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LKL
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Age: 37
Posts: 5696
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 Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Gay rights is one of the few areas where Obama has actually accomplished some concrete progressive goals during his first term. I don't expect gay marriage to be legal across the whole country by the end of his second, but I do expect that the gains that they've made will be so firmly ensconced in our culture that no future government will dare to take them away. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12797
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| AstroGeek wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | And announcing his support for gay marriage was an endorsement for civil rights (for gays) that no other president ever had the courage to make. I believe it possible that Obama will lead the fight for marriage equality in his second term.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
I don't. He's already said that it is a personal opinion and that the actual decision will remain up to the states. This will suddenly drop totally off the radar if he's re-elected. |
I disagree. I believe his standoffish attitude toward gay marriage during his first campaign for the White House was more a matter of political strategy. That doesn't mean he may not have had a long term plan early on to address the matter. Just consider how Lincoln had stood back from ending slavery till the time was right. I think it possible that Obama may take on anti-gay marriage legislation at the state level before his second term is up.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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AstroGeek
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Joined: Jan 29, 2011
Age: 19
Posts: 1479
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | | AstroGeek wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | And announcing his support for gay marriage was an endorsement for civil rights (for gays) that no other president ever had the courage to make. I believe it possible that Obama will lead the fight for marriage equality in his second term.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
I don't. He's already said that it is a personal opinion and that the actual decision will remain up to the states. This will suddenly drop totally off the radar if he's re-elected. |
I disagree. I believe his standoffish attitude toward gay marriage during his first campaign for the White House was more a matter of political strategy. That doesn't mean he may not have had a long term plan early on to address the matter. Just consider how Lincoln had stood back from ending slavery till the time was right. I think it possible that Obama may take on anti-gay marriage legislation at the state level before his second term is up.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Maybe I'm just too cynical when it comes to Obama. I just can't get over the fact that the guy who was supposed to be the hero of the left looks an awful lot like the Conservative Party of Canada. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12797
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| AstroGeek wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | AstroGeek wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | And announcing his support for gay marriage was an endorsement for civil rights (for gays) that no other president ever had the courage to make. I believe it possible that Obama will lead the fight for marriage equality in his second term.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
I don't. He's already said that it is a personal opinion and that the actual decision will remain up to the states. This will suddenly drop totally off the radar if he's re-elected. |
I disagree. I believe his standoffish attitude toward gay marriage during his first campaign for the White House was more a matter of political strategy. That doesn't mean he may not have had a long term plan early on to address the matter. Just consider how Lincoln had stood back from ending slavery till the time was right. I think it possible that Obama may take on anti-gay marriage legislation at the state level before his second term is up.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Maybe I'm just too cynical when it comes to Obama. I just can't get over the fact that the guy who was supposed to be the hero of the left looks an awful lot like the Conservative Party of Canada. |
I think he was trying to make inroads to the right in order to get things done, when in fact, the right had no interest in helping him govern. In fact, they only wanted to see him fail - a fact that he has since realized. Hopefully, we'll see more progressive policies coming from him.
-Bill, otherwise as Kraichgauer |
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simon_says
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2011
Posts: 2443
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Obama sounded like a cautious centrist in the campaign to me. He won by seeming steady and judicious. I was a Hillary voter because I preferred her combative nature and her experience with the sausage making of politics and foreign policy. She had no illusions about who her enemies were and how they behave. Not that I believe that Obama really believed he could impress right-wingers. That was just rhetoric. But Obama has been better than I expected on some issues that I care about. Not perfect but good enough.
Politics isnt about getting a new pony from daddy every day. Ive never seen it anyway. |
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Dox47
Consigliere
Joined: Jan 29, 2008
Posts: 5197
Location: Seattle Area
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Best. Obama. Analogy. EVER |
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| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | Actually, Dox, I think that I am thoroughly justified at this point in saying that you are an idiot. |
And I'd be perfectly justified in saying you're detached from reality.
I'd also be perfectly justified in asking for a ban considering the shear number of times you've gratuitously attacked me personally, but like the president I have no problem brushing a bit of dirt off my shoulders.
| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | The original statement suggested that Obama had made a promise to end the wars, which is a promise he never made, period. He promised that he would pursue al Qaeda, which he has done and is doing. |
Maybe if you squint real hard and whack yourself over the head a few times, but if you simply READ it it says: "Obama tricked anti-war voters into thinking that he wouldn't order American troops into battle unless there was an imminent threat to America or a declaration of war from Congress, then went to war in Libya, violating the War Powers Resolution, even though neither condition was met."
