how falling birth rates will get fixed in the end?

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The_Walrus
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29 Jul 2012, 9:00 am

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Your HisDivineMajesty. Instead of all of these complexed socialist programs, I recommend something simple. Law taxes. So a man can have enough money to feed his family. And let market forces and nature take its natural course. If birth rate is low but economy is good, migrants will find their way. If most of those immigrants are Muslim, so be it. Don't need to waste money re-creating Islamic qualities in non-Muslims when the Muslims already have those qualities.


Yeah, dear Aspie_Chav,

You see we tried that approach but unfortunately those lovely muslims having utterly fecked up their own countries with their barbaric sky fairy beliefs decide to flee persecution from other muslims and come over here and now they have decided that we are infidels and have started blowing up public transport, telling us that we are scum, we can not have freedom speech and raping our children.

So frankly, rather a large proportion of real, actual people instead of media cutout people are now in favour of rolling out the ovens to go final solution on the muslim problem.

This is a bad thing considering that their are 50 million muslims in Europe living under the delusional belief that they are conquering heroes and rather a lot more annoyed natives...

Haha, clueless.

Those 50 million are doing a pretty crappy job, because they've only blown up public transport on a small number of occasions, have made absolutely no attempt to remove our freedom of speech, and have raped a few hundred children at most. Much smaller groups have set off more bombs, repressed more people and committed more sexual assaults.

I live in a community which has a significant Muslim population, my school is about 10% Muslim. I have never been told I am "scum" or an "infidel" by a Muslim, in fact the only time I have been called "scum" was when defending a Muslim from undeserved hate.

The problem is hate-mongering from small numbers of unintelligent people (or intelligent people who think the benefits to them of creating a moral panic will outweigh the suffering of Muslims that comes of it) who exaggerate any "problems", commonly in the Daily Mail and such newspapers. This has created the ugly underbelly of society, the genuine scum who think all Muslims are evil. I think this group is a bigger % of white people than the % of Muslims who wish to see sharia law imposed on the whole of Europe.



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29 Jul 2012, 9:14 am

Quote:

Those 50 million are doing a pretty crappy job, because they've only blown up public transport on a small number of occasions, have made absolutely no attempt to remove our freedom of speech, and have raped a few hundred children at most. Much smaller groups have set off more bombs, repressed more people and committed more sexual assaults.


"Only blown up public transport on a small number of occasions" and "raped a few hundred children at most" are phrases that should never be used to defend someone.



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29 Jul 2012, 9:20 am

The_Walrus wrote:
I live in a community which has a significant Muslim population, my school is about 10% Muslim. I have never been told I am "scum" or an "infidel" by a Muslim, in fact the only time I have been called "scum" was when defending a Muslim from undeserved hate.


10% isn't high. My school was 80% Muslim. The bullying is more likely to happen if you're a girl, and it's more likely that you'll get called 'white slut', than 'infidel'. Granted, boys (and other girls) call girls sluts, whatever their race.


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Last edited by puddingmouse on 29 Jul 2012, 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

The_Walrus
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29 Jul 2012, 9:21 am

BreezeGod wrote:
Quote:

Those 50 million are doing a pretty crappy job, because they've only blown up public transport on a small number of occasions, have made absolutely no attempt to remove our freedom of speech, and have raped a few hundred children at most. Much smaller groups have set off more bombs, repressed more people and committed more sexual assaults.


"Only blown up public transport on a small number of occasions" and "raped a few hundred children at most" are phrases that should never be used to defend someone.

I'm not defending anyone (those individuals who blow up public transport and rape children are sick), I'm pointing out the ridiculousness of the suggestion that these activities are being carried out (or even supported) by all 60 million Muslims in Europe.



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29 Jul 2012, 9:25 am

puddingmouse wrote:
10% isn't high. My school was 80% Muslim. The bullying is more likely to happen if you're a girl, and it's more likely that you'll get called 'white slut', than 'infidel'.


And I suppose Muslim kids calling white students "white slut" isn't punished as often as, say, a white child calling Muslim kids "Paki bastards"?



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29 Jul 2012, 9:27 am

puddingmouse wrote:
Sharia law isn't that much of an issue, since I can't supersede national law. It's no different to the Beth Din courts in the Jewish community. Sharia law in Nigeria is a different matter, but were talking about a different beast here.


