All the problems with Christianity
15 Jul 2013, 10:13 am
CSBurks wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
They conveniently blame the snake for the fall.Oooh,that mean ol' snake made me do it.
It didn't make them steal that fruit and indulge,they had free will.This has led to lots of snake bashing by Christians.
It didn't make them steal that fruit and indulge,they had free will.This has led to lots of snake bashing by Christians.
It was God who lied, not the snake. See Genesis 2-3.
To the OP,
You have no evidence. Using Hitchens' razor--that which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
It is amazing how many people miss the fact that it was God who lied, while the snake was telling the truth.
People also like to say that sin entered the world through the fall. That is discredited by the story itself. The snake was being disobedient to God by tempting adam and eve to eat the apple. Disobedience to God is a sin. Therefore sin existed in the world before the fall.
15 Jul 2013, 10:18 am
Why did God want Adam to marry and have intercourse with animals? I for one am glad that Adam found none of them suitable and forced God to make woman or else God would have subjected us to beastiality for ever.
Quote:
18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” 19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
Seriously he brought all the animals to Adam to find one that was suitable to unite with. Phew!
15 Jul 2013, 10:21 am
The OP seems to rely on numerology to "prove" his thesis, when he would be better off to focus on "proving" the scientific and historical inerrancy of the Bible.
All the problems with Christianity would end if only Christians would stop trying to "reason" belief into other people, get up off their self-righteous butts, get out into the Missions Field and actually DEMONSTRATE the love that Jesus was trying to teach them!
15 Jul 2013, 10:35 am
It appears we've hit a dead end with this argument. We're each convinced the other person has missed something, so maybe we should let some other people voice their objections before this thread gets old and people stop posting on it.
Speaking of which, pain and evil is a problem many people bring up with the idea of an all-powerful and wise God. There are 2 things to keep in mind:
1) Humans are the greatest of all the living things on Earth. We are in a position above everything else in it. When the first people sinned, they used what God created in a way it was not meant to be used. It would only make sense then that the world was affected negatively. And since humans exist in the same world as everything else, we suffered negative effects as well. This is why there is evil in the world
2) It is a fallacy to say that God must not have the best intentions for us because there is evil in the world. This would be like saying that He must have the best intentions for us because there is good in the world; we can't focus on one and ignore the other. There is at least one reason to believe God wants the best for us: If He didn't, He wouldn't have created us in the first place.
15 Jul 2013, 11:05 am
truth15ful wrote:
Nambo:
But there is of course a true Christianity
But there is of course a true Christianity
That video looks interesting Truth15ful.
This true Christianity, can you point me to it please, maybe a website, or even PM me, I cannot find a single religion that doesn't deviate somewhere significantly from the Bible, I know Jesus said the Great Apostasy come first, but as we are also admonished not to forsake the gathering of ourselves together, I would like to know where to go.
15 Jul 2013, 11:10 am
Fnord wrote:
The OP seems to rely on numerology to "prove" his thesis, when he would be better off to focus on "proving" the scientific and historical inerrancy of the Bible.
All the problems with Christianity would end if only Christians would stop trying to "reason" belief into other people, get up off their self-righteous butts, get out into the Missions Field and actually DEMONSTRATE the love that Jesus was trying to teach them!
All the problems with Christianity would end if only Christians would stop trying to "reason" belief into other people, get up off their self-righteous butts, get out into the Missions Field and actually DEMONSTRATE the love that Jesus was trying to teach them!
Do you think a strong faith should be invested in conversion of other people? That a Christian who's come to church is "done" with himself and just needs to point the rest to the source of happiness?
15 Jul 2013, 11:36 am
truth15ful wrote:
1) Humans are the greatest of all the living things on Earth. We are in a position above everything else in it. When the first people sinned, they used what God created in a way it was not meant to be used. It would only make sense then that the world was affected negatively. And since humans exist in the same world as everything else, we suffered negative effects as well. This is why there is evil in the world
By making this statement, you are saying that you believe in the 6 day creation story as six literal days and not evolution or even theistic evolution. Or you haven't thought it through.
There has been suffering and disasters for billions of years on this planet before humans even existed. Animals eating animals, animals suffering and dying from diseases, earthquakes, tsumani's, killer storms. The earth was a very hostile and deadly place full of suffering before man even existed.
So if you choose to blame all the evil and suffering on man's sin, then you can't explain how suffering and evil existed for billions of years before man.
There is also nothing to indicate that we are 'in the top position above everything else.' In fact, the way we are polluting the planet, it may be better off without us. heck, we are not even on the top of the food chain.
Last edited by Cash__ on 15 Jul 2013, 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
15 Jul 2013, 11:38 am
truth15ful wrote:
It appears we've hit a dead end with this argument. We're each convinced the other person has missed something, so maybe we should let some other people voice their objections before this thread gets old and people stop posting on it.
