MyFutureSelfnMe
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 27, 2010
Posts: 1288
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 Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| sliqua-jcooter wrote: | | MyFutureSelfnMe wrote: | I understand, but there are certain issues that are pervasive and have been consistent for years.
Foremost among them, the lack of response from the server when posting occasionally. It's happened the same way, about the same frequency, for years. Nobody has ever, as far as I can tell, attempted to fix the problem, or else it would have stopped happening at some point. |
That's not a problem - that's a symptom of a problem. The problem is, actually, "making an addition to a post takes too long to process" which, in turn, is really "the DB takes too long to commit writes to posts". There is no way to fix that without fundamentally altering how posts are stored in the DB, and how the application interacts with the DB.
This is *exactly* the sort of thing that I was talking about when I said that there are no open-source alternatives that work for a site this busy. |
I find it almost unbelievable that there is no popular open source bulletin board software that can manage posts from more than a couple thousand simultaneous users. A post shouldn't be a whole lot more than a SQL INSERT. Can you enlighten me at all as to what it's trying to do that is overloading the DB? I'm honestly curious. |
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Lord Badgerchops
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
Age: 23
Posts: 1433
Location: Southeastern United States
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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On the subject of supported users:
http://www.phpbb.com/community/
| Quote: | | Total posts 3751220 Total topics 630485 Total members 428775 |
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bcousins
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Joined: May 02, 2011
Posts: 620
Location: On a failed Tangara set at Blacktown
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| MyFutureSelfnMe wrote: | | sliqua-jcooter wrote: | | MyFutureSelfnMe wrote: | I understand, but there are certain issues that are pervasive and have been consistent for years.
Foremost among them, the lack of response from the server when posting occasionally. It's happened the same way, about the same frequency, for years. Nobody has ever, as far as I can tell, attempted to fix the problem, or else it would have stopped happening at some point. |
That's not a problem - that's a symptom of a problem. The problem is, actually, "making an addition to a post takes too long to process" which, in turn, is really "the DB takes too long to commit writes to posts". There is no way to fix that without fundamentally altering how posts are stored in the DB, and how the application interacts with the DB.
This is *exactly* the sort of thing that I was talking about when I said that there are no open-source alternatives that work for a site this busy. |
I find it almost unbelievable that there is no popular open source bulletin board software that can manage posts from more than a couple thousand simultaneous users. A post shouldn't be a whole lot more than a SQL INSERT. Can you enlighten me at all as to what it's trying to do that is overloading the DB? I'm honestly curious. |
Beginner web developer (But has some sort of background).
This site has 1500 active members, No? Well, SQL doesn't like that, and so many simultaneous connections sends it into overload. Think of it like your mind, When too many things are trying to be "inserted" at any given time, It dies, doesn't it?
Much the same principle.
SQL_INSERT is all well and good, But if you've pressed submit, Then Johnny down the street hits submit at the same time, Then your boss hits submit... It all adds up.
And HOW many are online at any given time?
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Lord Badgerchops
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
Age: 23
Posts: 1433
Location: Southeastern United States
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| bcousins wrote: |
And HOW many are online at any given time? |
| Quote: | | Most users ever online was 8680 |
Users means server requests, whether it is from a member, guest, or bot.
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sliqua-jcooter
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Joined: Jan 26, 2010
Posts: 814
Location: Burke, Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| sliqua-jcooter wrote: | | There aren't any open source forum solutions that scale to the level that's needed without extremely heavy customization/tweaking. |
Note what I said. I never said phpBB couldn't support that many users - I said it couldn't support that many users without spending hours tweaking the hell out of it to get it to do what you need. I can guarantee you the complexity of the setup for WP pales in comparison to the phpBB forum.
If you give me 4 db servers, 3 memcache servers, a couple app servers, and a fleet of load balancers I can run whatever you want - but WP doesn't have that kind of budget, and likely never will.
