ZX_SpectrumDisorder
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 25, 2012
Posts: 1608
Location: Ireland
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 Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| ValentineWiggin wrote: | | ZX_SpectrumDisorder wrote: | | Yes, but the point is no-one cares. It's like the cliche of complaining about being big-boned. No-one gives a sh**. |
That's why it's laughable to attempt to engage some people in conversation about the subject-
people prefer to cling to simplistic myths which allow them to assign blame to people they (not-so) secretly-judge. |
Yes, not everyone who is fat, is fat as a cause of some medical complication, some are lazy, take no exercise and overeat. The perception for most is the latter. People judge, go figure. To suggest there isn't a negative slight toward fat people in society is laughable. You either know this or you need help understanding because of your Spock-like AS.
This is just going in circles and frankly I've had enough of being browbeaten by shut-ins. |
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Kurgan
I'm always right
Joined: Apr 07, 2012
Age: 24
Posts: 1851
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| ValentineWiggin wrote: |
You're ignorant because you repeatedly post blatantly non-scientific declarations as if they're fact. |
If it's been proven right, it's not non-scientific. Obese people will always find excuses to why "they simply look like that", regardless of what science proves.
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Weight is determined not only by diet-n-exercise, but by an amalgamation of factors, including genetics, the environment- physiological and psychological, socio-economic class, race, medical disorders, and more. |
It's determined primarily by diet and exercise. When it comes to genetics, thyroid problems aren't even remotely common in women below 50 and several studies have shown that most fat people don't have a slow metabolism.
When it comes to socio-economic factors, high protein food, fruit and oats are very cheap. The stuff about race is BS; I've never seen a race where everyone's fat.
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The level of your obsession with the myth that it's easy to be thin or even "achievable" for all people is such that you essentially assert anyone who differs from your paradigm is deluded or stupid. |
300 lb people who claim that this is how Mother Nature intended them to look, are deluded. Being thin isn't easy, but it is achievable for (litteraly) 99% of the population.
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You refuse to address the fact that a good portion of people who are obese suffer no actual health consequences for it. |
In Norway, obesity kills more people than smoking.
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If we want to talk about "fitness", let's talk about that-
there are overweight and obese people running marathons at this very moment.
Swimming. Biking. Hiking. And more. |
I've never seen a fat person who regularly ran marathon.
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And they stay obese because no one biological state is reducible to a single factor-
that's contrary to everything known about biology. |
They stay that way because they eat more than they burn. There are no (none, whatsoever) studies suggesting that people gravitate towards being fatter than their ideal weight, at least not enough studies to dispose of the scientifically accepted null hypothesis. Anyone who claims that genetics are singlehandedly responsible for their weight problems are beating a dead horse. |
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Kurgan
I'm always right
Joined: Apr 07, 2012
Age: 24
Posts: 1851
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| ZX_SpectrumDisorder wrote: | | ValentineWiggin wrote: | | ZX_SpectrumDisorder wrote: | | Yes, but the point is no-one cares. It's like the cliche of complaining about being big-boned. No-one gives a sh**. |
That's why it's laughable to attempt to engage some people in conversation about the subject-
people prefer to cling to simplistic myths which allow them to assign blame to people they (not-so) secretly-judge. |
Yes, not everyone who is fat, is fat as a cause of some medical complication, some are lazy, take no exercise and overeat. The perception for most is the latter. People judge, go figure. To suggest there isn't a negative slight toward fat people in society is laughable. You either know this or you need help understanding because of your Spock-like AS.
This is just going in circles and frankly I've had enough of being browbeaten by shut-ins. |
People who claim they're fat entirely because of genetics, might actually scare other obese people from trying to lose weight. |
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ValentineWiggin
Yup.
