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Ettina
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12 Aug 2013, 11:38 am

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But does that mean society must accept creepy stalking behavior? Bad hygiene? No care for appearance? Racism and sexism? What exactly is it that society is supposed to tolerate?


Racism, sexism and creepy stalker behavior have nothing to do with AS. They just mean you're a jerk.

As for bad hygiene and not caring about your appearance, what makes that so terrible that it warrants leaving them to die? I can see not wanting to be in close physical proximity to someone like that, but other than that it's really none of your business how often someone else bathes. It's just body odour - it's not going to kill you.

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d. rude or odd behavior that makes others uncomfortable


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D: plain old bad behavior


Define 'rude or odd behavior'.

A lot of 'rudeness' among people with AS is inability to read the unwritten rules of social interaction - which is a genuine disability.

For example, when I bought a drink at a store and commented that the drink was overpriced because I could get it cheaper at the drink machine, it never occurred to me that the store worker might take offense at it. (I still don't really get why she got mad about it - she didn't set the prices, after all.) If the average NT would've known not to say that, then my rudeness was due to my disability, because I honestly didn't know.

And as for odd behavior - what's so terrible about being different? If it's unusual but harms no one, then there is no good reason to penalize people for it.

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The white South Africans are the scum of the earth, which is why the Netherlands is such a great place. You literally deported all your scum.


Have you actually met any white South Africans? Have you heard anything about South Africa after apartheid?

The white South Africans I've met were very nice people, and were shocked to discover that the average white Canadian is more racist than the average white South African. They had a bad patch in their history, but they've moved on from it. They are not inherently bad people.

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You forget that I am diagnosed on the spectrum too. Sexually abused, dirt poor family, language delay, no support as a child other than severe beatings for bad behavior, severe learning disability (NLD and ADHD), bad co-morbids (PTSD, personality disorders, bipolar), actively deprived of social contacts until age 18 due to growing up in a cult, sleep disorder, yet I still am not a freeloader, and I trained myself to learn proper conduct in the work place. If I can do it, anybody can do it.


I thought you said you disagreed with your AS diagnosis? If you think you were misdiagnosed, you can't turn around and claim someone who really has the condition can do what you can do.

And even if you do have AS, you won't have every single challenge that any other AS person has. For example, many AS people have OK executive functions. My executive functions are severely impaired. I have met people who have a lot more difficulty in social interaction than I do, but who can do things that are completely impossible for me, because they don't have executive dysfunction.

And no one ever seems to take executive dysfunction seriously. It is very disabling, but on the outside it looks exactly like laziness, so instead of getting the help we need, people like me get called names and told to get off our butts and do stuff. Which is like telling a deaf person that they need to listen harder. The part of the brain that allows people to go 'I don't like it but I'll do it anyway' is broken in me. If I try to do something I really don't want to do, I end up getting distracted by everything, spacing out for long chunks of time, and finally getting too overloaded to continue. And then people act like this is a choice for me, when it would be much easier for me to choose to just get the thing done and go on to something else. I'm not stupid, I know acting this way prolongs the misery, but I do not have control over the amount of effort I put into a task.



cubedemon6073
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12 Aug 2013, 12:16 pm

littlebee wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
littlebee wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
Ann2011 wrote:
Gosh, this movie is popping up all over the place. I think I will have to watch it. The protagonist ends his speech with this: "Why have a civilization anymore, if we aren't interested in being civilized."
I think this is a good point. With regard to this discussion, if we give up things that make us civilized (like caring for those less fortunate,) we give up on what makes us great.


Ann, I don't think any of us here disagree. And since I seem to recall you saying you went out and found a job yourself, I don't think any of us disagree with you either. I think what we can all agree on is that anybody capable of working should do so, and society should take care of those genuinely unable to work. Being humane is part of what makes Western societies great.

I admire your writing, the way you put material together, articulate concepts, and in general I agree with what you are saying, except in my opinion the key point which you seem to be missing is that each person needs to develop the capacity for empathy within himself, and doing this will inspire others to do so: in short, it does not come from the outside but from within oneself, and this is what will transform the minds and hearts of human beings, society is not an actual person but an abstraction, a personification, so I see here a premature reconciliation, as those with gripes who are playing the aspie card for internal psychological reasons they are not even consciously aware of will not stop doing so because of saying we are all in agreement. In this case consensus does not solve the problem.

So what is work? Is it just a job or could it be actively trying to struggle against mechanical tendencies in oneself?




I think the aspie's existential dilemma is that we can't live without our society, but we can't live with it either. To be successful, our important life decisions must be shaped by this dynamic. In other words, we have a hard time dealing with society, but we can't live without the things it provides. Since we are all unique and different, I think the negotiation of this dilemma will be different for each aspie. Along with me, there are a lot of other aspies here at WP who have successfully negotiated this dilemma and are fully self-supporting.