No Iraq, no promises about ending wars, just that he misled voters by claiming to be anti-war and then got involved in another one both unilaterally and illegally. If you want to go there, I can bring up the lawyer shopping he did to get his view of the War Powers Resolution rubber stamped, antics that would have put the W administration to shame.
| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | When are you going to realize, Dox, that Obama has been an excellent president, and you have been a sorry ingrate? Are you simply a born as*hole? Are you lacking in any scruples whatsoever? Do you deserve to have your balls cut off and stapled to your freaking forehead? Arguing with you is a totally boring waste of time, even on the rare occasions that you put out a freaking effort. |
When he starts acting like an excellent president and not like W 2.0.
When are you going to realize that you lose all credibility whatsoever when you lose control and go over the top like this?
When are you going to realize that I could chop your legs out from under you at any time by simply linking to your activities as a Democratic Party member and activist, that you've so proudly boasted of here before?
When are you going to realize that you shouldn't try and post when you're mid-meltdown or whatever it is you have going on?
You're not only embarrassing yourself here, but the very cause you're trying to defend; if all of Obama's evangelists acted like this we'd be well on our way to president Romney.
_________________
Unconditional allegiance is the surest way to render one’s beliefs and agenda irrelevant
Any power that government has to do something you like will invariably be used for something you abhor
Murum aries attigit |
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WilliamWDelaney
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Joined: Apr 27, 2011
Posts: 1201
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Best. Obama. Analogy. EVER |
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| Dox47 wrote: | | When are you going to realize that you lose all credibility whatsoever when you lose control and go over the top like this? |
I feel free to give you a well-deserved--and for me highly satisfying--tongue-lashing because anybody who has actually bothered to keep track of this discussion realizes that you have been playing games.
You are thoroughly conscious of how bogus your claims in the OP actually are. Anyone literate here realizes this by now. And no, I am not going to trouble myself to try to drag an admission out of you. You might have honest reasons for not liking Obama, but they sure aren't the ones you posted in the OP. They are land mines to slow people down, and only a fool would take them seriously.
| Quote: | | When are you going to realize that I could chop your legs out from under you at any time... |
You tried that before, and it got you nowhere.
| Quote: | | ...mid-meltdown or whatever it is you have going on? |
It's called "bipolar affective disorder."
| Quote: | | ...if all of Obama's evangelists acted like this we'd be well on our way to president Romney. |
And I am one of the few people out there who aren't trying to make that out to be a doomsday scenario. I see our politicians in general as under-appreciated, and the culture of cynicism in American politics is not giving us better politicians, just more extreme ones. Exhibit A: the Tea Bag Party.
Note how I responded to the thread on Romney's bullying behavior during prep school: I'm the only liberal involved in the discussion who isn't calling him a "scumbag" or something. In fact, I am the only person around here sometimes who gives a crap about forming legitimate conclusions than just spouting whatever sanctimonious drivel seems to be satisfying. More me the fool because I don't think this kind of bull crap "debate" environment is intended to be taken particularly seriously. It's all posturing and foolish drivel, and nobody is ever truly held accountable, in a systematic way, for the accuracy of their claims.
In fact, the intensive study that I put into these issues is really just a reflection of my bipolar affective disorder, which seems to compel me to read through several thousand pages of highly arcane material and actually put in enough sweat equity to actually study and understand it. However, the drawback to this extreme level of intellectual energy is that it is impossible to really hold it to any standard of discipline. It takes on very much a life of its own, and it acts with its own agenda in mind. It's like popping a bunch of black beauties to help you study for your exam: you might get a lot done, but it's a crap shoot WHAT you get done.
But I do have style: I actually bothered to track down actual statements made by Barack Obama in 2008, which most people wouldn't even have the ability to track down. I was pressed for time, though, so the information I dug up didn't fit perfectly with the claims I was trying to address at the time. I was heading off in just an hour from then to a three-day graduation party. And let me tell you, I have NEVER drunk so much booze, man. I don't know how I wasn't too hungover to write that tirade at you when I got back. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12797
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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WilliamWDellany@
Congratulations of graduating. 
