how falling birth rates will get fixed in the end?

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HisDivineMajesty
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02 Aug 2012, 6:45 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
Fine, your point is conceded. Sharia is bad, but how is it any more indicative of radicalism than Beth Din?


It's not more indicative, but it exists on a much larger scale in Europe than anyone would like to admit. And if you address these things in public without apologising in advance, you risk execution in the name of Islam. There was a man, Theo van Gogh, who made a movie about women's rights in Islam. He shouldn't have done that - he was murdered, or 'executed', for insulting Muhammad. Thankfully, the murderer was sentenced to life in prison. It's much better than the man who murdered Pim Fortuyn for political reasons ("scapegoating muslims", among other claims) and was sentenced to a lousy 18 years in prison.

puddingmouse wrote:
Islamic schools, should they continue to exist, need to be inspected by OFSTED, or they should be closed down. The same goes for fundamentalist Christian schools. What I meant was that you can't whinge about the existence of Islamic schools, and call for their closure, without also suggesting the same for all faith schools. It seems queer to target Islamic school in particular.


Ouch. They tried to use the results of nationwide tests here to determine which schools were very bad. Islamic schools came out right at the bottom, followed closely by 'multicultural' public schools. At the top were mostly semi-secular protestant schools and some catholic and semi-private schools. One problem that many islamic schools in the Netherlands seem to have is that they don't always speak Dutch during lessons. They're taught to read and write, and to discuss a little, but apparently, a sizeable amount of islamic schools carry out their daily business in other languages. One of them has a logo that says 'El Wahda', and the same name in Arabic.

What's most frustrating is that we pay for it. We pay for them to speak, read and write a language we don't understand, and a language that's going to set them up for failure in later education and employment, if they even reach that. By the end of primary school, they're able to recite several Qur'an verses in Arabic, but they're often not able to spell the name of their hometown or answer simple maths questions. The El Wahda school I mentioned before is complaining that the government won't fund a school for 130 muslim children who now have to go to a neighbouring town for islamic education. They say every child has the right to education in their area. Well, they do, because the area is full of public schools - it's their parents' choice that forces them to travel for an hour a day just so they can learn to recite the Qur'an.

They also had a quaint team building exercise. The children had a Qur'an recital contest, and were taught about islamic poetry.

puddingmouse wrote:
The problem regarding acceptance of homosexuality is the faith itself. In the context of Abrahamic religions, though, such an opinion is not radical.


In fact, most large denominations of western christianity don't really oppose homosexuality that much. Some might dismiss it a bit, or frown upon it, but a majority of them seem to accept, tolerate, and sometimes even support gay marriage and adoption. Even the pope isn't calling for homosexuals to be executed, castrated or imprisoned, as is law in several islamic countries. Muslims do tend to reject and condemn homosexuality, and that's not incidental - I'd say that's a sizeable majority of muslims worldwide, reflected in their laws, religious practices and public outcries and executions.

puddingmouse wrote:
What do you propose we do about this? You can't limit immigration from 'Islamic countries' purely because they have a majority of Muslims. Most of the issues relating to this in the UK involve people who already have extensive family connections over here, and people who already have citizenship or were born here.


Any measures beside border controls, a strict immigration policy, and a choice between forced assimilation or return to their country of origin are a case of fighting the symptoms. A few years ago, the Dutch government finally accepted the fact that islamic immigrants were pouring in at a much faster rate than even the most basic and sloppy integration courses could handle. However, we can't close the tap - Brussels is in charge of that.

This is one of the few instances where I'm happy we have Moroccans and Turks. Both of them are born, even here, with a Turkish or Moroccan passport. Unfortunately, that means some other things. They're obliged to swear loyalty to the King of Morocco and the government of Turkey, respectively. Turkish young men are also called up for Turkish conscription, unless they pay a large amount of money to the government of Turkey. Money they usually don't have, but we do - and that's where another interesting idea comes in. They once proposed that our government should pay the government of Turkey (~$10k for every young Turkish man) to buy them off conscription lists.

puddingmouse wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not very confident in the efficacy of 'the waiting game', I just think it's the best of a bad bunch of choices. I'm expecting the world to go tits-up financially again in a more serious way, so that Islam will become more dominant. It might just be my pessimism, but I think an impoverished, superstitious world is on the horizon whatever we do. I hope I'm wrong.