Speaking of which, pain and evil is a problem many people bring up with the idea of an all-powerful and wise God. There are 2 things to keep in mind:
1) Humans are the greatest of all the living things on Earth. We are in a position above everything else in it. When the first people sinned, they used what God created in a way it was not meant to be used. It would only make sense then that the world was affected negatively. And since humans exist in the same world as everything else, we suffered negative effects as well. This is why there is evil in the world
Speaking of which, pain and evil is a problem many people bring up with the idea of an all-powerful and wise God. There are 2 things to keep in mind:
1) Humans are the greatest of all the living things on Earth. We are in a position above everything else in it. When the first people sinned, they used what God created in a way it was not meant to be used. It would only make sense then that the world was affected negatively. And since humans exist in the same world as everything else, we suffered negative effects as well. This is why there is evil in the world
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxc830XrLCc[/youtube]
Exploronaut wrote:
If we were created perfectly in the image of God, then why were we capable of sinning and messing everything up in the first place?
truth15ful wrote:
2) It is a fallacy to say that God must not have the best intentions for us because there is evil in the world. This would be like saying that He must have the best intentions for us because there is good in the world; we can't focus on one and ignore the other. There is at least one reason to believe God wants the best for us: If He didn't, He wouldn't have created us in the first place.
The good stuff does not make the bad stuff go away.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vweSLmSgO-k[/youtube]
One more thing in regard to this "good or bad"-issue:
Quote:
Religion has convinced people that there's an invisible man ... living in the sky. Who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn't want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer, and suffer, and burn, and scream, until the end of time. But he loves you.
~George Carlin
~George Carlin
_________________
Reality is an illusion.
15 Jul 2013, 12:17 pm
TheValk wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The OP seems to rely on numerology to "prove" his thesis, when he would be better off to focus on "proving" the scientific and historical inerrancy of the Bible. All the problems with Christianity would end if only Christians would stop trying to "reason" belief into other people, get up off their self-righteous butts, get out into the Missions Field and actually DEMONSTRATE the love that Jesus was trying to teach them!
Do you think a strong faith should be invested in conversion of other people?Not specifically; but if the religion associated with that faith requires charitable giving and serving the needs of others, then the faith is being wasted in trying to convert people directly - especially through "reason", and most especially by trying to "reason" with people who know better.
TheValk wrote:
That a Christian who's come to church is "done" with himself and just needs to point the rest to the source of happiness?
No. That attracts only those people who are looking to be happy; and when Christianity no longer makes them happy, they will leave the church to find happiness elsewhere.
15 Jul 2013, 10:45 pm
truth15ful wrote:
It appears we've hit a dead end with this argument. We're each convinced the other person has missed something, so maybe we should let some other people voice their objections before this thread gets old and people stop posting on it.
I'm not that concerned if this thread dies. I agree with Tallyman's statement though:
Tallyman wrote:
That is the weakest and worst "argument" that I've ever come across for the existence of a god. If that's all you've got I'd give it up as a lost cause.
So I am not labeling this a matter of indifference where we're not sure about how this plays out. Time delay is exactly what a computational device would do. This argument fails to make the case.
Quote:
1) Humans are the greatest of all the living things on Earth. We are in a position above everything else in it. When the first people sinned, they used what God created in a way it was not meant to be used. It would only make sense then that the world was affected negatively. And since humans exist in the same world as everything else, we suffered negative effects as well. This is why there is evil in the world
Right, but what do you mean by "first people sinned". If it's Adam and Eve, then I've already addressed how the story can't be true: http://biologos.org/blog/does-genetics- ... mal-couple
Even further as Cash___ points out earlier, there are a lot of instances of bad things in the world that look like they would have happened long before sin would have occurred. I mean, unless you're going to blame sin for altering the laws of physics such that tornadoes, hurricanes, and earthquakes occur, then those would have existed before the first sin.
I also don't think that the sort of free will you'd want to explain sin exists in reality, even in the theology. So, in the neuroscience of this there are a slew of reasons to doubt that human beings express a non-deterministic will, and if they do not, then the independent actions of man are not a good explanation, the ultimate cause of evil would be God. Even within Christian theology though, it's hard to see how human beings actually exercise independent agency if they exist within God's plan and act to enact that plan, as this God will have set up all of the dominoes such that the desired conclusion will occur. So, if God is so much in control of the situation that he can enact a plan, to what extent can we separate him out to not make him the author of evil? It seems to me that any being with enough power to implement a plan would also have to have some culpability if this plan has a bad outcome.
Quote:
2) It is a fallacy to say that God must not have the best intentions for us because there is evil in the world. This would be like saying that He must have the best intentions for us because there is good in the world; we can't focus on one and ignore the other. There is at least one reason to believe God wants the best for us: If He didn't, He wouldn't have created us in the first place.
Err... no, the symmetry does not exist.
So, if there is unnecessary and unjustified evil, then this is proof that he cannot have the best intentions, as the best intentions tend to entail the non-existence of unnecessary and unjustified evils. However, the existence of good leading to the best intentions is just a faulty deduction, as good is evidence but only insufficient evidence.
Also, I am not failing at my focus at all. My point is really that this God is described as perfectly good. The world seems to not be what we would intuitively expect for a perfectly good being at all, or even in the ballpark. It is qualitatively flawed in ways that are not well explained.
