyn |
Your statistical sample is not suitable for taking conclusions (duh, BTW).
While this discussion is not showing any relevant information in regards of gender and intelligence it is doing great work at showing that some men are terribad at science. |
Does not change the facts. More male mathematicians and theoretical physicists than female. There is a difference in the way male brains work from the way female brains work on average.
ruveyn |
that does not mean that men are smarter, though.
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Vexcalibur
Proud to be smug as heck
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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Just counting the amount of mathematicians and theoretical physicists is a terrible method, that's probably the map you won't find a paper in nature magazine saying "more boys are teh phycisits ergo women are bad at mathz" . Your experiment would, for starters, need a control group.
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ruveyn
Phoenix
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Age: 76
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Vexcalibur wrote: | | Just counting the amount of mathematicians and theoretical physicists is a terrible method, that's probably the map you won't find a paper in nature magazine saying "more boys are teh phycisits ergo women are bad at mathz" . Your experiment would, for starters, need a control group. |
The mathematicians and physicists have more influence on what the world is than other groups.
Consider that we are communicating by a computer network. Who made that?
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Vexcalibur
Proud to be smug as heck
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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A woman was the first computer programmer, so you tell me.
You are avoiding the actual point, that just counting mathematicians is incredibly terrible science. It does not matter if the field is more relevant or not. You are not considering that you are taking a biased sample.
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simon_says
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Posts: 2443
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Just saying that there are more of this or that in a given profession doesnt account for the cultural selection that led to those results.
It may well be that there are discernable racial (or population) and gender IQ gaps and that IQ measures intelligence. White males have larger brains than blacks or women. But so do whales. I don't believe we know enough to be sure yet how it all fits together. Your mileage may vary. |
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Tollorin
Lazy Cat
Joined: Jun 15, 2009
Age: 31
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Location: Sherbrooke,Québec, Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| TM wrote: | | At my IQ level I believe its statistically 1 woman for every 6 males. |
May be from outdated data. I remenber reading somewhere that the proportion of female/male for very high IQ has raised over time as female have more and more access to intellectually stimulating activities. A girl gifted in math is now more likelly to have access to math advanced education and competitions, for example, raising the measured IQ.
| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | NarcissusSavage wrote: | | Given that IQ tests are the most established means of quantifying intelligence, and given that men as a group score higher on IQ tests than women, then it follows that men (still as a group, remember) are more intelligent than women. |
A relatively recent study conducted by psychologists at Edinburgh University found that the overall IQ difference between men and women is only marginal, but there is a far greater variance in IQ among men. Men seem to be more likely to be either in the top or the bottom percentiles of intelligence. Which means that as a group, men are both more intelligent and more stupid than women. As individuals, they are more likely to be either geniuses or village idiots.
Here is a link to the study: http://www.subjectpool.com/ed_papers/2007/Deary2007Intelligence451-456_Brother_sister_sex_differences.pdf
This would explain why female college / university graduates outnumber male ones, and why men at the same time far outnumber women in fields like theoretical science. It also provides a partial explanation as to why there were (and, what is more puzzling, still are) no female equivalents of Newton and Einstein, Bach and Beethoven, or Shakespeare and Chekhov. |
More like female never had the opportunitie, never heard of Fanny Mendelssohn? She was possibly as good or better musician that her brother, but it's his brother who got success. |
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