Again, what I condemn is free trade that allows jobs that aspies, among others need. Until we bring the jobs back, this conversation is ultimately academic anyway. Nobody can take a job that's not there.


Whoo boy...ha ha...so you are saying that the reason certain aspie whiners who are blaming their situation on other people who are more adjusted (such as so called mean, insensitive n.t's) do not have a job because of something to do with free trade???

How about they do not have a job because they are blaming their situation on other people???

Also you are saying this discussion is merely academic because no jobs exist to be taken by these people anyway, with the implication that if there are jobs these people would step up to the plate (and be hired)..

How about this for a starter? I suggest that every aspie who does not have a job does some kind of volunteer work forty hours a week until someone offers him or her a paid job, and I do think a job eventually will be offered to many of the people who do this.

You say each person is individual and so has to solve his problem for himself. I would agree, of course. However, group trends and tendencies will affect how an individual person will behave, and a good example is not being set by these whiners for new young people who are coming to this website looking for help. Rather they are encouraged by many to blame their problems on other people. I understand I am making this kind of black and white to illustrate a point, but I am open to in depth enquiry into this subject from many different angles.. I also realize Tyrion made it kind of black and white, but in his case, if people can make the whole world into nt's and aspies and that is okay, then he can do that kind of thing, too. As I said, fight fire with fire, but do not burn down the house:-)

To the people who are going through emotional suffering from being bullied and discriminated against in various ways by other people, this is in no way intended to discount the suffering that you are experiencing or the fact that people can sometimes be very cruel and unsympathetic, especially to people who do not fit in to their own notion idea of what people should be like.


Okay littlebee, lets look at it from this angle.

Unless I am misunderstanding you, you seem to see the benchmark is society itself. Is this correct?

Now, is it ever possible for the benchmark to be flawed?

Is there ever a legitimate case in which one can blame a given society for his problems? If not why not? What is your reasoning?

How does one truthfully tell what the causation for the problem's of the individual? How does one tell if it is society is at fault, the individual is at fault, a combo of both of these, or some other cause? Can we discuss the concept of blaming others and this being captain of one's own ship? Can we put this under examination? Are you willing to do that?

A inmate in a concentration camp has problems because of his society does not? Why isn't the inmate allowed to blame this society including the 3rd Reich?

How is it logically possible for all of a problems of a given individual to be their fault if their control over their environment is limited. Does any human being have absolute control over time and space? If no one does then how is it logically possible for a single person to know every single possible variable that could crop up and then take charge of it?

From what I read of what you say you have this extreme belief in internal locus of control. This is one of the standards of America today. What I ask is how does it logically hold up to the level that you and most Americans hold it up to?



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12 Aug 2013, 12:17 pm

One way to tell difference between whiners and non-whiners is to see what their response is when you give them with some practical suggestions for improving their lives in thread in which they brought up one of their problems. If they consider some of the suggestions as things that they could try in life, then they are not whiner, but if they reply to suggestions with long posts about all the reasons that they can't try suggestion A, then another for B, then another for C, then they are whiner, because their only purpose was to whine and get attention that must somehow be rewarding and feel good, although I don't unbersmand why it would, if problem still has no vestige of solution.


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12 Aug 2013, 12:22 pm

Ettina wrote:

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And no one ever seems to take executive dysfunction seriously. It is very disabling, but on the outside it looks exactly like laziness, so instead of getting the help we need, people like me get called names and told to get off our butts and do stuff. Which is like telling a deaf person that they need to listen harder. The part of the brain that allows people to go 'I don't like it but I'll do it anyway' is broken in me. If I try to do something I really don't want to do, I end up getting distracted by everything, spacing out for long chunks of time, and finally getting too overloaded to continue. And then people act like this is a choice for me, when it would be much easier for me to choose to just get the thing done and go on to something else. I'm not stupid, I know acting this way prolongs the misery, but I do not have control over the amount of effort I put into a task
.
Ettina, I have executive dysfunction sometimes, too, pretty severe, and that is a horrible feeling of despair and confusion and helplessness.. You have made some really good points to Tryrion. Now how about applying some of this energy to figuring out why you have executive dysfunction? I bet you think you were just born this way. If you do think this, then I see no way out and yes, society should take care of you. However, if you think it is because you are born this way and society does accept this and takes care of you, then this reinforces the position that there is no way out, and I think there is a way out..