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aghogday
KATiE MiA
Joined: Nov 26, 2010
Posts: 4746
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Max000 wrote: | | aghogday wrote: | | I get way more internet explorer errors than WP errors. It's probably time to upgrade. But I look at it as an exercise of patience. |
One word for that, "Firefox". You certainly don't need to upgrade your computer. I have a five year old Mac Book, an eight year old Dell piece of crap laptop, and a nine year old Power Mac G5. And they all have way more power then I need to read and post to web forums. Any computer made in the last ten will be more then adequate for WP. That is if the server is not down. |
Thanks, that made a huge difference in speed. Looks like a great browser. The only issue I have with it is that the format of this website provides posting text that is washed out looking, with jagged edges. About the only adjustment I've found is that I can override the website font with Arial Black , which is overkill in the "bold" direction. All the other fonts I've tried have jagged edges, which I suppose is because they aren't in the Arial Black bold style.
Spell check is definitely a big improvement, as well.
If anyone has another suggestion that has encountered this issue with Fire Fox and this website formatting issue, with the posting font, I would appreciate the feedback. |
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Delphiki
Launchie
Joined: Apr 15, 2012
Age: 23
Posts: 1350
Location: My own version of reality
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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The font didn't look any different when I changed from safari to firefox
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MyFutureSelfnMe
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Joined: Feb 27, 2010
Posts: 1288
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| sliqua-jcooter wrote: | | sliqua-jcooter wrote: | | There aren't any open source forum solutions that scale to the level that's needed without extremely heavy customization/tweaking. |
Note what I said. I never said phpBB couldn't support that many users - I said it couldn't support that many users without spending hours tweaking the hell out of it to get it to do what you need. I can guarantee you the complexity of the setup for WP pales in comparison to the phpBB forum.
If you give me 4 db servers, 3 memcache servers, a couple app servers, and a fleet of load balancers I can run whatever you want - but WP doesn't have that kind of budget, and likely never will. |
What kind of tweaks to phpBB would be needed to support more than a small number of users?
DBs (e.g. MySQL) even running on a single server should have no problem handling 1500 simultaneous INSERTs, and I doubt WP ever sees that many simultaneous ones. I kind of doubt MySQL is the issue.
Browsing the phpBB forums, it seems user count is rarely an issue, forum count can become one.
Also, like I said, this has been an ongoing issue for years, and I'd love to hear more about what the problem is. I would go so far as to say I'm still skeptical of your reasons, unless WP's user count is running into the hundreds of thousands. |
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MyFutureSelfnMe
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sliqua-jcooter
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Joined: Jan 26, 2010
Posts: 814
Location: Burke, Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| MyFutureSelfnMe wrote: | | sliqua-jcooter wrote: | | sliqua-jcooter wrote: | | There aren't any open source forum solutions that scale to the level that's needed without extremely heavy customization/tweaking. |
Note what I said. I never said phpBB couldn't support that many users - I said it couldn't support that many users without spending hours tweaking the hell out of it to get it to do what you need. I can guarantee you the complexity of the setup for WP pales in comparison to the phpBB forum.
If you give me 4 db servers, 3 memcache servers, a couple app servers, and a fleet of load balancers I can run whatever you want - but WP doesn't have that kind of budget, and likely never will. |
What kind of tweaks to phpBB would be needed to support more than a small number of users?
DBs (e.g. MySQL) even running on a single server should have no problem handling 1500 simultaneous INSERTs, and I doubt WP ever sees that many simultaneous ones. I kind of doubt MySQL is the issue. |
Just as an example (and by far not the most egregious one) - each post in phpBB 3.0 spawns a variety of DB actions (and I may be missing some):
1 - it INSERTs a new entry into phpbb_posts
2 - by default, it adds the user to the thread watch list in phpbb_topics_watch (SELECT followed by another INSERT)
3 - it updates phpbb_topics_posted (UPDATE or INSERT)
4 - it updates phpbb_users with last post date and number of posts (UPDATE)
And it probably does a lot of other things that I'm not even aware of. Bottom line is it adds up really quickly.
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sliqua-jcooter
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Location: Burke, Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sorry - did you happen to catch the specs of that "one" DB server?
| Quote: | 2X Quad-core Intel Xeon 5500 Nehalem Series Processors - 8 MB cache (max)
64GB 1333MHz, fully buffered, DDR-3 RDIMM memory
4X SATA HDDs - OS
8X SATA 64GB Intel X25-e solid state drives (512GB total) - Data |
512GB of SSDs, and 64GB of RAM.
