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HerrGrimm
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 19, 2011
Posts: 963
Location: United States
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 Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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EDIT: You know what? I think I did enough work to show how two-faced AngelRho is on this subject. It just keeps giving him an excuse to paint himself as a victim. If he still believes in criminally prosecuting homosexuals after asking for forgiveness from visagrunt that is the most dishonest thing I ever read on PPR. So I'll let others take part now. I did my job I think. It takes away a trump card to avoid posting here anyway.
For the record, I still believe he condones killing them if they do not turn straight, and I don't believe his asking for forgiveness since it is apparent, at least to me, that he still thinks gays should be criminally prosecuted. You don't think the death penalty is wrong if you agree it is acceptable in some cases. I am not going to hide my views to look respectable to some people.
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"You just like to go around rebuking people with your ravenous wolf face and snarling commentary." - Ragtime |
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WilliamWDelaney
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 27, 2011
Posts: 1201
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| AngelRho wrote: | | OK, but what exactly do we mean by "homophobia"? I'm an arachnophobe, though I've learned how to handle some spiders without fear. |
Now you are playing semantics. It doesn't matter what the term is. We both know what it means.
| Quote: | | Homosexuals are fellow human beings, |
And so are niggers, but I usually prefer to call them "black people."
| Quote: | | Agreed. But for people who believe that homosexuality is wrong yet still have to confront unwanted attraction, a "substitute" would just mean turning from one thing that is wrong to something else that is wrong. |
And this is why it is very cruel to try to teach gay people that they are "sinful" for being how they are.
Does it not register with you what this kind of preaching does to gay men? "By their fruits, you will recognize them."
| Quote: | | OK, but all this really proves is that hardline conservative Christian evangelicals need to repent. And I really do like how you put it: "uneducated conservative Christian" |
Okay, so I am really not sure where we disagree there, if at all.
| Quote: | | And what you said really is the problem. Christians generally seem clueless as to how they should approach someone struggling with sexuality issues. I believe the more Christians are educated and the more Christ-like compassion they show to those who are having such a crisis, more people brought up in a Christian church but experiencing SSA would begin to choose their faith and heterosexuality/celibacy over the LGBT community. |
And I can tell you first-hand that one thing that actually does work is to develop a strong, stable relationship with a member of the same sex. Being in a solid relationship helps control your libido.
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/09.19/01-testosterone.html
"A man's testosterone levels drop significantly when he holds an infant. Even holding a baby doll can decrease levels of the male virility hormone.
Married men, whether fathers or not, have markedly lower testosterone levels than single males, according to one of the first studies of how the hormone changes when men marry and become fathers. Results of the study, done by a team of Harvard University anthropologists, increase our knowledge of human biology and may have implications for so-called "male menopause."
If two gay men wanted to kill their desire for gay sex, getting married to each other would be an extremely effective means of doing it. It's actually very healthy, and I think that more gay men ought to consider it. The thing is, this wouldn't take away being gay. It would just give them a fulfilled and secure relationship in which they would no longer have a biological need for physical gratification. It works, and I can vouch for it first-hand.
And nobody would even have to commit suicide. I am speaking from experience. My way just works. |
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AstroGeek
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 29, 2011
Age: 19
Posts: 1477
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| visagrunt wrote: | | For my part, I think the gay community has far greater sins to acknowledge than people like Dennis Jernigan. I think that we must acknowledge the consequences of the sexual licentiousness that prevailed in many communities in the 1970s--not only from an epidemeological perspective, but also in terms of the consequences for an aging generation of gay people. |
This is an interesting point. Although I hold such behaviours in utter contempt and disdain (I'm judgemental and unforgiving, I admit  ), I think that you need to look a bit deeper. Let us first ask why such behaviour happened. Well, it felt good, both people partaking in the sexual activity were men with the typical male high libido, and there was no risk of pregnancy. Yet there are other factors involved. After all, these issues do not in and of themselves explain promiscuity, at least not to the extent in which it happened. I think that there are far larger reasons. First there's the fact that having a traditional monogamous relationship (or any sort of relationship, for that matter) was much more difficult for gay men and women. It was not generally acceptable to be open about these things and cohabitation could result in violence directed towards you. As such, one-night stands were really the easiest option. The other reason is perhaps even more important. These men were being told that their attraction was morally wrong; society's general moral system was condemning them. Naturally, they rejected this. Unfortunately, the baby was thrown out with the bathwater, and institutions like monogamy were rejected as well.
