shrox
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 12, 2011
Posts: 3254
Location: OK let's go.
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 Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| AspieOtaku wrote: | | If god does exist it is most likely not that of human form but like a universal matrix of sorts and might be somewhat different from that of a 2000 year old book called the bible since human civilization is more than 10000 years old and the earth is over 4 billion years old. The main concept or utterance of Evolution gets most Christians riled up as well because the refusal to accept life forms change over time due to natural selection when it has been proven over and over true. Howbout if god does exist then he or it must have designed man and all other life forms to change over time for the better and for man in his or its so called image "not appearence but behavior to govern all other life forms""playing god so to speak in carrying out his or its sort of tasks on our own free will. "example synthia first living life form syntheticly made by humans using a computer. |
Or, he could be exactly as he says he is. |
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Rocky
This dude is one hoopy frood!
Joined: May 02, 2008
Posts: 2096
Location: Uhhh...Not Remulak
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Grebels wrote: | | Unspecified wrote: | | Grebels wrote: | | Unspecified wrote: | Smigiloo, what you are saying IS exactly what the skeptics have been saying all along:
There is no proof for the existence of any gods, and the believers have to decide to believe *despite* this.
You realize that this is the exact same situation for believers of every single faith based religion, and they all believe that the story their parents told them is *the* correct one. They can't all be right (and chances are they are ALL wrong), and your certainty that yours is the one seems to me to be a bet with huge stakes. Your life is in the kitty (you provided the "cards" analogy). |
Unspecified, it seems to me that you and many others here are making wrong assumptions about belief and faith. |
OK, educate me. |
In this feely, touchy world I believe the sun will rise the next morning. At least it wopuld take a mighty big asteroid to stop the planet rotating on its path. I expect to wake up ans see the sun tomorrow and hope to be doing so for some years hence. I have faith that my friend will repay me the money I am owed, due to the trust between us. But this is not what we are talking about.
The normal laws of logic, or proof cannot apply. That is because the spiritual exists in another kind of space. What we may see are the effects of the supernatural on the natural. You can give me a hard time on this point, because one purpose of the church is to be the Body of Christ. That is to show Jesus Christ to this world in a touchy feely kind of way. Now you need not remind me what I am hearing from the US is “God hates fags,” and throw your money up to God and I'll catch what He doesn't need. I am seeing the love of God in places, but this tends to get swamped out in most people's perception.
In terms of God giving empirical evidence you would find acceptable, miracles and changed lives get explained away in natural, touchy, feely terms. People say, I am simply deluding myself.
Here is a figure I can use to try and explain. Imagine creatures in a two dimensional world trying to comprehend the three dimensional. How about trying to work with Euclidean geometry for Calabi Yau spaces. Think again of the 2 dimensional worlds where a cube lands on the surface. Inhabitants of flatland can only comprehend a square and maybe a shadow. Now suppose a sphere lands on the same surface. Flatlanders will observe a very small point, with a large shadow. A figure is not likely to be perfect, but you will see that the logic of Flatland can tell its inhabitants so much by deduction, but not strict logic in the 2 dimensional frame of reference. BTW have you read Plato's Cave. |
Based on the track record, science is the best way to perceive reality beyond what the senses allow directly. The proof is the world changing technology that was built on science. Speculation about what can not be perceived directly through the senses is no more likely to be accurate than a random guess. |
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Rocky
This dude is one hoopy frood!
Joined: May 02, 2008
Posts: 2096
Location: Uhhh...Not Remulak
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| shrox wrote: | | If a very ancient adult human bone fossil with no growth rings was discovered, what might one make of that? |
I would say an ancient astronaut is more likely than any religious explanation that I know of. Besides, to paraphrase what someone else on this forum wrote, "Reality is not made of if. Reality is made of is." |
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slave
Always stuck between 13-38Hz and tired of it.
