Religious Apes with Technology. - Computers, Math, Science, and Technology

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Religious Apes with Technology.

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Oodain
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:48 am Post subject:

Species5618 wrote:

Rax wrote:

and I suppose there are no religious smart people out there? In my opinion, Atheism is equally as unlikely as religion, only if you're right and we all rot, it doesn't matter because we're all screwed and we become nothing but dirt. But if We're right and religion is correct. We win and you're screwed/reincarnated/whatever.

Atheism is a lose/draw scenario
Religion is a win/draw scenario.

There's a first. I've never seen someone use game theory to argue for being religious. Nevertheless, if I "believe" simply because it improves the possible outcome for me when I die, what kind of "faith" would that be?

I'll stick with what I can see, hear, feel or measure.

especially in light of how many people have suffered because of that "win/draw" scenario,(how anyone would use that argument is beyond me)
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LookTwice
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:49 am Post subject:

Species5618 wrote:

There's a first. I've never seen someone use game theory to argue for being religious.

Pascal's Wager.

LookTwice
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Joined: Oct 31, 2011
Posts: 229

Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Religious Apes with Technology.

cyberscan wrote:

There are stupid Jews, Muslims, Christians, Evolutionists, etc. There are also very smart Jews, Muslims, Christians, Evolutionists, etc. You see, bigotry occurs in people of all faiths including Evolutionists. [...]
To answer your question, I think it is just you.

I agree with this post.

Interesting book for further reading: "The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion" by Jonathan Haidt.

LookTwice
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Joined: Oct 31, 2011
Posts: 229

Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:04 am Post subject:

Species5618 wrote:

I'll stick with what I can see, hear, feel or measure.

How do you deal with the fundamental questions posed by Quantum Mechanics? (I suppose you understand QM, since it touches on the foundations of everything, including your smartphone.)

edgewaters
hibernating
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:47 pm Post subject:

LookTwice wrote:

Species5618 wrote:

There's a first. I've never seen someone use game theory to argue for being religious.

Pascal's Wager.

It's not game theory.

Besides, it uses premises not in evidence. Like the idea that there's a God who wants to be worshipped. Perhaps he would despise sycophants, and prefer those who reserved judgement. One could not know.

LookTwice
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:20 pm Post subject:

edgewaters wrote:

It's not game theory.

I was referring to the original argument

Rax wrote:

Atheism is a lose/draw scenario
Religion is a win/draw scenario.

which is at least roughly equivalent with Pascal's Wager. I wasn't the one who called it "game theory", a topic I'm not an expert in, although it seems to me that this kind of reasoning is exactly what would fall under the category of "strategic decision making", so I'm curious why you think think this isn't game theory.

edgewaters wrote:

Besides, it uses premises not in evidence. Like the idea that there's a God who wants to be worshipped. Perhaps he would despise sycophants, and prefer those who reserved judgement. One could not know.

It's an assumption. Is making assumptions illegal in game theory?

CornerPuzzlePieces
Toucan
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Religious Apes with Technology.

cyberscan wrote:

The so called religious apes, as you call them, will likely get along fine. The Amish know how to do nicely without the modern technology you think should be unavailable to those who happen to believe in the Bible. You say the Bible forbids the use of tools or technology. Can you give a specific book, chapter and verse where this prohibition is found?

As far as Bible believers being dumb apes, you might want to reconsider your position. Sir Isaac Newton, who happened to be a physicist and the father of calculus, was a very devout believer in the Bible. Albert Einstein also believed in a Creator and quoted from scripture. I'm also a Bible Believer and am a former believer in the Evolutionist faith. I am also a computer programmer, a graduate of the Navy's Nuclear Field "A" School, and have a degree in Electronic Engineering. I love researching and learning how things work. By the way, it was my education in nuclear physics which led me to have serious doubts about the accuracy of radio dating as far as millions of years go.

You say that it should be unacceptable to spread "false truths" around. Tell me then, who should be the one to determine what is true and what is not? I can name some societies where it is or was against the law to spread "false truths". These include Communist China, North Korea, Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, Eastern Europe under Communism, Europe under the Inquisition, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, and many others. Each of these societies (while in existence) are or were very religious and sought to impose "the truth" on others.