It's a pessimistic outlook, but it's happening in our backyards precisely because we're forced to play the waiting game. We're forced to accept hundreds of thousands of muslims who immigrate to Europe each year. We know most of them won't find work, most of them aren't educated beyond secondary school - and often not even beyond primary school - and we know a lot of them diametrically oppose our values. Thanks to Brussels, and our own political elites, we're forced to put on a false smile as we welcome them, knowing they're a net expense, knowing they didn't flee starvation or war, and knowing many of them make no secret of wanting to subject us to their rule.

puddingmouse wrote:
There's nothing innovative about sharia courts and Islamic schools as per Islamic tradition. Wahhabism is radical and innovative, but not a majority of Muslims in Europe are Wahhabis. These radicals have far too much influence on mainstream Islam and it is growing, but it's still not a majority.


That sounds an awful lot like "there were cockroaches, and I got food poisoning, and we were robbed by hotel staff, but at least the view was nice."

puddingmouse wrote:
We had them until 4 years ago. Many 'Christian' countries in Europe still have them.


We still have them. In 2004, they wanted to abolish blasphemy laws because one fundamentalist muslim had taken them too far and murdered a man for insulting Muhammad, but they decided not to because "just like women and homosexuals, religious people have the right not to be offended". Yes, we still have blasphemy laws so that we don't accidentally offend the type of people who see extrajudicial executions as a method of forcing their religion upon people. Christians don't care about blasphemy laws, and jews are mostly concerned with Moroccans driving them out of their houses and threatening to murder them. It's muslims who stir up trouble in this case.

puddingmouse wrote:
I'm aware that I'm being repetitive, but the other 3 Abrahamic religions and quite a few of the others aren't hot on human rights, either. The problem is that religion and government don't mix, but many of the faithful insist they should.


None of them - no other religion in the world, Abrahamic or not - comes even close to the size and intensity of violence and intolerance perpetrated in the name of Islam.



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02 Aug 2012, 8:17 pm

HisDivineMajesty wrote:
knowing they didn't flee starvation or war


And how do you, personally, know this?

Granted, when fleeing starvation or war, the tendency is to go to neighbouring countries and you do get fakes. However, I've worked with a few who were the real deal. They included Christians from Islamic countries (the ones you want to close the border to) and gay people fleeing persecution. I'm glad my country provided these people with asylum.


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We still have them. In 2004, they wanted to abolish blasphemy laws because one fundamentalist muslim had taken them too far and murdered a man for insulting Muhammad, but they decided not to because "just like women and homosexuals, religious people have the right not to be offended". Yes, we still have blasphemy laws so that we don't accidentally offend the type of people who see extrajudicial executions as a method of forcing their religion upon people. Christians don't care about blasphemy laws, and jews are mostly concerned with Moroccans driving them out of their houses and threatening to murder them. It's muslims who stir up trouble in this case.


The last time anyone tried to use blasphemy laws in this country was when some Christians tried to get Jerry Springer the Opera banned. Blasphemy laws when they existed in this country were explicitly about protecting Christianity because we still have a state religion.

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None of them - no other religion in the world, Abrahamic or not - comes even close to the size and intensity of violence and intolerance perpetrated in the name of Islam.


That's a big claim. On what do you base it?


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03 Aug 2012, 12:07 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
I reckon you can determine how offensive a word is by how willing common people are to throw it around in casual conversation. I hear "slut" said casually a lot, "bastard" rarely. Therefore I think the consensus, at least among my peers, is that "bastard" is more offensive.