Joined: May 16, 2011
Posts: 4879
Location: Beneath my cat's paw
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ZX_SpectrumDisorder wrote: | | ValentineWiggin wrote: | | ZX_SpectrumDisorder wrote: | | Yes, but the point is no-one cares. It's like the cliche of complaining about being big-boned. No-one gives a sh**. |
That's why it's laughable to attempt to engage some people in conversation about the subject-
people prefer to cling to simplistic myths which allow them to assign blame to people they (not-so) secretly-judge. |
Yes, not everyone who is fat, is fat as a cause of some medical complication, some are lazy, take no exercise and overeat. The perception for most is the latter. People judge, go figure. To suggest there isn't a negative slight toward fat people in society is laughable. You either know this or you need help understanding because of your Spock-like AS.
This is just going in circles and frankly I've had enough of being browbeaten by shut-ins. |
I never said "most people" are fat because of a medical complication. I said being overweight or obese is an amalgamation of many factors, such as education, economic class, race, and more, because, statistically, IT IS. Unless you truly mean to imply uneducated poor people are for some reason more lazy than others? I'd think the opposite.
Urm. I know first-hand that there's prejudice against fat people, having been one most of my life.
Did you mean to respond to someone else with that bit?
_________________
"Such is the Frailty
of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest." |
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1000Knives
It's not difficult if you know how.
Joined: Jul 09, 2011
Age: 22
Posts: 4722
Location: CT, USA
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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Fat people should all just become super heavyweight powerlifters. They got their big boned and slow metabolism lemons and made lemonade. Yay.
_________________
Too kawaii to live...
Too sugoi to die! |
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Kurgan
I'm always right
Joined: Apr 07, 2012
Age: 24
Posts: 1851
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ValentineWiggin wrote: |
I never said "most people" are fat because of a medical complication. I said being overweight or obese is an amalgamation of many factors, such as education, economic class, race, and more, because, statistically, IT IS. Unless you truly mean to imply uneducated poor people are for some reason more lazy than others? I'd think the opposite. |
It's still a lifestyle choice. And yes, uneducated people are USUALLY lazier than educated ones.
You're responsible for buying healthy food you can afford; it's not the governments duty. |
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ValentineWiggin
Yup.
Joined: May 16, 2011
Posts: 4879
Location: Beneath my cat's paw
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Kurgan wrote: |
If it's been proven right, it's not non-scientific. Obese people will always find excuses to why "they simply look like that", regardless of what science proves. |
Scientific understanding of the determinants of a person's weight are and always have involved dozens of variables. In other threads, you've demonstrated your ignorance about such basic concepts of food deserts and flat-out declared everyone has access to healthy food. That type of dogmatic fantasy has all the credibility of Young Earth Creationism.
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It's determined primarily by diet and exercise. When it comes to genetics, thyroid problems aren't even remotely common in women below 50 and several studies have shown that most fat people don't have a slow metabolism. |
What's that have to do with anything?
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When it comes to socio-economic factors, high protein food, fruit and oats are very cheap. |
I have no clue where you live where produce is cheap as opposed to packaged processed food that's many times the calories.
Of the things which do provide adequate nutrition, they're usually things which require a lot of prep which most people are too exhausted for after working two or three wage jobs. They go to something quick, cheap, and that satisfies their food cravings. It's much easier to spend an hour cooking after a day in an air-conditioned office than a day + overtime working overtime in a minimum wage job.
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The stuff about race is BS; I've never seen a race where everyone's fat. |
Urm. You...you...have no understanding of what we're talking about, do you? Individuals of certain races are far more likely PROPORTIONALLY to be overweight or obese. No one said anything about "everyone" within any race being obese. O_o Handedness is related to sex. Does that mean ALL males are left-handed? Don't play stupid.
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The level of your obsession with the myth that it's easy to be thin or even "achievable" for all people is such that you essentially assert anyone who differs from your paradigm is deluded or stupid. |
300 lb people who claim that this is how Mother Nature intended them to look, are deluded. Being thin isn't easy, but it is achievable for (litteraly) 99% of the population. |
At what cost? Sometimes people simply don't WANT to flagellate themselves into an ideal they didn't create to make other people happy. It isn't worth it to them. I was far happier and healthier when I was obese, myself, as opposed to what's required for me to be thin. To me, it's irrelevant why my physiology is the way it is. The bottom line for me is that I'm not convinced of the inherent value of hours of exercise a day and eating practically nothing, which is what I've learned over a decade of trial and error is required for me to not become obese. At 215, I was more fertile than I am now at 115.