I'm inclined to believe that had, in the 1920s say, a magical fairy (pun intended) come and waived a magic wand making everyone believe that homosexuality was acceptable, natural, and that things like same-sex marriage should be legalized things would have turned out very differently. I suspect that then gay people would have practiced heterosexual norms such as monogamy. Or that they would have been by the 1970s anyway (well, except for the fact that the 70s was the 70s). I believe that to a large degree it was intolerance that caused these sorts of behaviours in the first place. I think that this is gradually starting to happen today, especially now that same-sex marriage is gradually being legalized. I was twelve, fiver years away from realizing that I was gay, when it was legalized nation-wide in Canada. It was legalized a year or two before that in my province. So when I came to terms with my homosexuality it was natural to assume that I'd still get married and live an otherwise traditional lifestyle. Admittedly, I am a bit of an odd case, but I think such ideas are becoming increasingly common among gay youth. The people who talk of the "gay lifestyle" (not what you or I mean when we say it, but the Queer as Folk type version) as a reason why same-sex marriage is a bad idea seem to miss the fact that if anything same-sex marriage will tend to reduce such behaviour.
Of course, you actually lived through these times and were coming to terms with your own homosexuality shortly thereafter. All I have to go on is a little bit of reading and some sociological theory. So you could easily be seeing things that I'm not.
Edit: And as usual, I see that I've written far too much. |
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AngelRho
Synclavier owner/operator
Joined: Jan 05, 2008
Posts: 3726
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | Now you are playing semantics. It doesn't matter what the term is. We both know what it means. |
I'm really not, though. I'm just trying to make sure we agree on terms. Most evangelicals that I know are not afraid of gays nor do they hate them. They'd be offended by that label and honestly deny it.
Also worthy of consideration is exactly what evangelicals we're referring to. Fire-and-brimstone, hell-and-damnation style is increasingly out of favor and being replaced by a "teaching" style or other style that focuses on keeping the gospel message relevant. I'm generally not in favor of "relevance" for the sake of filling pews (or auditorium seats, whatever), and I'm vehemently against the prosperity heresy (which is just pagan religion with "Christianity" stamped on it to make it look good). The younger Southern Baptist pastors I've gotten to know won't even touch the subject of homosexuality. The newer evangelical congregations tend to be a lot more inviting than the older ones.
So the issue is not with evangelicals as a whole. It's the older style that still maintains that in-your-face kind of approach. Opposing lifestyle decisions doesn't kill people. It's forgetting that compassion and understanding take precedence over condemnation.
| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | And so are niggers, but I usually prefer to call them "black people." |
Exactly what I'm talking about in regards to semantics... I'd never be allowed to get away with using racial slurs.
| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | And this is why it is very cruel to try to teach gay people that they are "sinful" for being how they are. |
That's the beauty of it...western society affords most people the freedom to believe what they want and peaceably express their opinions without fear of persecution. If you don't want to live a Biblically consistent lifestyle, no one is going to force you to. But if you DO and part of that means accepting that something with which you struggle is immoral, then you would hope that your fellow believers would help you deal with those shortcomings. Christians accept that we are ALL born sinners. We are to live lives of repentance, but no amount of repentance makes us perfectly acceptable. Only Jesus can do that. We're discussing homosexuality here, but we should also accept that there are many other forms that sin might take. No one is in greater or lesser need of repentance than anyone else.
If someone WANTS to follow Christ, it is also cruel to let that person persist in sinful behavior because of how disruptive sin is to the relationship between a person and God.
I'd say it's cruel to compel someone who wants to live a Biblical lifestyle to accept homosexuality if they don't want to.
| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | Does it not register with you what this kind of preaching does to gay men? "By their fruits, you will recognize them." |
Sure...but as I mentioned this is becoming less and less the case. I think that the day is coming that the only time the topic will come up is if Christians are directly challenged by it.