If I had friends who used to word 'slut' all the time to refer to actual people, they wouldn't remain my friends.

Peers, not friends.

It's often used light-heartedly between friends.



DC
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03 Aug 2012, 12:42 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
Fine, your point is conceded. Sharia is bad, but how is it any more indicative of radicalism than Beth Din?



Perhaps I should just post this from a bunch of lawyers. Read it, there is a difference.

You may also be interested in this bit.

" In Canada there was an arbitration law that permitted binding religious arbitration. It was used by Christian religious courts. In 2003 the Ontario Islamic Institute of Civil Justice announced its intention to establish a Sharia court that would offer binding family arbitration to Ontario Muslims. There was a government proposal to allow this. However after much campaigning by women's rights groups, in 2005 the government of Ontario decided to ban all religious courts/tribunals from deciding family and inheritance law matters on the basis that there was a serious risk to the rights of individuals within minority groups. As part of the process a public education programme was launched to make vulnerable women aware of their rights under Canadian family law."

What a nasty bunch of bigotted intolerant racists the Canadians are. By contrast in Britain we have just ruled that muslim men who marry multiple women are allowed to receive benefits for all their wives even though polyamy is illegal in this country.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... efits.html


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You have yourself just criticised Islamic schools by saying they suck. You can't say they suck and then say you are not allowed to say they suck unless you want to dismantle the whole faith school system. You just have said that they suck so clearly it is possible to say that they suck...

For a start Islamic schools are not inspected by OFSTED, they have their own inspection system which does not report to anyone other than the schools themselves. It is called the Bridge Schools Inspectorate. Please note they also inspect extremist Christian schools, the ones that teach creationism instead of science...

The superiority of religious schools is almost certainly a myth, the 'quality' almost always comes from selection of students. This concentrates troubled students in the non-religious schools and makes the religious schools look better than they are.

Finally I'm perfectly happy to remove religion from the school system, brainwashing should not be part of the taxpayer funded education system.


Islamic schools, should they continue to exist, need to be inspected by OFSTED, or they should be closed down. The same goes for fundamentalist Christian schools. What I meant was that you can't whinge about the existence of Islamic schools, and call for their closure, without also suggesting the same for all faith schools. It seems queer to target Islamic school in particular.

{/quote]
I'm perfectly happy to close all the faith schools, I'm an equal opportunities sky fairy basher! :lol:

If we must have faith schools, I would settle for them only being allowed 40% of students from that particular faith and make sure they understand they will lose their privilege if they abuse it by teaching creationism or that 'jews are pigs' etc

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I mean exactly what I said, a telephone survey of British muslims was carried out by a respected non-partisan professional survey organisation with no axe to grind. When asked about homosexuality, every single one of the 500 muslim respondents condemned it, without exception.


The problem regarding acceptance of homosexuality is the faith itself. In the context of Abrahamic religions, though, such an opinion is not radical. It's only radically different from liberal Western culture (which I am a huge proponent of, btw). What do you propose we do about this? You can't limit immigration from 'Islamic countries' purely because they have a majority of Muslims. Most of the issues relating to this in the UK involve people who already have extensive family connections over here, and people who already have citizenship or were born here. Unless you go for the mass deportation route (unethical, expensive and will cause a huge international outcry), then the only viable strategy is to play the waiting game and let the effects of affluence take their course. In the meantime us liberals need to defend our values, but that doesn't include labelling large numbers of people radicals. The meaning of which, I will get to later.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not very confident in the efficacy of 'the waiting game', I just think it's the best of a bad bunch of choices. I'm expecting the world to go tits-up financially again in a more serious way, so that Islam will become more dominant. It might just be my pessimism, but I think an impoverished, superstitious world is on the horizon whatever we do. I hope I'm wrong.


There is a massive gaping flaw in the affluence argument.
It is called Saudi Arabia.

The Saudi's are wealthy, correct?
What have they done with that wealth?