Such is why pretending we're talking about "health" will always illicit a few laughs. Let's talk about ACTUAL MARKERS OF HEALTH, like blood pressure, cholesterol, glucose, and physical fitness, as opposed to how much space someone takes up.
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In Norway, obesity kills more people than smoking. |
Obesity kills people? I have to see this. Link. (To save you some time, obesity-related factors, IE, diseases CORRELATED with obesity due to both being the result of exogenous variables, is not evidence.)
| Quote: | | I've never seen a fat person who regularly ran marathon. |
No, because people who stereotype millions of people only see what they want to see.
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They stay that way because they eat more than they burn. There are no (none, whatsoever) studies suggesting that people gravitate towards being fatter than their ideal weight, at least not enough studies to dispose of the scientifically accepted null hypothesis. Anyone who claims that genetics are singlehandedly responsible for their weight problems are beating a dead horse. |
Wait. We've figured out what the hell constitutes an "ideal" weight for people?  When was this?
You're strawmanning. The fact that the modern (and historical) understanding of weight includes far, far more than your absurdly-simplistic, black-and-white declarations doesn't constitute saying "genetics are singlehandedly responsible for...weight problems".
_________________
"Such is the Frailty
of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest." |
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ValentineWiggin
Yup.
Joined: May 16, 2011
Posts: 4879
Location: Beneath my cat's paw
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Kurgan wrote: |
It's still a lifestyle choice. And yes, uneducated people are USUALLY lazier than educated ones. |
Wow. I want to pause for a moment and absorb this.
Okay.
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You're responsible for buying healthy food you can afford; it's not the governments duty. |
So you do know food prices globally are astronomical at the moment? What does it mean to be declared "responsible" for buying healthy food when many people have no money with which to buy food AT ALL? There are people here who regularly have to choose between food and medication/electricity. You live in some sort of bubble.
_________________
"Such is the Frailty
of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest." |
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1000Knives
It's not difficult if you know how.
Joined: Jul 09, 2011
Age: 22
Posts: 4722
Location: CT, USA
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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_________________
Too kawaii to live...
Too sugoi to die! |
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ValentineWiggin
Yup.
Joined: May 16, 2011
Posts: 4879
Location: Beneath my cat's paw
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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^ Agreed.
_________________
"Such is the Frailty
of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest." |
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Kurgan
I'm always right
Joined: Apr 07, 2012
Age: 24
Posts: 1851
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| ValentineWiggin wrote: |
Scientific understanding of the determinants of a person's weight are and always have involved dozens of variables. In other threads, you've demonstrated your ignorance about such basic concepts of food deserts and flat-out declared everyone has access to healthy food. That type of dogmatic fantasy has all the credibility of Young Earth Creationism. |
Who are you calling a young earth creationist? You're the one making up claims with no scientific basis. Every American has access to healthy food as long as he/she is employed.
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What's that have to do with anything? |
Fat people often like blaming it on thyroid problems without consulting a physician.
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I have no clue where you live where produce is cheap as opposed to packaged processed food that's many times the calories. |
The US has some of the lowest food prices in the world, I've checked this myself.
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Of the things which do provide adequate nutrition, they're usually things which require a lot of prep which most people are too exhausted for after working two or three wage jobs. They go to something quick, cheap, and that satisfies their food cravings. It's much easier to spend an hour cooking after a day in an air-conditioned office than a day + overtime working overtime in a minimum wage job. |
Pouring milk into a bowl of oatmeal, peeling a banana or using a can opener on a can of tuna is time consuming? I'll tell you whats time consuming: Finding a parking space at McDonald's and then waiting in the line in front of the cash register.
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Urm. You...you...have no understanding of what we're talking about, do you? Individuals of certain races are far more likely PROPORTIONALLY to be overweight or obese. No one said anything about "everyone" within any race being obese. O_o Handedness is related to sex. Does that mean ALL males are left-handed? Don't play stupid. |
Asian men and women eat chicken sallad while white people stuff their face with burgers and drink soda, hence the difference in weight.