The other time things like that will come up is when Christians are faced with knowingly supporting causes contrary to their faith. I'd be less inclined to shop at Sears, for instance, if I caught wind that they were selling pornography (hey, it's happened before).
| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | Okay, so I am really not sure where we disagree there, if at all. |
Common ground is good.
| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | And I can tell you first-hand that one thing that actually does work is to develop a strong, stable relationship with a member of the same sex. Being in a solid relationship helps control your libido. |
The one POSITIVE thing about gay marriage. Now gays can NOT have sex just like heteros!
| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | If two gay men wanted to kill their desire for gay sex, getting married to each other would be an extremely effective means of doing it. It's actually very healthy, and I think that more gay men ought to consider it. The thing is, this wouldn't take away being gay. It would just give them a fulfilled and secure relationship in which they would no longer have a biological need for physical gratification. It works, and I can vouch for it first-hand. |
OK, but here we're meandering into a whole different topic, and I don't care to get into whether gay marriage is right or not, at least not in this thread.
| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | And nobody would even have to commit suicide. I am speaking from experience. My way just works. |
Exodus International "just works" for some people, also. And they don't have to commit suicide, either.
...
Looks to me like we're just repeating ourselves here and we've both made our points. The last word is all yours if you want it. I've tried not to be confrontational about it and respect your views, even if we disagree; it appears to me that as long as we understood each other here you've been mostly civil. I appreciate that, and hope that any future exchanges we have continue to be so. |
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AngelRho
Synclavier owner/operator
Joined: Jan 05, 2008
Posts: 3726
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| AstroGeek wrote: | | Edit: And as usual, I see that I've written far too much. |
Don't feel bad.  |
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pat_can
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Apr 14, 2012
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Christians accept that we are ALL born sinners. We are to live lives of repentance, but no amount of repentance makes us perfectly acceptable. Only Jesus can do that. We're discussing homosexuality here, but we should also accept that there are many other forms that sin might take. No one is in greater or lesser need of repentance than anyone else. |
I was saved by Christ not because I reject the gay lifestyle but because I accepted Jesus has my Savior and Lord. It's true that I choose to get out of homosexuality and I found freedom.
Evangelicals christians help me with my struggle with same sex attraction and now they helping me with my new SA diagnostic. A lost some friend, liberal christian. They call themself "progressive" but they reject me because I choose to leave out from a sinful life. They aren't "progressive" at all if you don't beleive the same thing.
I have nothing with gay people but I can help those with "unwanted" same attaction. Therapy are very effective. |
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Rainy
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 24, 2012
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'd say it's cruel to compel someone who wants to live a Biblical lifestyle to accept homosexuality if they don't want to. |
Yes, people do have the freedom to have stupid beliefs. |
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AstroGeek
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 29, 2011
Age: 19
Posts: 1477
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| AngelRho wrote: | | If someone WANTS to follow Christ, it is also cruel to let that person persist in sinful behavior because of how disruptive sin is to the relationship between a person and God. |
You are not winning any allies by implying that homosexuality is sinful. Also there are plenty of people who are gay and religious. The obviously see that as posing no problem in their relationship with god.
| AngelRho wrote: | | I'd say it's cruel to compel someone who wants to live a Biblical lifestyle to accept homosexuality if they don't want to. |
And this is not what we're arguing (or at least not what I'm arguing). I'm arguing that people should not be brought up to believe that homosexuality is evil/wrong/sinful/illegitimate in the first place. Full stop. |
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AngelRho
Synclavier owner/operator
Joined: Jan 05, 2008
Posts: 3726
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| pat_can wrote: | | Quote: | | Christians accept that we are ALL born sinners. We are to live lives of repentance, but no amount of repentance makes us perfectly acceptable. Only Jesus can do that. We're discussing homosexuality here, but we should also accept that there are many other forms that sin might take. No one is in greater or lesser need of repentance than anyone else. |
I was saved by Christ not because I reject the gay lifestyle but because I accepted Jesus has my Savior and Lord. |
This is very important to point out. You are saved not through what you've done but through what God has done.
| pat_can wrote: | | It's true that I choose to get out of homosexuality and I found freedom. |
You've had your own struggles to deal with just like I have.
But this statement is crucial. You've had relevant experience that I haven't. And that is why I think it's important that I leave the discussion for the time being at least. It's easy to talk the talk when I'm not directly affected by the problem myself. This discussion needs someone who can speak about it firsthand.
| pat_can wrote: | Evangelicals christians help me with my struggle with same sex attraction and now they helping me with my new SA diagnostic. A lost some friend, liberal christian. They call themself "progressive" but they reject me because I choose to leave out from a sinful life. They aren't "progressive" at all if you don't beleive the same thing.