Funded terrorists and spent at least $87 billion dollars spreading Wahhabism around the world. They still sentence women to death for witchcraft and yet drive lots Ferraris. The idea that islam will liberalise as it grows in wealth is the absolute complete opposite of everything that can observed happening in the world.

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In that case you should spend a lot more time with a dictionary.

Go and look up some definitions of the word 'radical'

1. Characterized by departure from tradition; innovative or progressive
2. Relating to or affecting the fundamental nature of something; far-reaching or thorough
3. A person who advocates thorough or complete political or social reform; a member of a political party or part of a party pursuing such aims.

If you reject the cultural norms of society, the legal system and the education system and decide to live completely separate from it, you are by definition a radical. Living inside of a system and occasional voicing opinions that differ significantly from the mainstream is enough to qualify for the 'radical' label. Islam in Britain has gone a very, very long past that.

As per your given definition:
1. There's nothing innovative about sharia courts and Islamic schools as per Islamic tradition. Wahhabism is radical and innovative, but not a majority of Muslims in Europe are Wahhabis. These radicals have far too much influence on mainstream Islam and it is growing, but it's still not a majority.
2. If all Muslims want to fundamentally alter every aspect of society, they're doing a pretty crappy job of it. All missionary religions have that as an end goal though. Since evangelism plays a role (no matter how tiny) in every single branch of Christianity (the precedent was set with the Apostles), then using your logic, every single branch of Christianity is radical. Fear those crazy Quakers!
3. see above

The thing is, Muslims don't completely reject the norms of society. They reject certain ones in very visible ways. The problem with the 'radical' label is that it means different things to different people. It's possible to be very radical and relatively harmless at the same time, in the manner of those weird eco people who live self-sufficient lifestyles, or on communes. According to the dictionary definition they are radical. Some Muslims who are very devout but not Wahhabi fall under your definition of radical. They're not integrating into Western culture, but they don't wish us any harm. When we discuss Islam and Muslims, the 'radical' label takes on an extra meaning. Due to the state of world affairs and because news reporters use the word 'radical' when discussing terrorists. We're not playing with dictionary definitions here, we're playing with a label that in this context is tantamount to calling people terrorists (another hotly contested word).



What rubbish.

If a woman describes herself as a radical feminist one does not automatically assume that she is going to fly planes into buildings to hit back at the evil patriarchy.

We communicate using words, those words have definitions and the word 'radical' is perfectly valid to use in conjunction with the 66% percent of muslim in this country that say they wish to live in this country but also want to live under sharia law.

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We don't have blasphemy laws. Keep up at the back... :wink:


We had them until 4 years ago. Many 'Christian' countries in Europe still have them.


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Erm, I mean the fact that the UN declaration of Human Rights was declared 'unislamic' and 'incompatible with sharia law' by the OIC and the member states of the OIC instead decided to implement the Cairo declaration of human rights in islam.

You can't get away with saying that has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with culture because it is entirely, 100% percent a religious issue.


I wasn't attempting to say that it had nothing to do with religion, I was asking for clarification on your point, which you have provided, thank you.

What I had in mind regarding human rights violations was things like forced marriage, which are cultural issues. So, it's not 100% a religious issue.

I'm aware that I'm being repetitive, but the other 3 Abrahamic religions and quite a few of the others aren't hot on human rights, either. The problem is that religion and government don't mix, but many of the faithful insist they should.


And I'm just as critical of crazy African preachers torturing the devils out children and bishops that cover up catholic paedophile priests in Ireland.

The BS known as religion should not get an easy ride, Christianity didn't simply die off in this country because it gave up all on it's own. It died off because rational people challenged it and exposed it for the crock of crap that it is.

Islam should get an especially hard time though just to make it clear that it is not acceptable to go around murdering people for criticising your imaginary sky fairy and paedophile warlord of a prophet.



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03 Aug 2012, 4:29 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
And how do you, personally, know this?