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MyFutureSelfnMe
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Posts: 1288
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| So? That's for 387k users, and those system specs are not that crazy. If you guys are that desperate, I'll buy you a server with those specs. |
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MyFutureSelfnMe
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Joined: Feb 27, 2010
Posts: 1288
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| sliqua-jcooter wrote: | | MyFutureSelfnMe wrote: | | sliqua-jcooter wrote: | | sliqua-jcooter wrote: | | There aren't any open source forum solutions that scale to the level that's needed without extremely heavy customization/tweaking. |
Note what I said. I never said phpBB couldn't support that many users - I said it couldn't support that many users without spending hours tweaking the hell out of it to get it to do what you need. I can guarantee you the complexity of the setup for WP pales in comparison to the phpBB forum.
If you give me 4 db servers, 3 memcache servers, a couple app servers, and a fleet of load balancers I can run whatever you want - but WP doesn't have that kind of budget, and likely never will. |
What kind of tweaks to phpBB would be needed to support more than a small number of users?
DBs (e.g. MySQL) even running on a single server should have no problem handling 1500 simultaneous INSERTs, and I doubt WP ever sees that many simultaneous ones. I kind of doubt MySQL is the issue. |
Just as an example (and by far not the most egregious one) - each post in phpBB 3.0 spawns a variety of DB actions (and I may be missing some):
1 - it INSERTs a new entry into phpbb_posts
2 - by default, it adds the user to the thread watch list in phpbb_topics_watch (SELECT followed by another INSERT)
3 - it updates phpbb_topics_posted (UPDATE or INSERT)
4 - it updates phpbb_users with last post date and number of posts (UPDATE)
And it probably does a lot of other things that I'm not even aware of. Bottom line is it adds up really quickly. |
Does it at least combine all of those actions in a single SQL request? If so it still doesn't sound that bad. |
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sliqua-jcooter
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Joined: Jan 26, 2010
Posts: 814
Location: Burke, Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| MyFutureSelfnMe wrote: | | So? That's for 387k users, and those system specs are not that crazy. If you guys are that desperate, I'll buy you a server with those specs. |
a) 387k users with 3751248 posts, vs ~68k users with 4665074 posts.
b) You completely missed the real point - that 1 request != 1 action.
c) buy two, we actually need a spare.
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sliqua-jcooter
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Joined: Jan 26, 2010
Posts: 814
Location: Burke, Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| MyFutureSelfnMe wrote: | | sliqua-jcooter wrote: | | MyFutureSelfnMe wrote: | | sliqua-jcooter wrote: | | sliqua-jcooter wrote: | | There aren't any open source forum solutions that scale to the level that's needed without extremely heavy customization/tweaking. |
Note what I said. I never said phpBB couldn't support that many users - I said it couldn't support that many users without spending hours tweaking the hell out of it to get it to do what you need. I can guarantee you the complexity of the setup for WP pales in comparison to the phpBB forum.
If you give me 4 db servers, 3 memcache servers, a couple app servers, and a fleet of load balancers I can run whatever you want - but WP doesn't have that kind of budget, and likely never will. |
What kind of tweaks to phpBB would be needed to support more than a small number of users?
DBs (e.g. MySQL) even running on a single server should have no problem handling 1500 simultaneous INSERTs, and I doubt WP ever sees that many simultaneous ones. I kind of doubt MySQL is the issue. |
Just as an example (and by far not the most egregious one) - each post in phpBB 3.0 spawns a variety of DB actions (and I may be missing some):
1 - it INSERTs a new entry into phpbb_posts
2 - by default, it adds the user to the thread watch list in phpbb_topics_watch (SELECT followed by another INSERT)
3 - it updates phpbb_topics_posted (UPDATE or INSERT)
4 - it updates phpbb_users with last post date and number of posts (UPDATE)
And it probably does a lot of other things that I'm not even aware of. Bottom line is it adds up really quickly. |
Does it at least combine all of those actions in a single SQL request? If so it still doesn't sound that bad. |
No.
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