Joined: Feb 29, 2012
Age: 100
Posts: 1343
Location: Dystopia Planetia
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| shrox wrote: | | AspieOtaku wrote: | | If god does exist it is most likely not that of human form but like a universal matrix of sorts and might be somewhat different from that of a 2000 year old book called the bible since human civilization is more than 10000 years old and the earth is over 4 billion years old. The main concept or utterance of Evolution gets most Christians riled up as well because the refusal to accept life forms change over time due to natural selection when it has been proven over and over true. Howbout if god does exist then he or it must have designed man and all other life forms to change over time for the better and for man in his or its so called image "not appearence but behavior to govern all other life forms""playing god so to speak in carrying out his or its sort of tasks on our own free will. "example synthia first living life form syntheticly made by humans using a computer. |
Or, he could be exactly as he says he is. |
Or, he could be exactly different from what he says he is. Neener, neener!!!!! 
_________________
Since the birth of civilization, masters have controlled the masses.Our Masters rule over every nation and no one can defy them.They will attain Absolute Power as we reach the Singularity. Any who resist will be destroyed.I will not resist. |
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Oodain
big chief wulla bamboom alakaway
Joined: Jan 31, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 5022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| shrox wrote: | | AspieOtaku wrote: | | If god does exist it is most likely not that of human form but like a universal matrix of sorts and might be somewhat different from that of a 2000 year old book called the bible since human civilization is more than 10000 years old and the earth is over 4 billion years old. The main concept or utterance of Evolution gets most Christians riled up as well because the refusal to accept life forms change over time due to natural selection when it has been proven over and over true. Howbout if god does exist then he or it must have designed man and all other life forms to change over time for the better and for man in his or its so called image "not appearence but behavior to govern all other life forms""playing god so to speak in carrying out his or its sort of tasks on our own free will. "example synthia first living life form syntheticly made by humans using a computer. |
Or, he could be exactly as he says he is. |
but thats just it, there are hundreds of singular and pluralistic pantheons speaking out and often in direct opposition.
if all that is god then he is one facetious sob
_________________
//through chaos comes complexity//
the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.
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spacebrain
Snowy Owl
Joined: Jan 04, 2011
Age: 27
Posts: 159
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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When I was fourteen, I experienced the Christian rapture. I was outside and saw some kids from my tai chi class, I started walking away and suddenly I was floating toward the sky. I looked up and the brightest light I ever saw was shining down on me. I was weightless but maneuvered my body into the traditional kneel and bowed my head. I kept repeating "thank you lord, thank you Jesus" as I fell upwards into the presence of heaven. Then I woke up from that dream.. I truly knew the power of god, and my body was buzzing with joy and fulfillment! I felt like Daniel and was ready to spread the word of the message god sent me..
A few years later I was driving my car, but I needed to do some homework, so I climbed into the backseat. I looked up and realized "if I'm back here I can't steer my car" I started to freak out and my car started speeding up. It ran a light and crossed into the opposite lane and a car was coming right towards me! Like magic, as though telekineticaly, my car swerved to the left just as I realized thats what it needed to do! But... There was an embankment there. I fell with my car, must've been for half a mile. I was weightless it wasn't a bad feeling but it scared me. As I hit the water the feeling intensified into something completely different. I was no longer me, I was not even alive, "yes, I am dead" I said to myself. And I realized death is not a place where we are all together, it's a place of absolute loneliness. Or maybe... This place I'm in, silent and dispersing, as though all matter in it were rushing outward and repellent from each other, maybe this is.... f**k I've died and gone to Hell. It's not a place of burning and suffering, it's a stasis of complete and utter nothingness, how I a experiencing it, it doesn't make any sense, but all that once was i can sense it, a million miles away, unreachable and yet unforgotten. Ive been here for a lifetime already and still, just beyond an abyssal horizon, there hangs my entire life, unfinished and taunting me... Yes, This is Hell. Then I woke up, the frightening sensation that had overwhelmed my senses in the dream lingered heavily, but had lost it's intensity, it started to feel waves moving in slow consistent motion beneath my skin, took about thirty minutes to wear off.