They're mostly from Morocco and Turkey, specifically, in this country. Almost none of them are from countries affected by famine, and many who do come from countries affected by famine are linked to the organisations that made the famine worse. A lot of Somalians living here, for example, are hitched to Al-Shabaab, which has a record of denying food aid in territories it controls to anyone suspected of communicating with non-muslims. Basically, the people who take our food, then give it to people they deem sufficiently religious. The precious few people who fled famine to get here aren't generally muslims.

puddingmouse wrote:
Granted, when fleeing starvation or war, the tendency is to go to neighbouring countries and you do get fakes. However, I've worked with a few who were the real deal. They included Christians from Islamic countries (the ones you want to close the border to) and gay people fleeing persecution. I'm glad my country provided these people with asylum.


And those are fine. They can come here, as they've shown in the past to be much more likely to be educated and able to find employment. The problem is with the large majority, the bulk of immigration from islamic countries. They've consistently shown problems. A literal sixty-five percent of Moroccan men had been arrested by the end of their teenage years. Christians have shown in the past to be generally suitable and hard-working additions to society, unlike muslims, who've shown to be the opposite of that in general. Homosexuals, meanwhile, are much less likely to drive homosexuals out of their houses, like muslims are known to do here.

Basically, those are the groups - along with jews - who suffer in islamic countries, and suffer increasingly as the amount of muslims increases here. There are plenty of stories from the Netherlands about jews and homosexuals being harrassed by muslims until they were forced to leave their houses. Bricks thrown to windows, random acts of violence, groups of muslims standing outside their houses, people scratching their cars and occasionally even setting them on fire - those are the things we have here by now. Some neighbourhoods in The Hague now feel more dangerous than Cairo for non-heterosexuals, women or non-muslims.

puddingmouse wrote:
The last time anyone tried to use blasphemy laws in this country was when some Christians tried to get Jerry Springer the Opera banned. Blasphemy laws when they existed in this country were explicitly about protecting Christianity because we still have a state religion.


Then that's a situation you needed to get rid of - and apparently you did. What was your secret to not upsetting muslims to a point where they started murdering people?

puddingmouse wrote:
HisDivineMajesty wrote:
None of them - no other religion in the world, Abrahamic or not - comes even close to the size and intensity of violence and intolerance perpetrated in the name of Islam.


That's a big claim. On what do you base it?


Laws that insist on capital punishment for homosexuality exist in these countries:

- Sudan
- Mauritania
- Iran
- Saudi Arabia
- Yemen
- Northern Nigeria, under local islamic law
- Southern Somalia, under islamist control

In name of Islam, more people are consistently persecuted, murdered and assaulted than in name of any other religion. Coptic Christians are fleeing Egypt in increasing numbers in the face of religious violence, and in Libya, many government officials have called for laws based strongly on Shariah while people are being murdered by militias for being black and for being non-muslim. In Somalia, there have been reports about food aid being withheld from anyone accused of communicating with non-muslims. In Pakistan, several people are apparently on death row for insulting the prophet Muhammad. Islamists have carried out political assassinations in Europe in the past ten years. Islamists have a near-monopoly on terrorism, and link it directly to their religion. Muslims in Europe apparently use their religion at times to justify rape and murder in 'honour-related' crimes against those who 'violate laws of Islam'. Apparently, 523 people have been killed in terrorist attacks worldwide during Ramadan so far in name of Islam, versus a grand total of none in name of any other religion or in name of any other ideology. There's a lovely 'Ramadan Bombathon' where anti-islamists keep track of the score each year.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/tears-of-jihad/

My apologies for only responding now. On my laptop earlier, my browser suddenly crashed, followed by my internet dropping.



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03 Aug 2012, 5:06 pm

DC wrote:

What rubbish.

If a woman describes herself as a radical feminist one does not automatically assume that she is going to fly planes into buildings to hit back at the evil patriarchy.