There are stupid Jews, Muslims, Christians, Evolutionists, etc. There are also very smart Jews, Muslims, Christians, Evolutionists, etc. You see, bigotry occurs in people of all faiths including Evolutionists. I have atheist friends, and I get along with them fine. They don't believe I'm stupid because of what I believe, and I don't believe they are stupid because of what they believe. I also know of many scientists who believe that Evolution is false. I personally know of one molecular biologist who happens to be a Jehovah's Witness. I know of other scientists who believe that Evolution is true. Many like you claim to want diversity, and yet hate or want to suppress those whose beliefs are different than your own. I was going to ignore this thread, but I decided that it is appropriate to respond and call out prejudice when I see it.
To answer your question, I think it is just you.

I've heard claims about Newton and Einstein, but most evidence I can tell says they didn't:
""
Einstein also said:
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever. This is a somewhat new kind of religion. I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism. The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive."
""

Since the bible was written by people (yes I said it) at a time when we did NOT have any of these modern things, I doubt there is an exact quote with the words "No iphones allowed". However the general structure of the text endorses oppression and ignorance to the way things really work.

Take this one for example:

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." (Genesis 1:16-17)

We know now that there is no second light source, it is the light reflecting off of the moon. God is lying to you. If anything, god is taking advantage of your lack of knowledge to gain power over you.

If a teacher did this in schools, they would be jailed, no?

As far as prejudice goes, perhaps you have a point. I realize that religions can have followers that are also scientists, or smart people

However I never said anything about neurodiversity. An autistic can believe as much as anyone else. It's a matter of which stance on the matter benefits society more.. Regardless of the fact that most people expect some kind of reward for believing in the :right: thing.

If god exists, he is testing us. And those who reject him pass the test. Eve was fully within her rights as a free willed being to disobey the controlling god figure. After all he made her so. I applaud the original sin you could say. There is nothing I find wrong with it. Smile

People push this stuff onto their kids and their kids have no choice but to accept it. I want the content in the bible to be restricted, by age, to those who are competent enough to make their own decisions. JUST LIKE ALCOHOL. And we all know how stingy religious followers are with alcohol, so why not doctrine as well?

If you can wait until drinking age to be shown the bible and STILL believe it, go right ahead. I'm not proposing a full out ban on anything of the thought, just how the beliefs are formed. At an age where they can make the choice for themselves.

Indoctrination at a young age, that is the crime here.

ruveyn
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Religious Apes with Technology.

CornerPuzzlePieces wrote:

Indoctrination at a young age, that is the crime here.

Teaching youngster conventional morality is indoctrination. What alternative would you propose. That we do not teach youngsters that some things are right and some things are wrong?

ruveyn

CornerPuzzlePieces
Toucan
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Religious Apes with Technology.

ruveyn wrote:

CornerPuzzlePieces wrote:

Indoctrination at a young age, that is the crime here.

Teaching youngster conventional morality is indoctrination. What alternative would you propose. That we do not teach youngsters that some things are right and some things are wrong?

ruveyn

I should stop giving easy one liners to quote!! Me and my need for narrative closure.. Razz

Our society has a morality that changes over time, it's a code upheld by people and enforced by amendable laws.

We teach them things that let them fit in with society, not always the best of course but it's nothing crazy- don't kill people, assist your parents, do your work. These values stem from the bible, yes? Some things like "grow up get job have kids repeat" are questionable as part of today's culture, but no one is going to force someone to do it. Murder however we do enforce, as it does not just affect the person murdering.. it kills an innocent who, most likely did not ask to be killed.

However teaching, or rather fixating children on the bible as a code is different. It contains allegories and fairy tales and loose definitions. It is not clear. It can be twisted.

Not to mention the subject matter- again I stress it should be age restricted in the same manner as movies are. Blood and gore, death, sexuality. Protect children from this kind of nonsense.

Another problem is, it does not change. It has and always will remain the same. Women are still lesser beings, homosexuals are still to be put to death. Such is not a moral code we place value on, society needs to be able to move.

The church cannot move from its strict rules. And thus it will be left behind someday- as we roll along.

cyberscan
Naughty Autie
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: Religious Apes with Technology.

