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Bubbles137
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11 Aug 2012, 12:03 pm

Kenjitsuka wrote:
Bubbles137 wrote:
when I went under a certain weight, my obsessive feelings and anxiety (particularly about other people) would fade a lot and all that mattered was routine/structure which was a lot easier to cope with


That's what happens when the brain supposedly cannot get enough calories to function normally. It get's into a different power-saving mode, where emotions lessen.
You should read up on that if you haven't.
Problem is; stay there too long and the changes become permanent (or at least impossible for you to WANT to go back) and then within a year or so you die from starvation...


I know the science of it, and the problem is that I kind of want that again but can't because the bingeing/purging is too useful for short term management and while I'm doing that, my weight goes up (no idea why since I vomit but the dietician said it's probably because I've been restricting for so long that my body takes every calorie it can as quickly as it can and I put on weight really easily). I've have an ED since I was 13 (I'm 25 now) and have been an inpatient three times although not in the last five years, really want to stop the bingeing coz I hate it but it gets rid of the guilty/nauseous feeling I don't like.



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11 Aug 2012, 2:09 pm

Wandering_Stranger wrote:
Rattus wrote:
and I cannot tell if I am thristy or not..


I think this is my problem too.



I can't tell until my throat is dry. I was told feeling that way means you are not drinking enough water. But me having water never occurs to me until my throat is dry.


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Kenjitsuka
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11 Aug 2012, 2:14 pm

Bubbles137, it's good that you have the knowledge.
I am in the same situation as you... I *know* it all, but just... don't care or believe it on some level.

I've known many bulimia women as well.
Most women with anorexia eventually go through a few phases of it, in fact.
I too gained when I had a single short period of binging/purging.
That made me go back to restricting. Back then I actually *had* to restrict.
Now I *have* to force myself to get calories...

If I remember correctly, even if you purging right away you can only retrieve 40-50% of calories you took in at BEST...
But more worrisome is the pressure on the blood vessels lining the stomach and of course the damage to your throat and teeth, which are all severe.
Just so you know, you can die within 30 seconds if those blood vessels burst. :roll:


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InThisTogether
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11 Aug 2012, 2:54 pm

Kenjitsuka wrote:
Just so you know, you can die within 30 seconds if those blood vessels burst.


One could reasonably ask, though, what the end difference is if your death took 30 seconds from burst blood vessels or 12 months from starvation. Dead is dead.


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Bubbles137
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11 Aug 2012, 4:32 pm

Kenjitsuka wrote:
Bubbles137, it's good that you have the knowledge.
I am in the same situation as you... I *know* it all, but just... don't care or believe it on some level.

I've known many bulimia women as well.
Most women with anorexia eventually go through a few phases of it, in fact.
I too gained when I had a single short period of binging/purging.
That made me go back to restricting. Back then I actually *had* to restrict.
Now I *have* to force myself to get calories...

If I remember correctly, even if you purging right away you can only retrieve 40-50% of calories you took in at BEST...
But more worrisome is the pressure on the blood vessels lining the stomach and of course the damage to your throat and teeth, which are all severe.
Just so you know, you can die within 30 seconds if those blood vessels burst. :roll:


Thanks for the reply, so glad it's not just me. I hate it though, feels better at the time but horrible afterwards :( but seems to have become part of my routine which I find really hard to break. Wish I could go back to restricting but can't cope with the horrible feeling that comes at night (when I stop doing things). Really scary both about the calories retained (although that explains the weight gain) and the other impact, my teeth are already horrible, had to have one out a couple of months ago and need another one out in a few weeks as well as a filling and root canal, and I've always got a sore throat and heartburn. It's been happening every day for three years now though :( no idea how to stop it.



daydreamersworld
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11 Aug 2012, 9:05 pm

SanityTheorist wrote:
daydreamersworld, to be blunt, that is the talk of a psycho. You wanted a sense of control from losing your passion. It is no different from how anorexia starts for everyone else.



could be



Kenjitsuka
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12 Aug 2012, 11:16 am

Bubbles137 wrote:
Thanks for the reply, so glad it's not just me. I hate it though, feels better at the time but horrible afterwards :( but seems to have become part of my routine which I find really hard to break. Wish I could go back to restricting but can't cope with the horrible feeling that comes at night (when I stop doing things). Really scary both about the calories retained (although that explains the weight gain) and the other impact, my teeth are already horrible, had to have one out a couple of months ago and need another one out in a few weeks as well as a filling and root canal, and I've always got a sore throat and heartburn. It's been happening every day for three years now though :( no idea how to stop it.


Bubbles137, you are definitely not alone! There are quite many of us in fact. I am not sure how to break the bulemic routine and go back to restricting...
Since my therapy has always focused on things other than my ED, I don't know how to help you.