We communicate using words, those words have definitions and the word 'radical' is perfectly valid to use in conjunction with the 66% percent of muslim in this country that say they wish to live in this country but also want to live under sharia law.



Not rubbish, and you can't deflect this by referring to radical feminism, which is a totally different topic. You know that in this context the word radical carries the extra meaning of terrorist (unless you're unaware of the effect of the media on public perception).

Whilst it might be logically acceptable to define the majority of Muslims as radicals, doing so has unwanted consequences. That was my whole point. People communicate with words and unfortunately, they are slippery.

Unless you feel that antagonising most of the Muslims in the country is a good thing. I don't. It will just anger the liberal ones and push the conservative ones even more towards the extreme end. I understand the virtue of saying it as you see it, but it's not always productive.


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04 Aug 2012, 12:56 am

If they have radical beliefs, though, it's not in our best interest that they cooperate - it's in our best interest that they submit. And that's fairly hard if our tax money pays for schools where it's taught that homosexuality is morally corrupt and that religious treatment will cure them. It's fairly hard if they're taught that women without headscarves are prostitutes.



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04 Aug 2012, 1:15 am

HisDivineMajesty wrote:
If they have radical beliefs, though, it's not in our best interest that they cooperate - it's in our best interest that they submit. And that's fairly hard if our tax money pays for schools where it's taught that homosexuality is morally corrupt and that religious treatment will cure them. It's fairly hard if they're taught that women without headscarves are prostitutes.


No, we don't want them cowed and waiting for a chance at vengeance. We don't want them to submit, that's just you wanting some sort of triumph or dominance for emotional satisfaction. We want them to willingly cooperate because they come to see that it's a better way for them and everyone, at which point, they aren't radicals at all anymore.



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04 Aug 2012, 2:06 am

edgewaters wrote:
No, we don't want them cowed and waiting for a chance at vengeance. We don't want them to submit, that's just you wanting some sort of triumph or dominance for emotional satisfaction. We want them to willingly cooperate because they come to see that it's a better way for them and everyone, at which point, they aren't radicals at all anymore.


And how do we get their community to cooperate? Find the extremist and problematic ones, make it abundantly clear we won't accept their behaviour, and offer them a choice. They accept our values, and teach those instead of teaching islamic theology to children starting at the age of four with the help of public money. If they fail to do so, they're offered a one-way ticket to their country of origin. If they commit crimes, they should be punished for that with no regards to their culture.

The moment you accept their point of view, you start opening the floodgates. You should not appease them if those are their views. We've done that for thirty years, and that game is truly over now. Thirty years ago, merely stating that they would have a higher chance of employment if they spoke our language instead of Arabic would cause a politician to be accused of being a violent racist. In that documentary I watched, the woman asked herself what she was doing wrong to be constantly harrassed by muslim men. The next step would be prosecution of political figures for speaking out against that - were it not for the fact that you'd be thirty years behind on the facts if you claimed that to be the next step. The next step would be the acceptance of Shariah courts - were it not for the fact that some European countries have been tolerating those for over a decade now.

We need to tolerate exactly none of those beliefs. We need to root out the radical forms of their ideology (as one preacher politely described his religion before saying Europe should accept it), and regulate the moderated forms. The main premise would be to apply the same pressure to them that was applied to Christianity. Make them acceptable for criticism instead of having the political elite defend their feelings like there's no tomorrow. If they complain about a cartoon, tell them to sod off. If they commit crimes in front of policemen, tell the police to carry out their legal duty and arrest these people instead of separating and arresting people protesting against them.



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04 Aug 2012, 2:22 am

HisDivineMajesty wrote:
The next step would be the acceptance of Shariah courts - were it not for the fact that some European countries have been tolerating those for over a decade now.


And we never had to lift to finger to stop Shariah here. We even considered giving it to them, but they told us ... they didn't want it.