I have nothing with gay people but I can help those with "unwanted" same attaction. Therapy are very effective. |
Good to know there's someone out there who doesn't see us as all evil. Welcome to WP! |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29324
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| pat_can wrote: | I was saved by Christ not because I reject the gay lifestyle but because I accepted Jesus has my Savior and Lord. It's true that I choose to get out of homosexuality and I found freedom.
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Are we both dwelling in the 21 st century? Jesus was killed by the Romans 2000 years ago. You did it yourself.
ruveyn |
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Lord_Gareth
Velociraptor
Joined: Feb 21, 2012
Posts: 440
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| AstroGeek wrote: | | AngelRho wrote: | | If someone WANTS to follow Christ, it is also cruel to let that person persist in sinful behavior because of how disruptive sin is to the relationship between a person and God. |
You are not winning any allies by implying that homosexuality is sinful. Also there are plenty of people who are gay and religious. The obviously see that as posing no problem in their relationship with god. |
And, you know, here's the thing I don't get: the prohibition against (male) homosexuality appears in the same OT book that covers eating shellfish (going to hell), the treatment of your slaves, and numerous other practices that have essentially been thrown out the window whole-cloth by the majority of Christians in the world. What's so special about me macking on another gentleman (as I plan to one of these days so I can settle out my bi-curiosity once and for freaking all) that makes it inherently worse than, oh I dunno, wearing clothes that contain more than one kind of fiber?
_________________
Et in Arcadia ego. - "Even in Arcadia, there am I." |
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WilliamWDelaney
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 27, 2011
Posts: 1201
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| AngelRho wrote: | | The one POSITIVE thing about gay marriage. Now gays can NOT have sex just like heteros! |
There are a number of positive things about it. It engenders a peace-of-mind that you can't really get in any other way. I've also been a lot more productive than I've ever been before. I find that I actually like working and sweating all day. I never felt much that way before, but being tied to a guy permanently seems to have pumped jet fuel into my sense of industry. I mean, I never would have thought that I would wake up Sunday morning and think, "I think I'll take a shovel and dig a place to lay down some decorative pebbles we have," and spend three hours cutting through roots and shoveling dirt and then pounding the earth with a landscape timber, and after that was done double the size of my already burgeoning vegetable and herb garden. We might have more produce here than we can use, but that's okay. We have a nice lady next-door we help out financially sometimes (and we're trying to talk her daughter into letting me give her some piano/keyboard lessons), and she cooked us up some grouper and brought it over just a few days ago. I figure it might be possible to work out some kind of barter arrangement there, exchanging whole food for cooked food.
My experience is not unique: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/145924?uid=3739776&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=56215105903
But, anyway, marriage, whether it's gay or straight, is a blessing. It's really heaven itself.
| Quote: | | OK, but here we're meandering into a whole different topic, and I don't care to get into whether gay marriage is right or not, at least not in this thread. |
I think it's very relevant to our present discussion. You are telling us, here, that you think that gay men ought to practice celibacy. I am telling you that it is very well possible if they were to get married...to other men. If you are in an established and healthful marriage, you can redirect a lot of your sexual energy into industry, which you can't really do as easily otherwise. Since my partner and I really settled down, I've gone from having sex six times a day to only two. However, in my previous relationship, that effect was even more dramatic: it got down to monthly! Never missed it! If you think that it is gay sex that is a sin, you can eliminate that from the equation entirely without depriving a single gay person, in any way, shape or form. This is the win-win scenario.
| Quote: | | WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | And nobody would even have to commit suicide. I am speaking from experience. My way just works. |
Exodus International "just works" for some people, also. And they don't have to commit suicide, either. |
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/01/09/40435
"As further evidence of a possible shift of Exodus International’s focus, Warren Throckmorton pointed the removal of books on reparative therapy from Exodus’s bookstore. When Throckmorton asked Exodus International president Alan Chambers for comment, he responded:
'The reason I removed RT books from Exodus Books is because I don’t agree with using this research as a means to say that “this” is how homosexuality always develops, “this” is the primary means in which to deal with it and this is “the” outcome you can expect. Too, Exodus, as a whole, is not a scientific or psychological organization…we are a discipleship ministry and that is where I think our strength is and energy should be focused.'
This comes two weeks after Chambers told an audience of gay Christians that “the majority of people that I have met, and I would say the majority meaning 99.9% of them, have not experienced a change in their orientation or have gotten to a place where they could say that they could never be tempted or are not tempted in some way or experience some level of same-sex attraction.”"