Actually after reading your message I do now see the point the librarian was making about free trade, as the situation re individual adjustment probably needs to be tackled from a different angle than the way Tyrion has attempted to. I think she has a very high IQ. .However, I still like this thread and think Tyrion has done some interesting work, the point being that folks think they can deal in ridiculous broad generalizations about their condition and nt's but when someone else such as Tyrion or "society" does it with a slant that does not suit them, then they take umbrage....

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I thought you said you disagreed with your AS diagnosis? If you think you were misdiagnosed, you can't turn around and claim someone who really has the condition can dowhat you can do.

Yeah he can. If you can have executive dysfunction in one situation but then do not have it in another, such as when you are quite elaborately and clearly figuring him out.. Imo same principle applies:-)..So something or other about having free trade or not have free trade applies....end of problem, as the problem just IS.....ha de ha...



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12 Aug 2013, 12:29 pm

btbnnyr wrote:
One way to tell difference between whiners and non-whiners is to see what their response is when you give them with some practical suggestions for improving their lives in thread in which they brought up one of their problems. If they consider some of the suggestions as things that they could try in life, then they are not whiner, but if they reply to suggestions with long posts about all the reasons that they can't try suggestion A, then another for B, then another for C, then they are whiner, because their only purpose was to whine and get attention that must somehow be rewarding and feel good, although I don't unbersmand why it would, if problem still has no vestige of solution.


Or they could be severely depressed and have a very hopeless view in general.



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12 Aug 2013, 12:31 pm

Rascal77s wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
One way to tell difference between whiners and non-whiners is to see what their response is when you give them with some practical suggestions for improving their lives in thread in which they brought up one of their problems. If they consider some of the suggestions as things that they could try in life, then they are not whiner, but if they reply to suggestions with long posts about all the reasons that they can't try suggestion A, then another for B, then another for C, then they are whiner, because their only purpose was to whine and get attention that must somehow be rewarding and feel good, although I don't unbersmand why it would, if problem still has no vestige of solution.


Or they could be severely depressed and have a very hopeless view in general.


Or they could really not understand the suggestions - and what the person views as practical suggestions to them might be meaningless ramblings.



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12 Aug 2013, 12:35 pm

Tuttle wrote:
Rascal77s wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
One way to tell difference between whiners and non-whiners is to see what their response is when you give them with some practical suggestions for improving their lives in thread in which they brought up one of their problems. If they consider some of the suggestions as things that they could try in life, then they are not whiner, but if they reply to suggestions with long posts about all the reasons that they can't try suggestion A, then another for B, then another for C, then they are whiner, because their only purpose was to whine and get attention that must somehow be rewarding and feel good, although I don't unbersmand why it would, if problem still has no vestige of solution.


Or they could be severely depressed and have a very hopeless view in general.


Or they could really not understand the suggestions - and what the person views as practical suggestions to them might be meaningless ramblings.


The depression hypothesis is very plausible, and this person should get help for depression, free help if they or people who support them can't afford it.

The second less so, based on eggsamples that I have observed on wp, because the person usually understands the nature of the suggestions and writes long responses to why they are not at all workable or worth trying, and sometimes during the responses, does the very things that they say that they can't do.


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12 Aug 2013, 12:45 pm

I don't think it'd explain every situation. But I think it can explain some. I know there's someone on another forum who's convinced I'm a whiner, because I cannot understand any explanation of any "practical suggestion" she has. They all only are to me "if you only just tried and you wouldn't be autistic"

Apparently some people get information from what she says, but I can't get anything from what she says. But because I don't do things, and respond saying her suggestions are useless, I've turned into a whiner. Even though its not that I'm not trying, its that I really don't get any information from her.

Similarly sometimes, the steps people suggest are too far - someone telling me to volunteer 40 hours a week - that's not a thing I can do.

On the other hand, volunteering 10 hours a week. That's a thing I can do. So I can start there. But, if I just said "I can't do it", it'd come off wrong. Because it was someone overworking me. Expecting too much, because of different people having different requirements.


However, I completely agree that it doesn't explain all of them, but I think it can explain some situations.



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12 Aug 2013, 1:42 pm

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...I don't think it'd explain every situation. But I think it can explain some. I know there's someone

On the other hand, volunteering 10 hours a week. That's a thing I can do. So I can start there. But, if I just said "I can't do it", it'd come off wrong. Because it was someone overworking me. Expecting too much, because of different people having different requirements...
.