The Muslim women formed an alliance to stop it. They didn't really need any help, they were quite gung-ho about it. Actually they couldn't get any help. The left was ambivalent, caught in cognitive dissonance between feminism and multiculturalism, and the right, well, they oh so badly wanted to help but the bill, if defeated, would (and did) mean that Jewish and Christian religious tribunals would have got repealed too, and they couldn't have that.

But no matter. Help wasn't needed. They embarrassed the premier, beat back a peculiar coalition of radical Muslims aligned with Judeo-Christian fundamentalists (talk about strange bedfellows) and got it all repealed.

Our Muslims are more stridently secular than we are, it seems.

And you've got Shariah tribunals, you say? What a pity. I wonder what you're doing wrong. Couldn't be that your adversarialism doesn't work worth a damn, could it? I mean ... you must be getting some pretty spectacular results overall, right? This must just be some sort of fluke or exception. I'm sure nothing crazy is going on over there, like huge Muslim mobs rioting in your major cities and neo-Nazi skinheads on the march in the streets and soccer stadiums.



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04 Aug 2012, 3:34 am

edgewaters wrote:
And we never had to lift to finger to stop Shariah here. We even considered giving it to them, but they told us ... they didn't want it.


Canada's share of muslims is laughably low. The Netherlands has a significantly lower population, but a significantly higher muslim population. Additionally, these are people generally known in Morocco, Turkey and sometimes even Iraq and Somalia to be fundamentalists and troublemakers. Our immigration requirements are extremely bad, because we can't set them. It was considered a victory that we could ask for them to at least be literate. Doesn't mean we can refuse convicted drug smugglers and human traffickers, though. I've heard you can't move to Canada if you don't speak any languages spoken there, or if you'll immediately request welfare without looking for a job. If we want to refuse someone over their past, our government needs to prove that they are war criminals or we ourselves are guilty of human rights violations per European treaties.

edgewaters wrote:
Our Muslims are more stridently secular than we are, it seems.


You are the exact opposite of Europe, it seems.

edgewaters wrote:
And you've got Shariah tribunals, you say? What a pity. I wonder what you're doing wrong. Couldn't be that your adversarialism doesn't work worth a damn, could it?


Unfortunately, we can't call ourselves adversarial. A lot of people do hate them, a lot of people don't even hide racist motives, but that's more a result than a cause of the political climate. Don't forget, at first we welcomed them. They were free to do as they pleased, to go wherever they wanted to go, and to do what they wanted to do. That includes just a few hours of community service for instances of rape, sentences of just a few years in prison for murder, and politicians refusing to have them learn our language because 'that is their choice, and their culture is equal to ours.'

In the 1990s, saying anything that offended them was still actively punished, and one member of parliament was sentenced for hate speech along with a member of a city council when he said something most people think by now - in 1997. In 2002, a man was sentenced to just eighteen years in prison for murdering a politician set to win the elections the next week because he had "scapegoated muslims". The judges, as tradition goes, made no attempt to hide their liberal political motives - they were part of the caste that had alienated and demonised him for years before he was murdered.

edgewaters wrote:
I mean ... you must be getting some pretty spectacular results overall, right? This must just be some sort of fluke or exception. I'm sure nothing crazy is going on over there, like huge Muslim mobs rioting in your major cities and neo-Nazi skinheads on the march in the streets and soccer stadiums.


It's a side effect. A side effect of letting tens of thousands of them in every year in addition to extreme birth rates of children raised by islamic standards and often even under practical islamic law. A side effect of letting them in while our native population opposes their arrival. A side effect of letting them in despite their groups never having been a net economic asset to society for several generations now. A side effect of letting them in while a lot of them are convicted human traffickers or drug smugglers, and some of them are even active members of Al-Shabaab or Al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb. A side effect of punishing people speaking out against their calls to overthrow our government.

It's like the European Union, I suppose. If people want one thing, and you do the exact opposite, this is what happens.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFKdczGkmtU[/youtube]

At several points during the past two years, they had to use rather extreme violence to keep the people from occupying parliament - they came very close to doing so.