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/news/splc-warns-of-junk-science-promoted-at-ex-gay-conference
“This therapy devastates the lives of many who have endured it and can result in lasting psychological harm,” said SPLC attorney Sam Wolfe, who joined representatives of Truth Wins Out and other advocacy groups at a news conference in Atlanta . “It inaccurately assumes that LGBT people are broken and fraudulently claims to fix who they are. We want LGBT people and their allies to be aware of the disastrous effects this therapy can cause and encourage survivors to speak out against it.”
| Quote: | | Looks to me like we're just repeating ourselves here and we've both made our points. The last word is all yours if you want it. I've tried not to be confrontational about it and respect your views, even if we disagree; it appears to me that as long as we understood each other here you've been mostly civil. I appreciate that, and hope that any future exchanges we have continue to be so. |
Well, I hope that others understand why I chose not to focus on hard evidence in this discussion and favored personal anecdotes over scientific argument. |
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AngelRho
Synclavier owner/operator
Joined: Jan 05, 2008
Posts: 3726
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Lord_Gareth wrote: | | AstroGeek wrote: | | AngelRho wrote: | | If someone WANTS to follow Christ, it is also cruel to let that person persist in sinful behavior because of how disruptive sin is to the relationship between a person and God. |
You are not winning any allies by implying that homosexuality is sinful. Also there are plenty of people who are gay and religious. The obviously see that as posing no problem in their relationship with god. |
And, you know, here's the thing I don't get: the prohibition against (male) homosexuality appears in the same OT book that covers eating shellfish (going to hell), the treatment of your slaves, and numerous other practices that have essentially been thrown out the window whole-cloth by the majority of Christians in the world. What's so special about me macking on another gentleman (as I plan to one of these days so I can settle out my bi-curiosity once and for freaking all) that makes it inherently worse than, oh I dunno, wearing clothes that contain more than one kind of fiber? |
Well, all that is a whole different discussion. Homosexuality is wrong for two reasons from the Christian perspective. First of all, God created us male and female. Oh, and btw...the Bible does not say being attracted to something evil or being tempted by something evil is a sin. SSA is not a sin. It is believing that acting on it is acceptable behavior and actually engaging in it that is harmful. If someone gives up on the natural order of male-female relationships for cohabiting, pleasure, procreation, etc., then he's expressing dissatisfaction with God's created order. The second reason is that in the ancient world, homosexuality was a feature of paganism and continues to represent a worship of false gods. No matter how you try to get around it, it is never appropriate behavior for a Christian believer. Paul's writings indicate same in the NT, so it's not JUST an OT thing.
Now, as to the other things you mentioned:
Eating shellfish makes Jews ritually unclean, not to mention dietary laws are otherwise observed ONLY to make a distinction between Jews and Gentiles. It sets them apart from other people. And if a non-Jew or non-Israelite were to ask a Hebrew why he doesn't eat shellfish, it opens a discussion about Yahweh worship. The intended effect is for the Hebrews to be the "light of the world" and invite the rest of the world to join them in seeking a relationship with Yahweh. In reality, Israel and Judah allowed themselves to be influenced too much by pagan civilizations, but the point of dietary laws is one of distinction, not "do this or you're going to hell." Jesus abolished dietary laws for his followers to pave the way for the Great Commission, and it still took some time before Jewish Christians figured out what they were supposed to do.
Treatment of slaves: It's the wickedness of the human heart that causes people to trade each other like property, not the will of God. Laws concerning slaves exist partly to make an evil institution livable, not to promote it. Both Jews and Christians value freedom, and where ever we've been prevalent in the world, slavery has been eliminated as an institution and driven underground.