CornerPuzzlePieces wrote:

Take this one for example:

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." (Genesis 1:16-17)

We know now that there is no second light source, it is the light reflecting off of the moon. God is lying to you. If anything, god is taking advantage of your lack of knowledge to gain power over you.

Both are still lights one is a direct source, and the other is an indirect (reflected) source.
You have very little understanding of language. Have you ever heard of the term the sun is rising (coming up) or the sun is setting (going down)? We all know that the earth is rotating, and yet most people including scientists use these terms. These things are described as a matter of perspective.

CornerPuzzlePieces wrote:

If a teacher did this in schools, they would be jailed, no?

As far as prejudice goes, perhaps you have a point. I realize that religions can have followers that are also scientists, or smart people

You want to go there, fine. We'll go there. Teachers get away with all kinds of things. Teachers and many textbooks still use the Haeckel's embryo chart which is a known fake, and yet nothing happens to them. Many of the "prehumans" in textbooks are not drawn based on whole fossils, but rather from the figment of the artists imagination.

CornerPuzzlePieces wrote:

However I never said anything about neurodiversity. An autistic can believe as much as anyone else. It's a matter of which stance on the matter benefits society more.. Regardless of the fact that most people expect some kind of reward for believing in the :right: thing.

Actually, you did. However, look at your term, religiotard. As far as expecting a reward for believing the right thing, I already have it. I have a much better life HERE AND NOW than I did when I was a follower of Evolutionism. Following Evolutionism has not made a single advance in society or has benefited society. Biology, chemistry, physics, engineering sciences have as well as some sects of Christianity have. People can study biology and use knowledge gained from it to contribute to society and make discoveries without believing that all life has evolved from a primeval organism.

CornerPuzzlePieces wrote:

If god exists, he is testing us. And those who reject him pass the test. Eve was fully within her rights as a free willed being to disobey the controlling god figure. After all he made her so. I applaud the original sin you could say. There is nothing I find wrong with it. Smile

He gave people free will for them to choose their path. Yes, we are free to choose to reject or keep His teachings. I prefer to keep his teachings. I was once an Evolutionist, and now I am a Bible believer. It wasn't until I was in my second 22 years of my life, that I began to believe. Comparing the two halves of my life, I can say that I am much better off as a believer is scripture rather than a believer in Evolutionism.

As far as obeying scripture, we would be better off if people adhered to the teachings. If everybody obeyed just one or two or the commands - "Don't steal" and "Don't murder." We wouldn't need locks on our doors, and we would be over taxed and over burdened by government. The problem is that each person decides what is right and wrong, and because of it we have so many disagreements, war, strife, repression, etc. My car broke down in a predominately Muslim area. People there saw me working on the car, and several came out to see if they could help, or to offer me a drink, and to offer me their phones to call someone. Years before, my car broke down is a nice looking neighborhood in a predominately non religious area. People passed by and not one stopped. I sat there until the tow truck finally arrived.

CornerPuzzlePieces wrote:

Your statement about how religious people react to alcohol is untrue for many religious people. I know many religious families where children are and were allowed to consume alcohol. I know personally, because I have seen it with my own eyes. Most of these children are very successful adults.

CornerPuzzlePieces wrote:

If you can wait until drinking age to be shown the bible and STILL believe it, go right ahead. I'm not proposing a full out ban on anything of the thought, just how the beliefs are formed. At an age where they can make the choice for themselves.

Indoctrination at a young age, that is the crime here.

This is and was the policy in most Communist countries. You should read your history. The religion of Evolutionism is pounded into the heads of school children every grade in the name of science, and the children are forced to go along with it. In fact, if they don't at least pretend that they agree with it, they will get a poor grade. This is the essence of indoctrination. I have learned so many things in school that I found later to be untrue. Schools should not be in the business of teaching the religion of Evolutionism and disguising it as science.

This indoctrination starts at a young age and is the real crime. The first Amendment of the U.S. Constitution prohibits the establishment of a government sanctioned religion such as a denomination of Christianity or the religion of Evolutionism. However, the government is not allowed to forbid the free exercise of religion either.
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Last edited by cyberscan on Wed May 30, 2012 4:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

Blownmind
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Religious Apes with Technology.