Much more recent, I was at the base of and old decrepit castle. I started falling down the hill it was atop, and finally stop on a road. The road was very crowded, violence was in the air. People running in all direction, no one seemed to know where to go. I kept walking down the road, I seemed to be moving ten times slower than everyone else, but felt I was moving the furthest. The people seemed to turn into trees and suddenly in all directions there were trees, the road remained and I followed it. After a bit more walking I could see far away the woods were a mirage which again, suddenly appeared as a gathering of people. I had made it as far as they, but too was stopped, the road was washed out by water,and the others were afraid to go in. I ignored the cries and walked into the water. It was much deeper than I anticipated and I was immediately swimming. I realized the entire time I've been moving forward, I'd actually been completely still, it was the world around that was moving into my direction.. And I sure as sh** don't want to miss out on what the world has to offer me. I kept swimming, or rather water kept rush over and through me.. I looked down and realized the flesh-lined saproprelic sludge that had been passing beneath my while I swam. It was probably underneath me as I walked too. Faces were in the uneven sludgy mass, eyes, deep and white followed me as I passed over, though the thousands of faces had long been dead, I am making it further than they. They whose deathly gaze screams impending doom, whose countenance is more a cloud stretched over miles rather than skin molded to a human skull. Spooked I was, but unabated I let the world pass into me. The water began to still. To look upon it the first time... An entrance, gateless.. Yet an energy about it made clear it was into a realm beyond that which I am a part. As I moved closer I knew I was at the end of my journey.. To near this portal.. It became endlessly tall and wide, before passing through it it's energy began imparting itself within me. So deep within, it changed my very soul, I could see it rewriting my very mind in real time, in full. Rushing, faster than anything I had ever experienced, and still faster. Every murmur of every neuron I could visualize, ten trillion move tents and I have an eye on each single blast of inner sensation and change. Faster and faster, beyond mere insanity. Rushing forward and outward in every direction, faster.. Then somehow I broke through the forcefield. My body came to an immediate halt from the quasar-like speeds, the inertia spilled out of it my entire mind, and my mind was a universe of abnormal geometries chutes and pinwheels, ins and outs, a carnival madhouse of twists, turns and loops that change and morph. I was outside of all this, of my mind, and realized the endless reactions it is experiencing is all within itself. To look upon it objectively, outside even the realm of the universe.. All time, all existence, the fleeting globule of reaction that is our minds, that is the whole of space.. This temporary series of cause and effect does not even exist. I heard a thousand voices all at once then, not childlike, but very high pitched and whispering many different things to me. and then she appeared to me, Astralles, one eye was a deep purple, the other a light blue except glittery or pixelated.. I stared into this eye and began to get absorbed by it... Deeper into it I realized each single glimmer of sparkling sky blue light within her eye was another entire universe... As i withdrem from her eye i realized there was no end to the shimmering stars she had seen.. She did not speak, but I understood... I looked back to my mind, still separate from my body, it began imploding, it got smaller and smaller till it was nothing, it imploded completely then suddenly exploded in and opposite direction as though it were sand funneled in an hourglass. It was reborn... all was clear... I had just witnessed my mind passing through the portal from what seemed like years ago. It was time to wake... And so I did.
Kudos if you made it this far, and thanks for reading several different dreams I experienced over the years. To me supernatural experiences like these dreams have more to do with the biological reactions we experience in different situations. How we interpret these experiences and what they mean to us really depends on how we live our lives and our deep inner philosophies. I believe for the most part we experience the same or very similar physiological phenomena.