Mixing fibers: These laws are actually still in effect for most of western society. There is some evidence in the OT that mixtures are reserved strictly for holy items such as those used in the Tent of Meeting or Temple worship. But, also, the OT places high importance on honest weights and measures. So probably what is intended by those laws is that people trading cloth are to accurately describe what it is they are selling. In other words, don't mix a superior product with an inferior product and try to sell it at a more expensive price. If you were to, say, sell material that is 50% silk and 50% cotton, you should tell someone that and lower the price rather than lie about it and say that it's 100% silk. And we haven't really abandoned this law in modern times, either. Clothing comes with labels describing what it is--not just for the sake of care and cleaning, but to let the customer know what he's buying and decide whether the listed price is a fair one. We have the right to litigation if we find out we're buying a counterfeit product. |
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Rainy
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 24, 2012
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| And of course you try to justify slavery in the Bible just like any good fundamentalist would. At least fundamentalism is dying out. |
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Lord_Gareth
Velociraptor
Joined: Feb 21, 2012
Posts: 440
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| AngelRho wrote: | | Lord_Gareth wrote: | | AstroGeek wrote: | | AngelRho wrote: | | If someone WANTS to follow Christ, it is also cruel to let that person persist in sinful behavior because of how disruptive sin is to the relationship between a person and God. |
You are not winning any allies by implying that homosexuality is sinful. Also there are plenty of people who are gay and religious. The obviously see that as posing no problem in their relationship with god. |
And, you know, here's the thing I don't get: the prohibition against (male) homosexuality appears in the same OT book that covers eating shellfish (going to hell), the treatment of your slaves, and numerous other practices that have essentially been thrown out the window whole-cloth by the majority of Christians in the world. What's so special about me macking on another gentleman (as I plan to one of these days so I can settle out my bi-curiosity once and for freaking all) that makes it inherently worse than, oh I dunno, wearing clothes that contain more than one kind of fiber? |
Well, all that is a whole different discussion. Homosexuality is wrong for two reasons from the Christian perspective. First of all, God created us male and female. Oh, and btw...the Bible does not say being attracted to something evil or being tempted by something evil is a sin. SSA is not a sin. It is believing that acting on it is acceptable behavior and actually engaging in it that is harmful. If someone gives up on the natural order of male-female relationships for cohabiting, pleasure, procreation, etc., then he's expressing dissatisfaction with God's created order. The second reason is that in the ancient world, homosexuality was a feature of paganism and continues to represent a worship of false gods. No matter how you try to get around it, it is never appropriate behavior for a Christian believer. Paul's writings indicate same in the NT, so it's not JUST an OT thing. |
Aside from Paul being perhaps the biggest buzzkill in the NT (you know you're depressing when the dude that got nailed to a stick is more fun than you), I have only this to say: quotes please.
| Quote: | Now, as to the other things you mentioned:
Eating shellfish makes Jews ritually unclean, not to mention dietary laws are otherwise observed ONLY to make a distinction between Jews and Gentiles. It sets them apart from other people. And if a non-Jew or non-Israelite were to ask a Hebrew why he doesn't eat shellfish, it opens a discussion about Yahweh worship. The intended effect is for the Hebrews to be the "light of the world" and invite the rest of the world to join them in seeking a relationship with Yahweh. In reality, Israel and Judah allowed themselves to be influenced too much by pagan civilizations, but the point of dietary laws is one of distinction, not "do this or you're going to hell." Jesus abolished dietary laws for his followers to pave the way for the Great Commission, and it still took some time before Jewish Christians figured out what they were supposed to do.
Treatment of slaves: It's the wickedness of the human heart that causes people to trade each other like property, not the will of God. Laws concerning slaves exist partly to make an evil institution livable, not to promote it. Both Jews and Christians value freedom, and where ever we've been prevalent in the world, slavery has been eliminated as an institution and driven underground. |
Also quotes on this reasoning please. I'd love to hear about how you arrived to these theological conclusions based on your holy book.
| Quote: | | Mixing fibers: These laws are actually still in effect for most of western society. There is some evidence in the OT that mixtures are reserved strictly for holy items such as those used in the Tent of Meeting or Temple worship. But, also, the OT places high importance on honest weights and measures. So probably what is intended by those laws is that people trading cloth are to accurately describe what it is they are selling. In other words, don't mix a superior product with an inferior product and try to sell it at a more expensive price. If you were to, say, sell material that is 50% silk and 50% cotton, you should tell someone that and lower the price rather than lie about it and say that it's 100% silk. And we haven't really abandoned this law in modern times, either. Clothing comes with labels describing what it is--not just for the sake of care and cleaning, but to let the customer know what he's buying and decide whether the listed price is a fair one. We have the right to litigation if we find out we're buying a counterfeit product. |
This one I'll give you, with this addition: what cloth it's made out of also informs the consumer of what kind of safety measures must be taken with aforementioned article of clothing, as some are more flammable or likely to stain than others.
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Et in Arcadia ego. - "Even in Arcadia, there am I." |
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