However, many sharia courts carry out their practices in secret, behind closed doors. What goes on there? They could be sentencing people to death, or they could be arranging marriages for children. At the moment, a surprising amount of Moroccan men find the love of their life in a village in Morocco they've never actually visited, but where their parents have contacts. Even a brochure by the Dutch government (link) assumes most of them have never lived with their partners before, and many have just met them. The first time they meet their wife is at the airport. And that's not incidental - thousands of people a year. Some of the brilliant measures the government has finally decided to take:

* Attempting to ban marriage between cousins;
* Raising the age for recognized marriage partners up from 15;
* Ceasing to allow polygamy;
* Introducing actual standards in the test taken before they're allowed to move here. New standards include literacy - oh, the horror.

puddingmouse wrote:
The main issue with Islamic schools is that they suck. Most people don't have any problem with Catholic schools because they normally have high educational standards (although some are very sh** and just live off the reputation). There's a reason why most Muslim children (shudder at that phrase) go to state schools, or get into church schools. Personally, I question the need for all faith schools, but that opens a can of worms because people get pissed off with me when I make this argument. Plus, I currently work in Catholic sixth-form college (there aren't that many secular sixth forms where I live), so the church system dominates education in some parts of the country. You can't whinge about Islamic schools without being prepared to dismantle this whole faith school system.


Actually, even in their social and religious approach, islamic schools are a different thing altogether. We don't have school uniforms in this country, but in islamic schools, girls are supposed to dress "appropriately", which means wearing a hijab and preferably a dress - a black dress, in more extreme cases. They've also been known to tell homosexual students they were unnatural, or possessed by demons, and for sending them to North Africa for religious treatment. Tolerance of islamic schools is tolerance of intolerance.

puddingmouse wrote:
I have no problem admitting that Islam is as homophobic as the other two Abrahamic religions, but I've not completely made my mind up about the adherents. I've heard a lot of them say things like 'homosexuality doesn't happen in our culture', but I think they just say that rubbish unthinkingly in a pious way - the same way some of the say 'inshallah' after every other sentence. I think they're scared of their own thoughts and of thinking the wrong thing. I've never met one who actually seems to hate gays.


Perhaps we're a few steps ahead of the United Kingdom here. Homosexuals have literally been chased out of their houses by groups of muslims, and local authorities refused to do anything about it. Then they started going after jews, and once again, no response. Individual policemen want to do something, and people have formed a militia in one place, but police have orders to treat reports of these things like they'd treat a report about a stolen bicycle. "Do you have any evidence? Can you name the individuals who did this?" The same type of gentlemen also nearly murdered a pregnant woman for dating a non-Moroccan.

In theoretical terms, looking solely at their religious books, they're equally bad. In practical terms, the adherents of Islam take the cake for violent opposition to homosexuality.

puddingmouse wrote:
As for freedom of speech, Muslims have got it also in their scripture that no-one can say nasty things about Allah and hurt his wittle feelings. This is the same reason that we have blasphemy laws that protect Christianity. The Abrahamic God is touchy. It's a sign of the daftness of religion rather than a full-scale attack on all freedom of speech.


The difference between blasphemy laws and islamic standards is that blasphemy laws generally aren't followed anymore. They rank right in between steam engine regulations and laws against insulting the monarchy. In islamic standards, the last person I know of who was executed (read: brutally assassinated) for that in this country was Theo van Gogh, who was murdered in 2004 for insulting Muhammad ("and therefore deserving execution").

puddingmouse wrote:
If we're talking about Taliban-style amputations for wearing nail varnish, then I'd argue that the vast majority of Muslims in the Western world are not that misogynistic. If we're talking about denying women access to education, then only a minority are into that in the West. Most Pakistani families seem to value educated women as per Desi culture valuing education in general. The one time I came across a man denying education to a woman was when I saw a North African man tell his wife that she couldn't enrol on a English language course. Sickening, yes, but not a majority practice.


This is apologism. "Yes, they might assault women in broad daylight - yes, they might have informal sharia courts - yes, they might force girls to wear hijabs in state-funded schools - yes, they might refer lesbians for religious treatment - yes, they might force thousands of women to stay locked up at home - yes, they have murdered women for wanting a divorce in the past - but at least they're not the Taliban!"

puddingmouse wrote:
Could you please clarify what you mean by Muslims rejecting notions of human rights in the West? Most of the examples I can think of are culturally based and do not come from the religion.