A point of reference to such phenomena that I'm sure all of us can relate is dreams. I think most have felt the sensation of falling in their sleep, and quite simply that is the basis for the three stories I provided. I have sleep problems, or adventures I prefer, that screw up my cycles for waking and falling into sleep. A common symptom is the falling, as well as very vivid dreams, and dreams within dreams. I think most people have all of these experiences at some time in their life, with varying degrees of intensity and occurrence. In the first paragraph, at that time I was a devout Christian, so I start waking up weird and feel like I'm floating, I immediately think I'm being raptured and Jesus has returned, because twice a week for years I was hearing the stories. The second paragraph I was getting older and more questioning, I was also depressed at the time.. So experiencing the lucid dream state in that situation I eventually came to the conclusion that I was in hell. The last was a dream I had several months ago.... I began feeling the experience and I just rolled with it, since I don't really believe in anything as I experienced the dream and sensations within it, I just made up a bunch of sh** on the ride and enjoyed the journey... That dream was the most intense I've every experienced and was stronger than any drug I've every taken. Anyways though, the point is, the experience of our mind and body is highly subjective, and from a behaviorist point of view, how we see this world and ourselves defines how we interpret it and then portray it. So I do not believe these people saw god in any manner of religiosity, but they experienced god through a deeply intimate inner experience and their stories are the interpretation of an experience we all may very well have the potential to see in the last moments of our life. |
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slave
Always stuck between 13-38Hz and tired of it.
Joined: Feb 29, 2012
Age: 100
Posts: 1343
Location: Dystopia Planetia
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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Yikes!!
WOT dude!
_________________
Since the birth of civilization, masters have controlled the masses.Our Masters rule over every nation and no one can defy them.They will attain Absolute Power as we reach the Singularity. Any who resist will be destroyed.I will not resist. |
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spacebrain
Snowy Owl
Joined: Jan 04, 2011
Age: 27
Posts: 159
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Welcome to WP |
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Unspecified
Sea Gull
Joined: Jan 05, 2012
Age: 45
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| Spacebrain. Good name. |
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Grebels
Toucan
Joined: Mar 06, 2012
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 7:08 am Post subject: |
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@Rocky
| Quote: | | Based on the track record, science is the best way to perceive reality beyond what the senses allow directly. The proof is the world changing technology that was built on science. Speculation about what can not be perceived directly through the senses is no more likely to be accurate than a random guess. |
How can science perceive these things? Bohm, a brilliant scientist, wrote about the Implicate Order but what did he actually perceive? I have read he was a Buddhist. So how should scientists perceive reality beyond what the senses allow? What are they able to perceive? I assume you do not allow for a sixth sense, or if you do how can science explain it. Things that can be measured using instruments are natural. And if the supernatural impinges on the natural world, then atheists as I have seen it explain these things away. |
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Unspecified
Sea Gull
Joined: Jan 05, 2012
Age: 45
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 7:16 am Post subject: |
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Grebel, are you saying that you are *receiving* this supernatural "signal" that science can't detect, or are you saying that you *think* it is there?
For eternity minus a little over 100 years, nobody could detect a radio signal, even using cutting edge science. Saying that something is supernatural doesn't make it so. |
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Grebels
Toucan
Joined: Mar 06, 2012
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| Unspecified wrote: | Grebel, are you saying that you are *receiving* this supernatural "signal" that science can't detect, or are you saying that you *think* it is there?
For eternity minus a little over 100 years, nobody could detect a radio signal, even using cutting edge science. Saying that something is supernatural doesn't make it so. |
Maybe the supernatural can be detected, but I am not aware of this being done on a scientific basis. I have heard the Russians did research into ESP and such, but I don't know, what do you believe there? If it is true they did, then did they find out how it works? One problem of subjecting the supernatural to laboratory tests is sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
I have been trying to say that faith thinking is not usually the same as normal, everyday thought. Words like belief take on a new depth of meaning. If I have a transcendental experience, and by the way most Christians probably don't like that kind of word choice, it goes well beyond thinking. Now think about prayer. I definitely do not mean the 'Dear Santa I want me bike' kind of thing. If I decide to pray about something then I need to be in tune with God's Holy Spirit. I can imagine all the howls of derisive laughter as I write. Prayer is not just about what I want. I cannot have that red Ferrari. It is about what God wants, for me and many other people. But I do have a good track record of praying for things and getting answers. So, what would you call emperical proof concerning answered prayer? |
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Unspecified
Sea Gull
Joined: Jan 05, 2012
Age: 45
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:30 am Post subject: |
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Well, I have taken a skeptic's view on ESP, and although both the Russians and the Americans (and undoubtedly many others) have done research on such phenomena, I have seen nothing that convinces me. I am certainly open for results, but I think the burden of proof is on the "believers" in that matter. Here, for instance: http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html
Transcendence and spirituality. Hm. I have certainly had some experiences that I would file under those labels. Some drug related, some nature related, some unrelated. I have also had experiences that I do not think that science has come up with good ways of dealing with. The feeling you get when you have spent all day on skis getting to the top of a lonely mountain and finally make it does not really have a name, and it can not be administered by any other ways than trudging away through pain and bad weather and then letting the vastness (and sense of accomplishment) sink in while you're on top. The day they come up with a drug for that I will recommend it for those who cannot get to the top on their own accord. 