I guess babysteps, as with many things?
Keep track of how many purges per day, then do it one time less a day for a week. Then again one less the next week etc... ??
Don't you have a therapist you can ask about this?

Clearly stopping purging is vital for your health. Your entire digestive tract is suffering greatly. :(

InThisTogether: We don't want to die. So that makes a big difference with that accident :!:
And your twelve months is quite an arbitrary number. Most of us have been affected for MANY years...
And the "end difference" is quite simply "more time with your family, more time to get better".
Or would you just shoot yourself in the head if you got cancer? To answer you: "what is the end difference?". That is.
Now you know, don't be so judgmental.


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The Broad Autism Phenotype Test: You scored 132 aloof, 126 rigid and 132 pragmatic. IQ: 139. AQ: 45/50


InThisTogether
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12 Aug 2012, 12:05 pm

Kenjitsuka wrote:
InThisTogether: We don't want to die. So that makes a big difference with that accident :!:
And your twelve months is quite an arbitrary number. Most of us have been affected for MANY years...
And the "end difference" is quite simply "more time with your family, more time to get better".
Or would you just shoot yourself in the head if you got cancer? To answer you: "what is the end difference?". That is.
Now you know, don't be so judgmental.


Of course the 12 months is arbitrary. But in my experience, once someone reaches that "critical point," unless something extreme happens, they are dead within a year. Being "affected by" anorexia is not the same as being at that critical point. Many anorexics never get to that point and all they probably do is shorten their lifespans a number of years by abusing their bodies. But sadly, some do reach that point. RIP to those who have. It's tragic.

Having suffered from ED myself for years, I do not feel that I am being judgmental. But I remember the games we all played. You rationalize and justify all kinds of things. One of which was the belief that since you were not trying to kill yourself, somehow it was "different." It's not different. And in the long run, it is no different than putting a loaded gun to your head and pulling the trigger. It just takes longer, is all. It wasn't until I fully understood that I was killing myself that I was able to stop. IMHO, as long as you are able to justify and rationalize your behavior, you have no real reason to stop. But as soon as you walk around believing "I am killing myself by continuing this" your motivation changes significantly, at least it did for me.

The "games" (rationalizations, justifications, simplifications, etc) are evident throughout this thread, and I used to be you, so I feel I am in a place where I can call you on it. ("You" in the plural sense, not directed at any one individual).

You can recover. I did. And I am no different than anyone else here.


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Rattus
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12 Aug 2012, 12:24 pm

I hope more than I can explain that I can recover, I never thought it would get this bad. I know I need someone to step in now but there isn't anyone. There is no funding for any appropriate help and I am reaching the point where I don't know what to do. I've been on potassium supplements for over 9 months now but I'm not managing to get the bulimia under control at all.



Kenjitsuka
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12 Aug 2012, 12:46 pm

InThisTogether: I'm glad you got 'out'. Maybe you are not being judgmental. Maybe it's just the disease lashing out.
If you've heard the term cognitive bias before you know I am having a hard time to be unbiased in this matter.
What I wrote is just how I feel.

"The long-term prognosis of anorexia nervosa is changeable: a fifth of patients stay severely ill, another fifth of patients recover fully and three fifths of patients have a fluctuating and chronic course (Gelder, Mayou and Geddes 2005)."
Found this number on Wikipedia, and it's quite accurate from the people I know and the documentaries I've seen.
Just 20% get past it, and that number is the same for people in IT. Those that try their hardest still fail most of the time, even with good help.
Not trying to be a downer here, but that's just the statistics. Fully recovering is SUPER hard...

On the other side, I don't want to seek treatment if that just means "Gain 25 pounds and then stay there".
If I where to gain even ten pounds I'd get actively suicidal again.
That was last time. The time before that I tried to do some DIY surgery to get rid of excess skin on my stomach...
At this time I need this, and I'm not really in any danger, if you can believe that... Like I said my psychiatrist approves of this weight and I've been stable here for two years.

So you might say it's like putting a gun to my head, but it's really either this very slow suicide or instant slash my wrists suicide.
I've been working hard with psychiatrists and psychologists for several years now, just to manage the anxiety and stress of Generalized Anxiety Disorder and Aspergers.
Once that's under control I at least have the room in my head and schedule to do something about the Anorexia.
Everytime I bring up my weight the two psychologists say: "No point of discussing it now. Just stay at the agreed weight. I'm here to work on the trauma's/making your life more autism friendly".