Below, a journalist attempts to attend a demonstration by radical muslims. He's intimidated and threatened, and then he's dragged off by police.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFZemMBLM64[/youtube]

Below, they try to have a debate about modernising Islam in the west.
The people organising the debate have invited women without headscarves. Hilarity ensues.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJS6IypEVR8[/youtube]

Below, a man tries to argue with islamists, and is dragged off by police in plain clothes.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3_GbHNSp54[/youtube]

puddingmouse wrote:
I've met many, many more Muslim non-perverts than I have perverts. I think that maybe I just got harassed by so many Muslims because of the concentration of that particular group where I live. I was a teenage girl that walked around a busy city, alone and with lost, naive look on her face (due to autism). Unfortunately, gender relations being what they currently are in the world, that means I was almost certainly going to be sexually harassed.


That's an enormous group, then. They must span thousands upon thousands of square miles, because the exact same thing happens to a lot of people here, and anywhere from here to the German border with Poland. And yes, it's almost all muslims who behave in this way. Interesting, is it not?



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29 Jul 2012, 9:28 am

Tequila wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
10% isn't high. My school was 80% Muslim. The bullying is more likely to happen if you're a girl, and it's more likely that you'll get called 'white slut', than 'infidel'.


And I suppose Muslim kids calling white students "white slut" isn't punished as often as, say, a white child calling Muslim kids "Paki bastards"?


Nope. Especially when they say it in their own language.


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29 Jul 2012, 9:30 am

HDM, I'll get round to replying to your post later.


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29 Jul 2012, 9:43 am

Interesting post from HisDivineMajesty.

It really is shocking how much trouble that Islamists (not all Muslims, don't be ridiculous, and not a majority either, but a minority - not small - that are extreme elements) are causing in places like the Netherlands and the UK. I think it would be instructive for a certain Canadian moderator to come to the UK and tour our charming Muslim (and corresponding neighbouring poor white) ghettos so she can get a full understanding of the rich cultural tapestry that mass, uncontrolled immigration without integration has brought to my country, and quite a few others as well.

I suggest Longsight in Manchester for her first stop. Not too far away from puddingmouse either.



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29 Jul 2012, 10:11 am

HisDivineMajesty wrote:
And yes, it's almost all muslims who behave in this way.

Simply wrong.

Tequila wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
10% isn't high. My school was 80% Muslim. The bullying is more likely to happen if you're a girl, and it's more likely that you'll get called 'white slut', than 'infidel'.


And I suppose Muslim kids calling white students "white slut" isn't punished as often as, say, a white child calling Muslim kids "Paki bastards"?

10% is quite high, it is well above the % of people who are Muslim nationally (4%). 80% is obviously much higher though.

"White slut" is clearly not as bad an insult as "Paki bastard". "Bastard" is a bigger insult than "slut", and "Paki" has connotations that "white" does not. However, from my experience both groups would be punished equally if there were an exchange of insults like that.



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29 Jul 2012, 10:20 am

The_Walrus wrote:
10% is quite high, it is well above the % of people who are Muslim nationally (4%). 80% is obviously much higher though.


...That's really not a good way to judge whether or not you have a high percentage.

If 2% of the nation was Muslim and 5% of your school was Muslim, would you still consider that high?



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29 Jul 2012, 10:25 am

BreezeGod wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
10% is quite high, it is well above the % of people who are Muslim nationally (4%). 80% is obviously much higher though.


...That's really not a good way to judge whether or not you have a high percentage.

If 2% of the nation was Muslim and 5% of your school was Muslim, would you still consider that high?

Relatively high, but not absolutely high. I think 10% is a significant proportion at any rate (I never said "high", I just said significant). I reckon it's more like 30% in the community, though obviously it is hard to tell if someone is Muslim.



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29 Jul 2012, 11:43 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Simply wrong.


No. Whenever I encounter these people, they're muslims. Mostly North Africans, and mostly Moroccans, although there are also some Turks who are involved in this.

The_Walrus wrote:
"White slut" is clearly not as bad an insult as "Paki bastard". "Bastard" is a bigger insult than "slut", and "Paki" has connotations that "white" does not. However, from my experience both groups would be punished equally if there were an exchange of insults like that.