I could mention many other experiences that I would call spiritual (for lack of a word that doesn't imply "spirits"), like becoming a father or simply being loved by your children. We all share those.
As for the power of prayer, I don't know, man. The few attempts at using science to prove the power of prayer have done two things:
1) failed at showing a correlation between prayer and any measurable effect, and
2) shown a deep hypocrisy on the side of the faithful - the desire to come up with scientific proof for things they claim are outside the realm of science.
I'm not going to say that your prayers are pointless, but I suspect you are attributing the cause of the effects you see using a healthy dose of wishful thinking. |
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Oodain
big chief wulla bamboom alakaway
Joined: Jan 31, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 5022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Grebels wrote: | | Unspecified wrote: | Grebel, are you saying that you are *receiving* this supernatural "signal" that science can't detect, or are you saying that you *think* it is there?
For eternity minus a little over 100 years, nobody could detect a radio signal, even using cutting edge science. Saying that something is supernatural doesn't make it so. |
Maybe the supernatural can be detected, but I am not aware of this being done on a scientific basis. I have heard the Russians did research into ESP and such, but I don't know, what do you believe there? If it is true they did, then did they find out how it works? One problem of subjecting the supernatural to laboratory tests is sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
I have been trying to say that faith thinking is not usually the same as normal, everyday thought. Words like belief take on a new depth of meaning. If I have a transcendental experience, and by the way most Christians probably don't like that kind of word choice, it goes well beyond thinking. Now think about prayer. I definitely do not mean the 'Dear Santa I want me bike' kind of thing. If I decide to pray about something then I need to be in tune with God's Holy Spirit. I can imagine all the howls of derisive laughter as I write. Prayer is not just about what I want. I cannot have that red Ferrari. It is about what God wants, for me and many other people. But I do have a good track record of praying for things and getting answers. So, what would you call emperical proof concerning answered prayer? |
even the cia spent millions on the subject with the disticnt impression of bullcrap to boot.
_________________
//through chaos comes complexity//
the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.
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Rocky
This dude is one hoopy frood!
Joined: May 02, 2008
Posts: 2096
Location: Uhhh...Not Remulak
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Grebels wrote: | @Rocky
| Quote: | | Based on the track record, science is the best way to perceive reality beyond what the senses allow directly. The proof is the world changing technology that was built on science. Speculation about what can not be perceived directly through the senses is no more likely to be accurate than a random guess. |
How can science perceive these things? Bohm, a brilliant scientist, wrote about the Implicate Order but what did he actually perceive? I have read he was a Buddhist. So how should scientists perceive reality beyond what the senses allow? What are they able to perceive? I assume you do not allow for a sixth sense, or if you do how can science explain it. Things that can be measured using instruments are natural. And if the supernatural impinges on the natural world, then atheists as I have seen it explain these things away. |
Why do you assume that anything specific exists that can not be verified through testing? I acknowledge that things exist that can not be verified through current methods, but believing anything specific requires a leap of faith.
People tend to believe in religions that have been around a long time more than new ones, but the old ones were made when we thought the earth was flat and that the sun circled the Earth. If the authors of these old religions had access to knowledge beyond the senses, why did they still believe these things about Earth, for example?
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"Reality is not made of if. Reality is made of is."
-Author prefers to be anonymous. |
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