Finally, your last reason... doesn't actually prove anything. People make kids all of the time and sometimes for bad or stupid reasons. And some visions of God don't involve God wanting the best for us, so a Calvinist God has made some people from the beginning just to damn them. This isn't for their good, but it is about as logically compatible with the facts of the universe as normal Christianity.
16 Jul 2013, 12:19 am
truth15ful wrote:
Awesomelyglorious: It's been a couple months since I made the video, but let me try to put it into words again:
As humans, we have the ability to think and reason. For example, f I ask you what 2+2 is, immediately you'll be able to say 4. But this ability must depend on someone else. You see, if this ability really belonged to us, we would be able to use it whenever we wanted and as much as we wanted. For example, if I asked you what 18142+14211 is, you could immediately say 32353. It takes no extra knowledge or greater understanding to solve the second problem than the first one, but somehow the longer one takes more time. That's why there must be some higher power to give us this ability.
As humans, we have the ability to think and reason. For example, f I ask you what 2+2 is, immediately you'll be able to say 4. But this ability must depend on someone else. You see, if this ability really belonged to us, we would be able to use it whenever we wanted and as much as we wanted. For example, if I asked you what 18142+14211 is, you could immediately say 32353. It takes no extra knowledge or greater understanding to solve the second problem than the first one, but somehow the longer one takes more time. That's why there must be some higher power to give us this ability.
There is but it belongs to no book, no religion, or no man. It is free for everyone.
Christianity that restricts true will to path of that light of true Christ that exists, is the greatest offense anyone could apply to their brother/sister.
The walls of those restrictions are falling down forever in the E-World.
The chains that man attempts to put on the one true light are breaking as we speak.
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16 Jul 2013, 1:28 am
truth15ful wrote:
2) It is a fallacy to say that God must not have the best intentions for us because there is evil in the world. This would be like saying that He must have the best intentions for us because there is good in the world; we can't focus on one and ignore the other. There is at least one reason to believe God wants the best for us: If He didn't, He wouldn't have created us in the first place.
I don't see how it is a fallacy. Disregarding the extreme likelihood that "good" and "evil" are both a matter of human opinion, if there is evil in the world, then one cannot say that God (assuming he exists) must therefore have the best intentions for us, as a world without evil is logically better than a world with evil.
If you believe that evil exists, then God does not have the best intentions for us.
If you believe that good exists, then it still doesn't mean that God has the best intentions for us because of the idea that evil still exists alongside good.
16 Jul 2013, 2:25 am
MCalavera wrote:
truth15ful wrote:
2) It is a fallacy to say that God must not have the best intentions for us because there is evil in the world. This would be like saying that He must have the best intentions for us because there is good in the world; we can't focus on one and ignore the other. There is at least one reason to believe God wants the best for us: If He didn't, He wouldn't have created us in the first place.
I don't see how it is a fallacy. Disregarding the extreme likelihood that "good" and "evil" are both a matter of human opinion, if there is evil in the world, then one cannot say that God (assuming he exists) must therefore have the best intentions for us, as a world without evil is logically better than a world with evil.
If you believe that evil exists, then God does not have the best intentions for us.
If you believe that good exists, then it still doesn't mean that God has the best intentions for us because of the idea that evil still exists alongside good.
It comes down to smallestunits... existencelife...positivenegativepositive...actionconsequenceaction...humans apply the emotion of imagination to reality.
Humans create their Gods and Devils as an amusementpasstimeinspiration to continue I ON. There is...no 1 in the E Y E of all there is...no E Y E in the 1 of I.
_________________
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Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !
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16 Jul 2013, 2:30 am
MCalavera wrote:
truth15ful wrote:
2) It is a fallacy to say that God must not have the best intentions for us because there is evil in the world. This would be like saying that He must have the best intentions for us because there is good in the world; we can't focus on one and ignore the other. There is at least one reason to believe God wants the best for us: If He didn't, He wouldn't have created us in the first place.
I don't see how it is a fallacy. Disregarding the extreme likelihood that "good" and "evil" are both a matter of human opinion, if there is evil in the world, then one cannot say that God (assuming he exists) must therefore have the best intentions for us, as a world without evil is logically better than a world with evil.
If you believe that evil exists, then God does not have the best intentions for us.
If you believe that good exists, then it still doesn't mean that God has the best intentions for us because of the idea that evil still exists alongside good.
Just like 'God', neither good nor evil exist except in terms of human definition.
16 Jul 2013, 10:24 am
truth15ful wrote:
Hi everyone,
There are a lot of misconceptions about religion and especially about Christianity. I'd like to see if I can set the record straight. So this thread is for you guys to post any problems or objections to Christianity, and I'll try to answer them the best I can.
There are a lot of misconceptions about religion and especially about Christianity. I'd like to see if I can set the record straight. So this thread is for you guys to post any problems or objections to Christianity, and I'll try to answer them the best I can.
truth15ful, thank you for posting this thread! I think it is much needed and that you are doing a great job!
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