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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WilliamWDelaney
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 27, 2011
Posts: 1201
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | WilliamWDellany@
Congratulations of graduating. |
It was my kid sister's graduation, actually. It was so great. My grandmother is this 80 year old teetotaler and hasn't had a drink all her life, but she played beer pong and had my sister's SO drinking her beers for her. Which he appreciated. And I usually don't drink all that much, but something feral awakens in me when the Pabst Blue Ribbon comes out. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12797
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | WilliamWDellany@
Congratulations of graduating. |
It was my kid sister's graduation, actually. It was so great. My grandmother is this 80 year old teetotaler and hasn't had a drink all her life, but she played beer pong and had my sister's SO drinking her beers for her. Which he appreciated. And I usually don't drink all that much, but something feral awakens in me when the Pabst Blue Ribbon comes out. |
"Heineken?!?! f**k that sh**! PABST BLUE RIBBON!!!!!!!"
-Dennis Hopper as Frank Booth in Blue Velvet.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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WilliamWDelaney
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 27, 2011
Posts: 1201
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Best. Obama. Analogy. EVER |
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| AstroGeek wrote: | | WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | Quote: | | We're talking Libya here, it SAYS SO RIGHT IN THE QUOTE. |
The war in Libya was fought by Libyans, and the US was doing its part in a multilateral, international effort. It was a laudable diplomatic maneuver that helped us considerably in reestablishing our credibility. |
Yes, Libyans were fighting. But America was also dropping bombs on the country, killing some civilians as collateral damage. That was not America's place within the R2P mandate. Responsibility to protect civilian life means that the first priority should have been a ceasefire, with the secondary priority being getting rid of Gaddafi by diplomatic means. It is not the US's place to decide to institute regime change (especially considering all of the dictators you've supported over the years) and only gives credibility to the anti-American sentiment in places like Iran and Venezuela. |
Obama's handling of Libya constituted some of the finest diplomatic maneuvering in history. The only thing that compares (and massively exceeds it) is Churchill's handling of FDR during World War II.
Trying to play like Libya somehow counts against Obama is just retarded. |
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Dox47
Consigliere
Joined: Jan 29, 2008
Posts: 5197
Location: Seattle Area
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Best. Obama. Analogy. EVER |
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| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | In fact, the intensive study that I put into these issues is really just a reflection of my bipolar affective disorder, which seems to compel me to read through several thousand pages of highly arcane material and actually put in enough sweat equity to actually study and understand it. However, the drawback to this extreme level of intellectual energy is that it is impossible to really hold it to any standard of discipline. It takes on very much a life of its own, and it acts with its own agenda in mind. It's like popping a bunch of black beauties to help you study for your exam: you might get a lot done, but it's a crap shoot WHAT you get done.
But I do have style: I actually bothered to track down actual statements made by Barack Obama in 2008, which most people wouldn't even have the ability to track down. I was pressed for time, though, so the information I dug up didn't fit perfectly with the claims I was trying to address at the time. I was heading off in just an hour from then to a three-day graduation party. And let me tell you, I have NEVER drunk so much booze, man. I don't know how I wasn't too hungover to write that tirade at you when I got back. |
So you got high (on yourself), went into an information seeking trance/frenzy, and then dug up quotes addressing the wrong points? Well, I suppose I'll accept this tacit admission of straw-manning, if only for the novelty.
_________________
Unconditional allegiance is the surest way to render one’s beliefs and agenda irrelevant
Any power that government has to do something you like will invariably be used for something you abhor
Murum aries attigit |
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SpiritBlooms
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 15, 2009
Posts: 1024
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree, and yet I'll vote for him because Romney would be much much worse! I think it's time to start looking for the new breed of politician. :-/ Oh wait, there was one, his name is Kucinich, and he just lost his House seat... This is why politics depresses me so much. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29338
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| SpiritBlooms wrote: | | I agree, and yet I'll vote for him because Romney would be much much worse! I think it's time to start looking for the new breed of politician. :-/ Oh wait, there was one, his name is Kucinich, and he just lost his House seat... This is why politics depresses me so much. |
Kuchinich is a closet Progressive. Just another pinko stinko lefty liberal.
ruveyn |
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Dox47
Consigliere
Joined: Jan 29, 2008
Posts: 5197
Location: Seattle Area
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| SpiritBlooms wrote: | | I agree, and yet I'll vote for him because Romney would be much much worse! |
Would he?
_________________
Unconditional allegiance is the surest way to render one’s beliefs and agenda irrelevant
Any power that government has to do something you like will invariably be used for something you abhor
Murum aries attigit |
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