Actually, that's not really true. It's meant in a racist way, and it gives them a reason. "If you're a slut, you can't say no," is something I've heard some of them say.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_%28psychology%29

In Dutch, Moroccans have developed several racist remarks against white Europeans. "Kankerblanken", for example, because the word for cancer rhymes with the word for "white people". And yes, a large amount of them - perhaps a majority of young men - refer to us as a cancer while we're paying for their education, health care, welfare, retirement and we're paying police to keep them from doing even more things wrong. I'll repeat this in case you haven't heard: a majority, a literal majority, of almost-exclusively islamic Moroccan men have been arrested by the time they turn 22. And that's not small theft we're talking about.



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29 Jul 2012, 2:30 pm

HisDivineMajesty wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Simply wrong.


No. Whenever I encounter these people, they're muslims. Mostly North Africans, and mostly Moroccans, although there are also some Turks who are involved in this.

The_Walrus wrote:
"White slut" is clearly not as bad an insult as "Paki bastard". "Bastard" is a bigger insult than "slut", and "Paki" has connotations that "white" does not. However, from my experience both groups would be punished equally if there were an exchange of insults like that.


Actually, that's not really true. It's meant in a racist way, and it gives them a reason. "If you're a slut, you can't say no," is something I've heard some of them say.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_%28psychology%29

In Dutch, Moroccans have developed several racist remarks against white Europeans. "Kankerblanken", for example, because the word for cancer rhymes with the word for "white people". And yes, a large amount of them - perhaps a majority of young men - refer to us as a cancer while we're paying for their education, health care, welfare, retirement and we're paying police to keep them from doing even more things wrong. I'll repeat this in case you haven't heard: a majority, a literal majority, of almost-exclusively islamic Moroccan men have been arrested by the time they turn 22. And that's not small theft we're talking about.

Perhaps we misunderstood each other, when you said "all Muslims" I thought you meant "100% of Muslims" rather than "entirely Muslim".

Muslims can be racist towards white people, but "Paki" has a history associated with it similar to words like "n****r"- it means more than calling someone "white". I don't know how much meaning is loaded by "Kankerblanken", but "white slut" simply isn't as insulting as "Paki bastard".

Studies show that 54% of Moroccan males commit a crime before the age of 24 in the Netherlands, so yes, a majority. The most common crime amongst this group is shoplifting, so yes, it does tend to be small thefts. However, a few small things to note: being arrested does not mean you committed a crime, so you could argue that the Moroccans are suffering from discrimination at the hands of the police. Also, immigrants tend to be poorer, and the poor tend to commit more crimes, particularly petty theft. The study didn't control for wealth. Also, the study did not factor in criminals who plead guilty in order to get a reduced sentence- perhaps Dutch youths are likely to do this whereas Moroccans are more likely to contest charges.



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29 Jul 2012, 3:02 pm

http://www.forum.nl/Portals/Internation ... s-2010.pdf

If you go to "Social Participation" and then "Crime", you'll see that the native Dutch are just as likely to commit violent crime and more likely to commit vandalism etc. than the Moroccan immigrants, who are FAR more likely to commit property crime (i.e. stealing).

Turks are more likely to commit violent crime, about as likely to commit property crime as the Dutch, and less likely to commit vandalism.



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29 Jul 2012, 3:41 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
HisDivineMajesty wrote:
And yes, it's almost all muslims who behave in this way.

Simply wrong.

Tequila wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
10% isn't high. My school was 80% Muslim. The bullying is more likely to happen if you're a girl, and it's more likely that you'll get called 'white slut', than 'infidel'.


And I suppose Muslim kids calling white students "white slut" isn't punished as often as, say, a white child calling Muslim kids "Paki bastards"?

10% is quite high, it is well above the % of people who are Muslim nationally (4%). 80% is obviously much higher though.

"White slut" is clearly not as bad an insult as "Paki bastard". "Bastard" is a bigger insult than "slut", and "Paki" has connotations that "white" does not. However, from my experience both groups would be punished equally if there were an exchange of insults like that.


I don't think bastard is a worse insult that slut. Bastard simply mean illegitimate child, which is hardly even an insult when you think about it. Slut is a sexist word and a shaming moral judgement.


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