CornerPuzzlePieces wrote:

It could be interpreted in many ways;
1. God works in mysterious ways, therefore he made a giant mirror to reflect the suns light to give the night some light. If he created that mirror, he did create the lesser light to rule the night.
2. Those who wrote/rewrote the original quote misquoted God.
3. The correct meaning was lost in translation over time.
4. A Robin Hood of atheists edited the bible many years ago to make it seem like God is lying.
5. The lesser light that rule the night might be fireflies, or some other glowing creature.

..I could go on, but I think my point is made.

Deities are only ascended beings who gain power based on their believers anyway, aren't they? Very Happy

I will be one some day. Believe you me...
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Last edited by Blownmind on Wed May 30, 2012 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

edgewaters
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:54 pm Post subject:

LookTwice wrote:

It's an assumption. Is making assumptions illegal in game theory?

No but an argument fails if it uses a premise that can't be proven and is not necessarily true, and the premise is challenged.

LookTwice
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:15 pm Post subject:

edgewaters wrote:

LookTwice wrote:

It's an assumption. Is making assumptions illegal in game theory?

No but an argument fails if it uses a premise that can't be proven and is not necessarily true, and the premise is challenged.

As far as I can see, noone said it was supposed to be a premise. It was an implicit assumption, maybe one that can be questioned.
The whole point of the argument was making an educated bet, not a logical conclusion.

CornerPuzzlePieces
Toucan
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: Religious Apes with Technology.

cyberscan wrote:

It says "God made TWO great lights" as in plural. As in more than one. Don't try and tell me about sunsets and terminology- it says plain as day "Two".

One for night and one for day. There is no mention of reflection or refraction or rainbows or whatever!! These people believed there was a different source of light at night.

cyberscan wrote:

Yeah, perhaps a few. But being a non-alcoholic myself I have seen them shun people who bring a case of beer to a barn party. Even though not everyone was drinking, they left in a huff.

cyberscan wrote:

Evolutionism is not some kind of religion. I don't know where you get that idea.. it's a theory on what happened. No one worships cell division.

Except biologists, but only during exam periods when the moon is full! Or so I hear.. Laughing

cyberscan
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: Religious Apes with Technology.

CornerPuzzlePieces wrote:

cyberscan wrote:

Yeah, perhaps a few. But being a non-alcoholic myself I have seen them shun people who bring a case of beer to a barn party. Even though not everyone was drinking, they left in a huff.

cyberscan wrote:

A full moon lights up the sky at night. It is light that is redirected towards Earth that would have escaped into the far reaches of space, so yes, the moon is a great light. The moon provides the light by redirecting it towards Earth.

When it comes to religious people shunning someone for bringing alcohol, you are dealing with some religious people. When you meet one religious person, you have met one religious person. I've have had the same thing happen to me, but I don't look down on an entire population because of the actions of a few of them.

Evolutionism meets the very definition of religion. A religion is a belief system that attempts to explain why we are here and what is going to happen to us in the future. A religion does not necessarily profess a belief in a supreme being. Buddhism is a prime example. Cell division is only a small part of the Evolutionist religion. Plenty of people worship Evolution. These include the Nazis and Communists. Take a look at history.

What did you expect? Did you actually believe that you can insult an entire population of people and not expect anyone to call you out on it? You basically implied that we are a bunch of apes who have no idea how technology works. I beg to differ. I'm a Bible believer. I am also a published non-fiction author. I am also a software engineer who repairs computers, televisions, telephones, engines, locks, and many other electronic and mechanical things. I can also garden, raise bees, weld, sew, use three human languages, and edit and produce multimedia content. Which of these things or other things can you do well? You should broaden your mind before you make blanket statements about many people you do not understand.

I'm sorry that you have met a few religious people who happen to (maybe) be stupid, but like I said before, you should NOT brand an entire population as stupid because they have different beliefs than you. I too, have met people of the Evolutionist faith who are as dumb as a post, and I have also met some quite intelligent people of the same belief. In fact, I USED to be an Evolutionist myself until I learned more about science, history, language, and and other disciplines. Maybe when you get away from the government education system, study a bit on your own, and take the time to experience life, you too might change your mind.
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