At least the psychiatrist wants to do something, which might end up calling in a third psychologist for the ED...
Not like I have work, need 12.5-13 hours of sleep on this medication and so on contending for my time and energy...
Things are just never easy, I guess :wink:

EDIT: By the way, about my perhaps too aggressive response...
I used to be on pro-anorexia forums where only the chronic cases would meet.
Often random people would sign up and then post things like "You faking whores! I hope you all get raped and die!" and even more foulmouthed, mean spirited things... some even posted rape pictures with messages like "this should be you". Quite sickening, as we where just minding our own business and bouncing out the wannarexics etc...
Guess that makes me a little ... fast and loose with my responses.


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Empathy quotient: 14
Your Aspie score: 185 of 200
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The Broad Autism Phenotype Test: You scored 132 aloof, 126 rigid and 132 pragmatic. IQ: 139. AQ: 45/50


Last edited by Kenjitsuka on 12 Aug 2012, 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kenjitsuka
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12 Aug 2012, 12:49 pm

Rattus wrote:
I hope more than I can explain that I can recover, I never thought it would get this bad. I know I need someone to step in now but there isn't anyone. There is no funding for any appropriate help and I am reaching the point where I don't know what to do. I've been on potassium supplements for over 9 months now but I'm not managing to get the bulimia under control at all.


Rattus, what's your BMI if I may ask?
Why do you think there is no funding for your help?
What if you go to an ER and try to get in via that route?

I've been taking potassium for the past 15 months.
Really weird, as I eat one varying, normal meal each day... and potassium is in almost everything! :roll:


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The Broad Autism Phenotype Test: You scored 132 aloof, 126 rigid and 132 pragmatic. IQ: 139. AQ: 45/50


Bubbles137
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12 Aug 2012, 2:52 pm

Kenjitsuka wrote:

Bubbles137, you are definitely not alone! There are quite many of us in fact. I am not sure how to break the bulemic routine and go back to restricting...
Since my therapy has always focused on things other than my ED, I don't know how to help you.

I guess babysteps, as with many things?
Keep track of how many purges per day, then do it one time less a day for a week. Then again one less the next week etc... ??
Don't you have a therapist you can ask about this?

Clearly stopping purging is vital for your health. Your entire digestive tract is suffering greatly. :(



Could try that...problem is that it only happens at night and seems to happen in 'cycles'- lots of mini binges/purges that get a bit obsessive. Not seeing a therapist any more, was seeing a dietician and occupational therapist until a few weeks ago but it wasn't making much difference and I felt like I was wasting their time. I'm seeing a psychiatrist in a few months to see how things are going but apart from that, not seeing anyone else. Have been seeing people for 7 years and it seems to have 'plateaued' a bit so not sure where to go from here...



Rattus
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12 Aug 2012, 2:57 pm

I'm on the low end of normal (around 19) which is far too high in the UK. The problem is that I have had a lot of ED help for the wrong diagnosis (I was diagnosed as having BPD/AvPD traits by a psychiatrist who met me for less than 5 minutes) and was treated as being a manipulative time waster. Now it's been realised that it's ASD and not a PD, I am on a 14 month waiting list for an assessment. (it's been verified by a psychiatrist and my psychotherapist who has worked with me for 3+ years and used to work with people and families of those on the Autistic Spectrum).
However, the ED team can't work with anything but the ED, the day centre can't work with the ASD aspects of the ED. I can go to the ED day centre but will be asked to leave if I use any ED behaviours, refuse anything of any meal, use any of the banned table behaviours etc. Everything has to be discussed in groups and nothing can be discussed on a one to one basis with the people who work there.
1) I have massive social difficulties (clearly) so discussing anything as a group is very very difficult.
2) The sensory issues mean I have a long history of going fairly bonkers in groups.
3) ED's are part of my special interest and I have a horrible habit of dominating groups to a truly ASD level. People tend to get pretty mad and I get very embarressed.
4) Whilst I clearly have ED aspects to my ED, an awful lot of it (2/3) is ASD, numbers and sensory issues being overriding.
5) when I panic I meltdown and that means at a table infront of food when I have to eat it in a weird way (I don't like things touching, I hate foods mixing and I like numbers) I am even more likely to meltdown.
6) I won't be allowed to do any physical stims because they will see it as calorie burning. I will not be allowed to rock or pace or leg bounce or jiggle or do any of those things that calm me down.

I'm screwed.

I'm so sorry, I've totally highjacked this. I'm really sorry.