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At what cost? Sometimes people simply don't WANT to flagellate themselves into an ideal they didn't create to make other people happy. It isn't worth it to them. I was far happier and healthier when I was obese, myself, as opposed to what's required for me to be thin.
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If they took the stairs instead of the elevator, didn't drink soda every day and spent less than five hours watching TV every day, they'd never ecome like that in the first place.
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To me, it's irrelevant why my physiology is the way it is. The bottom line for me is that I'm not convinced of the inherent value of hours of exercise a day and eating practically nothing, which is what I've learned over a decade of trial and error is required for me to not become obese. At 215, I was more fertile than I am now at 115. |
Just because you aren't doesn't mean that other women aren't more fertile after reaching an ideal weight.
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Such is why pretending we're talking about "health" will always illicit a few laughs. Let's talk about ACTUAL MARKERS OF HEALTH, like blood pressure, cholesterol, glucose, and physical fitness, as opposed to how much space someone takes up.
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By all means, let's. I have a resting heart rate of 50, compared to 68 back when I was obese.
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Obesity kills people? I have to see this. Link. (To save you some time, obesity-related factors, IE, diseases CORRELATED with obesity due to both being the result of exogenous variables, is not evidence.) |
Copy this into Google translate:
http://www.helsenett.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15304&Itemid=336
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No, because people who stereotype millions of people only see what they want to see. |
The burden of proof is on you. Show me an obese person who've completed a marathon in less than five hours.
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Wait. We've figured out what the hell constitutes an "ideal" weight for people? When was this? |
22—32% body fat in women. This is the widely accepted range by dieticians and other professionals.
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You're strawmanning. The fact that the modern (and historical) understanding of weight includes far, far more than your absurdly-simplistic, black-and-white declarations doesn't constitute saying "genetics are singlehandedly responsible for...weight problems". |
Strawmaning? You just claimed that you'd get fat from eating more than 300 calories, thus you're implying you're genetics are responsible. |
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Kurgan
I'm always right
Joined: Apr 07, 2012
Age: 24
Posts: 1851
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| ValentineWiggin wrote: |
So you do know food prices globally are astronomical at the moment? What does it mean to be declared "responsible" for buying healthy food when many people have no money with which to buy food AT ALL? There are people here who regularly have to choose between food and medication/electricity. You live in some sort of bubble. |
The US has very low food prices still. You even claimed so in another post. You can choose between gourmet food and electricity or you can buy groceries and afford the electricity bill just fine. The Cash for the Clunkers program where people destroyed mint condition Cadillacs, BMW M5s, Mercedes AMGs and Porsche 928s to get a 4500 dollar rebate on a brand new car is a living proof of this.
Guess what? You pay one quarter of what a Dane pays per kilowatt, yet you don't earn less with a college degree. Even in a minimum wage job, chicken, eggs, tuna, milk and all that is cheap as fuark. |
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Mummy_of_Peanut
Countess de Noir
Joined: Feb 21, 2011
Age: 40
Posts: 3483
Location: Bonnie Scotland
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Any chance of keeping this thread on topic?
_________________
"We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all we need to make us really happy is something to be enthusiatic about." Charles Kingsley |
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Kurgan
I'm always right
Joined: Apr 07, 2012
Age: 24
Posts: 1851
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Mummy_of_Peanut wrote: | | Any chance of keeping this thread on topic? |
Some people like beating a dead horse; if science says that the earth is spherical, these people say it's flat beause they perceive it as flat. |
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NicoleG
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 26, 2011
Age: 36
Posts: 661
Location: Dallas-Fort Worth
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 1:01 am Post subject: |
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I was a bean pole growing up, but still very athletic. When I was 18-19, my mom threatened to put me into therapy if I lost any more weight, but I ate all the time. I was just always active. It wasn't until I was 24 that I started gaining weight after taking on a full-time desk job and eating Toosie Roles all day long. It's been a slow gain, and I'm now to the point that I'm getting back into being active and losing the weight again - although perusing this forum for hours at a time isn't doing me any favors.  |
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