Tuttle, yes, my comment about doing volunteer work forty hours a week was definitely over the wall. I do not know if you are one of the people who plays the aspei--nt card as I have not read many of your messages and do not recall, but if you are, or even if you are not, then apply this same line of reasoning there to yourself and/or to those who are doing it....I really like your thoughtful message as it points out things cannot be sorted out by making these kind of broad generalizations such as the one I made, which I suspect is one thing Tyrion was trying to point to as right before he made this thread he made this point in another discussion called "Neurotypical Privilege," which I will be going back to eventually, Personally I think Tyrion is a genius.....Maybe I am reading into this thread but it seems the main point he is making is about sorting and grading...so how does one sort out sorting and grading---by sorting and grading, but in communicating with others sometimes it needs to be done in such a way that stands out, or things will just get carded into the same old grove. As I see it, he intuitively understands this.....littlebee



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12 Aug 2013, 2:53 pm

Going back to the original topic - I've noticed parents of Autistic children are worse than Autistic adults. I post on a Facebook group which is mostly full of parents with Autistic children and there's a lot of "how do I get this and that?"

There was one moaning because they only got one night per week respite. My parents were never offered such luxury with 2 disabled children and another child. (who they thought was disabled; but there's nothing wrong with her) We also never received a free holiday or any other assistance either. We were just left to get on with it.



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12 Aug 2013, 5:07 pm

Tuttle wrote:
Rascal77s wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
One way to tell difference between whiners and non-whiners is to see what their response is when you give them with some practical suggestions for improving their lives in thread in which they brought up one of their problems. If they consider some of the suggestions as things that they could try in life, then they are not whiner, but if they reply to suggestions with long posts about all the reasons that they can't try suggestion A, then another for B, then another for C, then they are whiner, because their only purpose was to whine and get attention that must somehow be rewarding and feel good, although I don't unbersmand why it would, if problem still has no vestige of solution.


Or they could be severely depressed and have a very hopeless view in general.


Or they could really not understand the suggestions - and what the person views as practical suggestions to them might be meaningless ramblings.


Or maybe they have additional knowledge of the situation which makes the advice impractical, which is why they're writing a long post explaining it.
Maybe they _have_ tried all the proposed solutions and are still hoping for a viable one. Just because all the generic advice that is given to someone is rejected doesn't make them a "whiner".

Maybe people should examine their need to call all people with difficult problems that aren't solved by advice that was typed up in five minutes whiners.


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12 Aug 2013, 5:08 pm

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How about this for a starter? I suggest that every aspie who does not have a job does some kind of volunteer work forty hours a week until someone offers him or her a paid job, and I do think a job eventually will be offered to many of the people who do this.


How do you volunteer forty hours a week? All the volunteer positions I've had don't take forty hours a week. Except for the humane society (I could spend as much time as I want there) but asthma and transportation issues limit the time I can volunteer there. (If I spend too long there, I get short of breath from cat & dog dander, and plus I can only get there with help from my Dad, who works full-time.)



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12 Aug 2013, 5:11 pm

btbnnyr wrote:
The depression hypothesis is very plausible, and this person should get help for depression, free help if they or people who support them can't afford it.


People like to make this statement "get help" and ignore the fact that depression is usually not easily fixed, especially in cases where the depression is linked with long-lasting and dissatisfying life circumstances.


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12 Aug 2013, 5:14 pm

Indeed. I've been working on my major depression for the past three years now, and while it has noticeably improved, it is still present. It is also extremely difficult - when I am in a depressive period - for me to muster the motivation to do much to get out of it.

Fortunately, I have some coping mechanisms that can make it easier to mitigate these periods. However, if the other supports I currently have in place disappear, then the coping mechanisms may not work any longer.



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12 Aug 2013, 5:24 pm

Ettina wrote:
Quote:
How about this for a starter? I suggest that every aspie who does not have a job does some kind of volunteer work forty hours a week until someone offers him or her a paid job, and I do think a job eventually will be offered to many of the people who do this.


How do you volunteer forty hours a week? All the volunteer positions I've had don't take forty hours a week. Except for the humane society (I could spend as much time as I want there) but asthma and transportation issues limit the time I can volunteer there. (If I spend too long there, I get short of breath from cat & dog dander, and plus I can only get there with help from my Dad, who works full-time.)


And as your asthma example demonstrates, volunteering may not get around the issues that interfere with being able to work. I can't be around barking dogs for forty hours a week, for example, which makes volunteering at the humane society a bit problematic. And I'd love to volunteer there...but not for forty hours.

Other places may have other issues. I don't believe there's a simple solution, nor do I think that most people diagnosed AS are either unemployed or underemployed (wishful fantasies about vast populations of unidentified/undiagnosed employed, "successful" aspies notwithstanding) because they're too lazy or too entitled to work.

littlebee:

Tyri0n's provocative. He may or may not be a genius, but he makes controversial posts that appear intended to provoke responses. He has said that he does as much in the past when discussing the possibility of personality disorder. I was not actually being sarcastic or joking or making things up when I mentioned the "child abuse cures autism" thing - that was something he suggested in the past, whether or not he would describe it as child abuse.