Kenjitsuka
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12 Aug 2012, 3:16 pm

Rattus wrote:
I'm on the low end of normal (around 19) which is far too high in the UK. The problem is that I have had a lot of ED help for the wrong diagnosis (I was diagnosed as having BPD/AvPD traits by a psychiatrist who met me for less than 5 minutes) and was treated as being a manipulative time waster. Now it's been realised that it's ASD and not a PD, I am on a 14 month waiting list for an assessment. (it's been verified by a psychiatrist and my psychotherapist who has worked with me for 3+ years and used to work with people and families of those on the Autistic Spectrum).
However, the ED team can't work with anything but the ED, the day centre can't work with the ASD aspects of the ED. I can go to the ED day centre but will be asked to leave if I use any ED behaviours, refuse anything of any meal, use any of the banned table behaviours etc. Everything has to be discussed in groups and nothing can be discussed on a one to one basis with the people who work there.
1) I have massive social difficulties (clearly) so discussing anything as a group is very very difficult.
2) The sensory issues mean I have a long history of going fairly bonkers in groups.
3) ED's are part of my special interest and I have a horrible habit of dominating groups to a truly ASD level. People tend to get pretty mad and I get very embarressed.
4) Whilst I clearly have ED aspects to my ED, an awful lot of it (2/3) is ASD, numbers and sensory issues being overriding.
5) when I panic I meltdown and that means at a table infront of food when I have to eat it in a weird way (I don't like things touching, I hate foods mixing and I like numbers) I am even more likely to meltdown.
6) I won't be allowed to do any physical stims because they will see it as calorie burning. I will not be allowed to rock or pace or leg bounce or jiggle or do any of those things that calm me down.

I'm screwed.

I'm so sorry, I've totally highjacked this. I'm really sorry.


Hijacked what? The thread is called Anorexia and AS! More like, put it back on original topic 8)

To be honest, at BMI 19 you shouldn't be in any immediate physical risks. Which is a good thing btw.
So that might slow help.

On the crazy long waiting lists and the refusal to treat anyone with multiple diagnosis are what I also had to cope with here in NL.
Pretty sure your list of six items will be exactly what awaits me when I try to get some ED help!! !
I guess we bump into the same problems here in NL as you over there, so I can't really give any advise... Anyone else can help Rattus?

Maybe Google "multidisciplinary team" along with Anorexia and Autism?


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The Broad Autism Phenotype Test: You scored 132 aloof, 126 rigid and 132 pragmatic. IQ: 139. AQ: 45/50


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12 Aug 2012, 3:25 pm

Girls, I struggled with bulimia for years.

Now, for a long time though it seems to be OK though.

What got me out of that was not using the scales at all.

I just look at my legs and try my clothes how it fits.
Plus...drink lots of water.
-With apple vinegar. Morning and evening.



Bubbles137
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13 Aug 2012, 12:25 am

Rattus wrote:
I'm on the low end of normal (around 19) which is far too high in the UK. The problem is that I have had a lot of ED help for the wrong diagnosis (I was diagnosed as having BPD/AvPD traits by a psychiatrist who met me for less than 5 minutes) and was treated as being a manipulative time waster. Now it's been realised that it's ASD and not a PD, I am on a 14 month waiting list for an assessment. (it's been verified by a psychiatrist and my psychotherapist who has worked with me for 3+ years and used to work with people and families of those on the Autistic Spectrum).
However, the ED team can't work with anything but the ED, the day centre can't work with the ASD aspects of the ED. I can go to the ED day centre but will be asked to leave if I use any ED behaviours, refuse anything of any meal, use any of the banned table behaviours etc. Everything has to be discussed in groups and nothing can be discussed on a one to one basis with the people who work there.
1) I have massive social difficulties (clearly) so discussing anything as a group is very very difficult.
2) The sensory issues mean I have a long history of going fairly bonkers in groups.
3) ED's are part of my special interest and I have a horrible habit of dominating groups to a truly ASD level. People tend to get pretty mad and I get very embarressed.
4) Whilst I clearly have ED aspects to my ED, an awful lot of it (2/3) is ASD, numbers and sensory issues being overriding.
5) when I panic I meltdown and that means at a table infront of food when I have to eat it in a weird way (I don't like things touching, I hate foods mixing and I like numbers) I am even more likely to meltdown.
6) I won't be allowed to do any physical stims because they will see it as calorie burning. I will not be allowed to rock or pace or leg bounce or jiggle or do any of those things that calm me down.

I'm screwed.

I'm so sorry, I've totally highjacked this. I'm really sorry.


i know the feeling about BMI being too high for help, that's kind of where I am atm too and it really doesn't help that I find it hard expressing what I'm feeling (and I can't talk in groups either). I never really saw anyone in a group situation except as an inpatient (and the main reason I self-discharged was because I couldn't cope with the social/group side of it), that must be really hard if that's the only help you can get. I also have the same experience of most of my ED being ASD related, and that makes it really hard fro an ED team to help, which is the situation I'm in atm. Sorry this doesn't help much but am in a similar sitution!